00:00.18

Steven Bagatourian

Hey, everybody welcome to comics rot your brain. Ah the show where professional screenwriters talk about the comic books that we love mostly from the nineteen eighty s. And I am 1 of your hosts I'm stephen baggtorian.

00:18.43

cbderrick

And I'm your other host Chris derrick.

00:21.75

Steven Bagatourian

And Chris How is it that we find ourselves doing this ah this oddly specific little show about Comic Books This is ah this is an interesting life decision. We've made to do this with our time.

00:36.20

cbderrick

Well I mean you know you brought this up to me and what fascinated me about it is. We're getting. We're talking about Comic books that were seminal to us as young comic fans in the eighty s but I think that because of our tastes and what typically gets covered in comics is always the same type of comics. So. There's not really like there's not like a wide spectrum of comics that are discussed on a lot of podcasts. People. They're either talking about new stuff that's come out every week or they talk about like these modern comics where they might be getting people who are current. You know like current ah like like alist people or some previous a-list people and you know from from earlier decades and talking with them. But I feel like we're talking about stuff that is truly. You know like mitch stuff by primarily stuff that is off the rails kind of stuff ah books that don't have a lot of vocal fans. You know, describing a lot of fans but not a lot of vocal fans and ah and to me I thought okay cool. We we can talk about stuff because look we've recorded a bunch of these ahead of time and it's all books that like I don't know how people talk about them and and and I think the read and and and going back to revisit them.

01:52.70

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah, absolutely yes.

02:12.30

cbderrick

See if they hold up to see what is interesting about them still to see what at the time was probably some of the stuff we looked at is like like the thriller book is still revolutionary to this day and I don't think people it I mean it's I think yeah, it's kind of like.

02:25.38

Steven Bagatourian

Um, oh yeah, absolutely.

02:32.13

cbderrick

You know? yeah like we were talking just before we got online about how the internet covers a lot of stuff right? But the internet actually focuses things it it it it narrows everything I think that that that there's stuff that stays um, look. There's a website for everything that people are interested in on on your internet. But you but but if you go on youtube where you go on these things people usually talk about the same material constantly like like like if you're on youtube and your film fan There's so many things about us now. Kubrick is not even funny but is anyone talking about Sam fuller. No.

02:56.65

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah.

03:04.56

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah, right? yes.

03:10.62

cbderrick

You know and they should you know like why? not ah is people talking about Sam peck apaw no and they should and and and why not and it's you know I I think that I think that those people that their work you know is just as important. It just doesn't have. You know there's a few films all of a sudden just people just gravitate to and then all of a sudden. It's like oh my god like that's the most amazing like film artist there is but you know I mean I mean I remember for a long time like I remember back when I was studying film like people talk about jean- lugidar and they talk about like amar bergman. And you never hear about these guys today. Absolutely never and it's a shame and it's just like I think the books that that we'll be talking about in this podcast are books in series or so or or runs on stuff that were shocking and original and. And shaped how we look at comics going forward because the mainstream stuff and these are all like it's not like you know like these you know like porno comic stuff like that. But it's set this primarily published by dc draw course or Marvel when they had the opportunity and the go-ahead. To do more experimental work that they don't have now and that's what was interesting to me.

04:22.76

Steven Bagatourian

That is yup that is totally true and we're also going to be covering books. Um, like we already have even in the episodes you referred to that we've recorded from some of the indie publishers of that time like your komickos. And your eclipses and your first comics and pacific comics and and whatnot. Um, but I do think the point you just made is 1 that is so um, just really interesting and odd to me that back then even the. So-called mainstream companies. They had this tremendous degree of latitude to just really go nuts in terms of the experimentation that they were able to play with in mainstream comics and I'm thinking specifically of. Jeanette conhan's tenure at dc and chris you and I have talked a lot about Jeanette con. Ah both ah offline and in other episodes but Jeanette conhan she basically was able to steward this unbelievable period of experimentation at dc comics where you had books like wasteland. The insane horror anthology being published along with Frank miller's ronin and just the aforementioned thriller from von eden and fleming and just these crazy books that it's hard to imagine are being published by this major corporation and yet they are. And we we are going to cover 1 of the most insane examples of 1 of those books which is screamer the miniseries. Yeah by by Milligan and ewens and dylan and that book is just 1 of the nastiest most grim dark fucked up comics.

06:02.12

cbderrick

Though for sure for sure.

06:16.70

Steven Bagatourian

You can imagine and I say that in large part as a compliment because I think we both enjoyed the book but it is. It's mind blowing that this was a major corporation publishing that but I think that's an extreme example of the sort of experimentation and and idiosyncratic ah comic booking.

06:19.79

cbderrick

Well for sure.

06:35.59

Steven Bagatourian

That was encouraged during this time period and I think honestly neither you nor I had any idea how could we that we happen to be falling in love with comics during this very Halcyon sort of period where comics were. Quote unquote growing up and that was a big deal in the eighty s but I've been surprised you know over the years how many of these incredible books that to me were such formative reading experiences seem like they've been largely forgotten and lost to the sands of history even in this big. Bold fucking crazy world with the internet that we have where you can go online and sure you can find a few people talking about thriller and maybe a few people talking about some of these other books but it's not like there's that much information or that much discussion and genuinely I think. You know you mentioned to me chris that you were thinking about starting a youtube channel or your brother had mentioned to you about maybe starting a youtube channel to talk about comics and some of the comics that you felt like weren't being covered by other channels or other comics podcasts or anything and that immediately kind of catalyzed. Catalyzed me and as we started talking about doing it together I got really excited because you know you and I are both professional writers and we work in the medium of film largely and and tv as well. But we both have had this enduring passion for comics and. Don't think I'm speaking out of school too much to say that both of us have dabbled very seriously with the idea of of writing comics and even drawing comics and we both have a deep and abiding love for this medium and we want to really just have an excuse to talk about comics on some level and I think this is actually a really. Fun thing for us to be able to go back and look at these books from history because you know when you're a kid growing up reading some of these books some of them might have had a massive impact on you reading them like dc's comic wasteland had a huge impact on me as a kid I didn't know that the book wasn't that particularly popular. I didn't know that it was going to be canceled soon to me that was ah a very defining reading experience and so just because no 1 ne's talking about that book these days and no 1 ne's talking about many of the books we're going to cover I don't think that's a reason they should be forgotten I think these were serious works of comics and popular comics art that were. Often very experimental in this mainstream context and I think they deserve to be reckoned with and remembered and talked about and particularly while while the creators you know, many of them are still alive and I do think that these creators deserve to have their works looked at and treated seriously because.

09:17.96

cbderrick

Well 2 2 things I think we had I can't remember what something we recorded earlier we went we were going through the actual floppy issues and we found like those um you know those house ads about like hey like you know like here's a book or for some nominations or something like that.

09:18.64

Steven Bagatourian

They deserve it.

09:35.61

Steven Bagatourian

Um.

09:37.22

cbderrick

And there's a bunch of books that we're talking about that were up for like you know, like best x of the year kind of thing that aren't talked about anymore now I mean look look. it's it's it's no secret that the books from this time period. Which will call like what the Bronze age of comics is not necessarily the the modern age anymore I feel the modern age like I feel the Bronze I think that I think the demarcation is is when image starts is is for me and I'll get back to that in a second but it's kind of like there's books that are being like hey. You know a book we we want to talk about like like concrete like no 1 talks about that book anymore. But at the time it was like it was the it was the rave book from so many people and it's it's huge and it's like and and for people to not remember it because here's what happens like you know it's.

10:14.34

Steven Bagatourian

Sure. Yeah, oh my God It was huge.

10:29.30

cbderrick

It's easy to say the 80 s is you know dark night watchmen crisis on infinite earth you know a mouse some of those you know like the lecture books that that so that frank miller did the lecture lives like yeah born again and these said.

10:37.56

Steven Bagatourian

Mouse.

10:41.41

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, born again.

10:47.63

cbderrick

Like for assassin you know, obviously batman the year 1 like those are the books that that everyone kind of like gravitates to when they go back and look this period but there's more books. There's more stuff that to me. But here's the thing is interesting. You said like about wasteland like do people. Ah, you thought you loved it and therefore you thought everyone else was reading it. But the thing is the thing that this is something that like I realized like much like maybe in the last 3 or 4 years as a filmmaker there are movies that I watched and loved as you know that help shape how I look at story.

11:06.79

Steven Bagatourian

Yes, yes.

11:23.71

cbderrick

Things like that everything like that I feel no 1 else's what not noizing but but but didn't have the impacts that I thought they would have the way that it impacted me here's a movie called zentropa that large fronture did you know? and honestly I don't know anyone who's talked about that movie in the last twenty years but

11:32.90

Steven Bagatourian

Right.

11:43.70

cbderrick

Ah, it's a fucking amazing movie and it's like some of these comics were talking about are fucking amazing comics that just are like not on people's like tip of their tongues or anything like that but see the thing that we had talked about earlier is you know my theory on what happened in comics is.

11:48.27

Steven Bagatourian

Yes.

12:03.62

cbderrick

When marvel I think ron pearlman bought it and then he piled on so much debt with like with like the toy company and the card company and the distribution company and you know and they did that thing that heroes were born thing that wasn't published through. Regular you know like Marvel um channels because it was that other public that other distribution company I think was but was yeah I can't remember who was was putting it out and it was like so that stuff was exclusive and and outside of the realm of the normal the Marvel continuity but that showed you. After that comics was only about how do we turn the profit with all of this and I'll say that for the share was like it what cause they had so much debt. Ah, he put on so much debt and they went to bankruptcy everything like that and you know and and and it wasn't destroyed and.

12:44.49

Steven Bagatourian

Right for the shareholders.

12:56.51

cbderrick

Marvel wasn't straight and and dc had had been owned by by warbuughs for a you know long time but I felt that they felt too that like we can't be you know, churning out these experimental books the way we did you see did with vertigo but the rest of the stuff wasn't getting like churned out like. Like I don't know like Batman dark night returns would have been like a vertigo book or an else world book you know if it if if it didn't come out when it came out and because I I feel like the the way they had to kind of justify things.

13:24.58

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah.

13:30.57

cbderrick

And like I mean ah look like Marvel had that epic line right? An epic line for people who don't know was that was their creator owned line. They had epic illustrated for a while which is like well like heavy metal and let people just run wild and then they had the epic comics.

13:42.61

Steven Bagatourian

Yep.

13:48.19

cbderrick

Which is books like you know dread star which she which you might talk about on this is and legian and which we're definite going to talk about on this. Um, there was a a few few other a few other comics. Um, there's lot. There's a lot of cool stuff. The wander was originally that.

13:57.29

Steven Bagatourian

There was a lot of lot of cool stuff and even ah grew the wanderer.

14:04.99

cbderrick

I mean but and there was and there was a cu us that's saw a kira was was first shown in in the us but they shut all that down I think that I think they were like we can't afford to do experimental comic the publishing as industry doesn't allow it anymore and I think that is.

14:18.38

Steven Bagatourian

Um, well put and particularly particularly ones they didn't own you know particularly characters that they couldn't justify as R and D for the big corporation.

14:23.50

cbderrick

Right. Right? And and that's where and that's my theory I've posited you and you know offline about that's the result of image like image made it so that the the the creators who would really create cool shit because you know like. Like they couldn't get the good deal anymore like like Rob refel talks about he got 1 of those last good deals when he did um when he created the xors comic in terms of like can share his share of the proper participation. You know that because he did that and that dried that up at Marvel to me.

14:51.31

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yes, yeah.

15:05.91

cbderrick

I don't know if this is true but I feel like the the kind the companies made it so that the great stuff that you would create has to be created around and therefore it's got to go through Marvel not Marro has to go through image or someplace else I think only image 1 that really lets you.

15:25.24

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, but it's really it's really image for the most part. It's just yeah.

15:25.50

cbderrick

Unless you keep the rice to it. Yes, dark horse to a degree but you know, but but they get first media right? Yes, we it was so so so you have this thing where like that's the case and that means that like I'm sure that like. If you had a cool idea back in the eighty s you you have get it published through Marvel just straight out or put it through put it through the the epic line or whatever it is or if you were a dc you could just do it. You know because some of those books were like a screamer or like vigilante or whatever it is a stuff that like you know didn't get published.

15:58.24

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah.

16:00.24

cbderrick

I think that you know so so that's kind of our our our Raisison d'etre for this? Ah ah, ah this podcast you know I hate to use a big french word but I love big french words and you know so and you'll notice. There'll be other big fish words used by me in other episodes.

16:03.90

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yes.

16:11.90

Steven Bagatourian

Ah.

16:17.83

Steven Bagatourian

Ah, ah, that will definitely happen that will absolutely? yeah yeah.

16:19.74

cbderrick

That we used because is that a laugh to to get involved. You can post Um, but yeah, but I I Just think that's I mean look that was was exciting to me I mean and I mean it and I Think. Think going back to read books that like people forgotten about or even books that I've forgotten about you know because when we talked about Grindle recently you know like I had rhythm pened brother issues in like 20 years you know? So So it's it's interesting for me and you to go back and look at stuff.

16:38.22

Steven Bagatourian

Ah, right.

16:44.60

Steven Bagatourian

Um, oh totally? Yeah, yeah, same same.

16:53.50

cbderrick

Was so like crucial to our understanding comics, understanding storytelling and the fact that we are professional storytellers now that you know these comics were instrumental in shaping how we tell stories and what kind of stories that we want to tell them and what have we. Scene is like oh if you push the envelope to here because we yeah you know so so that's part of why this is cool for me.

17:12.58

Steven Bagatourian

Um, 1 hundred percent. Yeah, and no I love that I love that chris like I love everything you just said like that perfectly expresses I think so much of what I wanted us to do with the show and I think that we're. We're very kind of United in in our vision here because both of us have a tremendous amount of respect for the comic book creators that we loved and love and grew up kind of idolizing and reading stories and just inhaling artwork from and so like I just think it's just really dope to be able to have a forum. And a reason to go back and revisit this stuff because like you say aboutrenddall I hadn't read Mr. Monster those original dark horse issues of Mr. Monster since I was a little kid and that was 1 of the first indie comics I ever bought you know and going back and revisiting something that was like 1 of the first black and white comics. You ever read when you were.

18:02.32

cbderrick

Bright.

18:09.80

Steven Bagatourian

Super young when I was like eleven or twelve and then going back to it now 30 years later I mean it is wild and it's and it's also been really heartening for me to see frankly how well so much of this material does hold up and has kind of like. Justified the existence of the show on another level because it's not like we've just gone back and read a bunch of books and been like oh shit wow that really sucks none of that stuff is good anymore. I mean I think in large part we've been really happy at how dope. So many of these stories still are and even if there are things that we criticize and critique which there are here and there it doesn't mean that the work's not valuable and worthwhile because there's so much great work that was done that just didn't happen to be frank miller or alan moore and may may not have been. A full-fledged masterpiece and in some cases maybe they are and they've just been forgotten but in other cases they're just deeply interesting pieces of work and I think you know there are so many writers out there from that era and so many artists from that era people like trevor von eden people like pete milligan people like. You know there are so many incredible creators whose work was just profoundly interesting and provocative and pushing all kinds of envelopes and the idea that these creators are not having their work seriously examined and considered more. So. I think is ah you know is a crime and so hopefully we can. We can redress some of that on the show here. But I just wanted to mention chris because we've had like a list going back and forth between us for a while some of the books that we've we've thought about covering on the show and like you said we've already recorded a bunch of episodes but just so people get a sense of the kind of things we've been talking about. Covering ah, you know we've discussed that we want to cover. Let's see timothy truman scout and truman's hawk world. We've just we've discussed. Ah.

20:00.76

cbderrick

Here. Yep.

20:07.61

Steven Bagatourian

Doug mentioned I believe it was dan day or was it gene day who did aztec ace an incredibly bizarre book from eclipse we've discussed a a lesser known allan moore bilson kevich work called brought to light which I think everybody needs to read if you care about politics in america.

20:20.54

cbderrick

Yes.

20:27.38

Steven Bagatourian

Um, another really bizarre book called coyote by speaking of epic it was published through epic by steve engelhart and steve leah low yep ah Barry windsor smith storyteller which came out a little bit later but we both are big fans of Barry windsor smith here and um.

20:33.70

cbderrick

All together.

20:44.12

Steven Bagatourian

A book called wise son the white wolf by hoche anderson which was a book that came out of Milestone. There's actually a lot of really interesting books that came out of milestone that it would be a lot of fun to cover. Um, another book from epic comics that was like a really obscure book I would say largely speaking. It was called the light and darkness war and it was written by Tom vech and drawn by cam kennedy who would go on later to do some high profile star wars books for dark horse. But the light and darkness warre. It's a really odd and interesting looking book that I never hear anyone talk about speaking of books like that Mark wheatley and Mark hempels mars.

21:10.81

cbderrick

Right.

21:22.10

Steven Bagatourian

Which was published by first comics. We've talked a lot about howard shaken american flag does get some love and people do talk about american flag. But that that also is 1 that's such a significant work that I think it would be worth revisiting. You know.

21:32.79

cbderrick

But we but we but we also talked about like looking at Shaken's shadow you know? yeah that yeah it is the shadow that that he wrote and I think Billson ke to the art on you know the labor your next shadow. Yeah.

21:37.31

Steven Bagatourian

Oh yes, totally I'm glad you said that? yes. Ah, know that was actually that was actually the next shadow chan shaken wrote and drew his 1 and then cinkeitch did the next 1 with I think Andy helfer writing but we should cover we should cover all that.

21:52.78

cbderrick

Well yeah, that's right, it's right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, cause it's it's you know because I mean look the shadow was ah is interesting character. You know, obviously he's 1 of these enduring almost in the pulp era but I think that those I mean but that's a book that no 1 talks about I mean the shadow in general on.

22:06.66

Steven Bagatourian

Um, no, not at all oh my God Yeah yep.

22:10.19

cbderrick

Is not talked about and particularly is there's the 1 that that colluded to the art on in the seventy s and then there's the 1 that that shaken and the hellifer did which is like its own.

22:17.83

Steven Bagatourian

And that yeah yeah, you got chan you got shaken then you got he for iny kevi and then actually when um wheninkevi leaves kyle baker takes over young kyle baker and he actually does incredible work on the rest of that book I think until it's canceled with Andy heer still writing and.

22:27.45

cbderrick

So figure. Yeah.

22:37.33

Steven Bagatourian

Marshall rogers I believe does 1 fill an issue that's also beautiful but kyle baker that run in the shadow. No 1 ever talks about it and to me that's a phenomenal run right? there also like I love kyle baker and that's early early kyle baker where he was absurdly young and can you imagine just having the you know the. Guts to follow Billson kevich and howard shaken when you're a young artist and it's like 1 of your first books you're being handed I oh my god.

23:00.50

cbderrick

I Miss um I mean it's crazy now that the thing that people have to realize is might be saying all these obscure books and these experimental books is that they sound like vertigo books this is before vertigo existed. This is all before I mean but that's kind of 1 of our mantra is you know we don't really talk about books that.

23:11.65

Steven Bagatourian

Right.

23:19.81

cbderrick

I mean it's that or around doing the vertigo era because that's around the image era essentially and that I mean and look look like vertigo. We know like ruled the Ninety s and the the early 2000 but that's not part of our I mean that's outside of our cutout date I mean we might.

23:30.87

Steven Bagatourian

Yep.

23:37.78

cbderrick

There is the opportunity that we might talk about some some so yeah, like myth book. Yes, you know? yeah I mean there's like some modern books We you know in terms of the modern would be like like once image comes around is a major publishing force that enters the modern Era that's kind of our you know.

23:38.40

Steven Bagatourian

Um, we might have an exception like ah Barry windsor barry windsor smith storyteller might be an exception.

23:55.14

cbderrick

Like our demarcation line. We'll talk about some stuff you know here or there so that maybe so that no 1 kind of remembers I mean there's that was that 1 howard shaken seriously different I loved american century or something like that that no 1 talks about it you anymore. It was really button cool really cool.

24:05.00

Steven Bagatourian

Oh yeah, nobody talks about that. Yes, it was. It was really good. He co-wrote that with David tishman and I want to say was was it Mark laming who did the art on that. Um, yeah.

24:15.43

cbderrick

Maybe? But but but that's a book that was like I mean that that book like it reads like a right wing manifesto written by a guy who's not which I think is a great kind of like um, it's a it's a great critique on that part of. America like it like it reminds me of the american tabloid era that that ah james elroy did and you know like his sixty s books where he kind of like he he puts you in the shoes of like these like right-wing kind of like fbi agents who are kind of like racist and.

24:41.88

Steven Bagatourian

Um, oh yeah.

24:53.80

cbderrick

Homophobs and stuff like that and makes him the lead of his books and you kind of follow it because you kind of like this is kind of fucking fascinating. That's kind of what he does with the american citry in a way and it's the kind of stuff that that's the kind of stuff that just wouldn't get published today. You know.

25:06.11

Steven Bagatourian

No, no way like there's no 1 who would want to publish that book I mean you know back then I don't know what Dc's feeling on it was but I'm sure Chan had a wide degree of latitude because he was a name creator and he. You know I think Chan used his status in the industry such as it was to really push through some of the most provocative and bizarre and you know, really fascinating work that any major creator has ever done like at the height of his fame shaken decided to go do black Kiss. Which was a fucking pornographic book for vortex comics and was was published with a really strange form factor where every issue was only like 12 pages or 14 pages they were. They were super thin and they were like you know wrapped up and you know you couldn't get to them if you were a kid but like can you imagine having the cachet of being like.

25:40.98

cbderrick

Yeah, yeah.

25:59.61

Steven Bagatourian

Ah, major name in comics at that moment and then deciding what you really want to do is a porno book and I say that I say that not as a critique I say that just like Wow that's fascinating. That's a fascinating use of your power as a creator to go do something like that you know Alan Alan Moore Obviously ah went off and did lost girls at some point too in a somewhat similar move.

26:02.65

cbderrick

Yeah, yeah.

26:19.50

Steven Bagatourian

But I think that chan is a creator who just did some some really provocative work ah throughout his whole career and that era particularly you know the 80 s was the shaken that I was a huge huge fan of um when it came when it came to american flag and the shadow all that stuff.

26:30.76

cbderrick

yeah um well yeah yes yeah I mean I feel like so someone like Shan is is is similar to me because he was I mean I'm not sure like his publishing out put died out in the in the ninety s and and beyond.

26:46.86

Steven Bagatourian

And you went to hollywood.

26:50.00

cbderrick

Um, I mean like he still does stuff but it's not the same but he was pushing pushing the envelope quite a bit in comics quite a bit in a way that that really at least well like like made me you know, sit up and take notice because he he was doing like transgressive work. When no more was we doing it and he was doing it at these major publishing house like you said it wasn't like vortex stuff that's like hidden behind the plastic wrap but who's a guy who did the book faust I Forget his name we did foul? Yeah,, but but that was the boy that you were like whoa Do. What?? what's going on here. You know, um.

27:18.16

Steven Bagatourian

Oh Tim Vigil What the fuck is this.

27:27.44

cbderrick

You know and that will some a any comic too I Just think that you know people It's just like the movies and Tv right now like particularly in the movies like everything has to kind of feel safe in comics particularly like the mainstream comics kind of feel safe.

27:45.28

Steven Bagatourian

So yep, fine.

27:45.37

cbderrick

And because it's all more about it's like being like you said it was like being the Steward of corporate I p as opposed to creating cool shit and it's It's really hard to create. Yeah, it's really hard to create cool shit when a is work for hire. You don't get to own it and b.

27:53.17

Steven Bagatourian

Exactly It's a huge difference.

28:04.38

cbderrick

The the company might be afraid to publish because they might they feel they might get canceled or boycotted or whatever it is in some way where people so someone's gonna take Offense. It's kind of like you know I don't know like somebody said sometime res I don't know. Maybe I said this in the podcast but I read it before is like if you. If you're not offending somebody with your work. You're not doing it right? you know because you ah you almost kind of need to do that to for to to really because your art if your art isn't on the right edge.

28:25.89

Steven Bagatourian

Right.

28:37.98

cbderrick

You know I'm not saying it to be edgy best to be the edge of kind of what's acceptable. What what's you're approaching the consumers are going to get mad and the reaction are going to get mad and the thing is that's okay, you know, but nowadays it's like you. It's like well we can't lose any kind of market share.

28:44.23

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

28:50.50

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah.

28:56.18

cbderrick

You have to make sure the red states are cool and the and and the former confederacy is cool and it's like no, you don't but you know I'm not the 1 in charge of of trying to get subscribers to netflix. So.

29:02.62

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah, right? Well I think the thing you just said though really outlines kind of um for me the difference between mainstream comics back then and mainstream comics now in America and you know we should just mention as a caveat. Anyone who's listening to us kind of bitching about the state of comics today and wants to instead you know, correct us and tell us that we should be looking to web comics or we should be looking to indie comics and all that fair enough like that's totally cool, but that's not really what our focus is and what we're talking about. We're talking about. Our experience of like a certain type of elevated genre comic for lack of a better term in Mainstream american comics which was published by Marvel in dc and a handful of like classy independent companies in the eighty s and there was this incredible period where there was just. And explosion of creativity in the eighty s and mainstream comics to my mind over these last decades have devolved to a point where they feel so much like product they feel so much like ip management they feel to use your word chris they feel so safe.

30:18.90

cbderrick

Um, yeah.

30:19.72

Steven Bagatourian

That I am not I'm not at all excited to pick up mainstream comics and there's a lot of technical reasons which you'll hear me rant about in other episodes I e lettering done by font fonts instead of human hands. But that's a whole other discussion but there's all kinds of reasons why comics feel like products. Right now when they're coming out of mainstream american publishers but the fact remains in my mind that they do and if you pick up a comic from the 80 s and you've got something like Carrie bates writing a forty seven issue trial of the flash story. Arc. Where the flash is literally on trial for like fucking 3 and a half years you know like that is an idiosyncratic decision made by a creator and I don't know what he was thinking what cary bates was thinking I don't know how he had the the dispensation and the permission to actually stretch out that storyline that long. But oh my god.

30:56.35

cbderrick

For years. Yeah, yeah, what that.

31:14.31

Steven Bagatourian

Do I love that he was able to do that because it shows you that they gave him the keys to the car and they let him do whatever the fuck he wanted and I I mentioned to you a little bit ago that I was listening to this interview with ah Steve engelhart recently and I've heard a lot of comic book writers from that era talk about this that just.

31:15.10

cbderrick

That he was able to do that be broke into kill was to affecting.

31:32.21

Steven Bagatourian

You know when you got hired on a mainstream book back then other than just keeping up with the general continuity of the characters and how they might be. You know, crossing over with other books or what they were doing in other books you basically were getting handed the keys to the car. And you as like a quirky idiosyncratic creator you Jim stalin you Steve engelhart you carey bates whoever it was you got to go craft a wild odd storyline or you Anne nascenti and noscenti who takes daredevil into these dark and strange places that are not the same. Dark strange places that frank miller decided to take daredevil and there was no editorial mandate driving and nacenti's decisions on daredevil. It certainly didn't feel like it and there were so many creators back then that were just following their peculiar muse with these characters that were of course. Corporate I p on some level but it didn't feel like it and to me that was the magic that was the magic of that time.

32:26.14

cbderrick

Yeah, well have was the man I mean look I'll tell you an example something that I think is interesting about you. You get a character and you get the wrong with it in a weird way is Walt Simonson on Thor when he creates Beta Ray Bill because at the time.

32:41.60

Steven Bagatourian

Yes.

32:46.50

cbderrick

You're kind of like yeah the hammer says but you know but for 20 years or so no 1 thought Themas could pick up to hammer except for Donald blake who was really thorough hiding out and I feel like you know recently they did something where. Want to say jane foster becomes thor and is a female thor but that feels to me more like a how do we bring in readers because we want to get female readers like reading this comic and we want to get out of it being so male centric as opposed to. Someone who was like generally coming up with a version of like how do we defeat the whole concept of like totally deconstruct thor when people weren't into deconstructing heroes the way they are now so much was deconstructing completely. And the thing is it set up in a way where like for even odin didn't think that was going to happen and it did and it's like that's what actually made it fascinating and shocking at the time and again it's like post that I mean look I hate to say it's an era that people like you know because of what's behind it I'll do behind it.

33:41.40

Steven Bagatourian

Right.

33:58.80

cbderrick

But it's like but the Ninety s era of any film and like when mimaxs and newline and like fine line were putting out and sony pictures classics were putting out these type of movies that no 1 expected and gave like the rise to that. Whole kind of like american indie scene that spun out of that like ninety 2 or Ninety 3 sundance class with like you know reservoir dogs and el maracchi and gas student lodgings. You know that 1 year but things like 2 and Ninety 3 that year spun out and pushed.

34:30.37

Steven Bagatourian

Yep.

34:36.10

cbderrick

America american indie film like off to what we know now and and the whole concept of of making the great as oppos of writing the great american novel you're going to write. You're gonna make the great american indie filml a shifted culture that way and I feel like the 80 s had that in with these comics. Because they were done by the major companies like it'd be different if like these smaller there's you know eclipse and first and stuff like they were the only ones who were doing these books but they're not I mean like even now like Marvel doesn't really they did it 1 time a couple of years ago. They got some french stuff I remember seeing. But like but but do but everyone first was like publishing like lo wolf and cub it was like wow like like like they went out and got like like some manga that no 1 ever heard before you know you cooks there.

35:15.89

Steven Bagatourian

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, it was amazing. Yeah, and actually that was amazing and and it was also eclipse. We should give eclipse props because eclipse I believe was the I think they were the first american publisher that published manga and they did um. They did ah maya the psychic girl and the legend of kimui and and I remember seeing those books as a kid and being like what the fuck and then you're right and then and then first had lone wolf lone wolfen cub with those gorgeous frank miller covers.

35:40.36

cbderrick

Um, yeah. Amazing color you know and ah, you know and obviously that I mean obviously that might have been frank miller saying hey you guys need to publish this in the states because it's so instrumental to me. But it's 1 of those things where you know I don't think Marvel would do that like now I don't think the dc would do that now. And and and you know and I don't think the image would do that now either I mean I guess dark horse does that to a degree right now or they used to like like when they're doing like blaard of the immortal but they knew they could do it because first did it, you know in the eighty s you know so it was like a new thing that you were licensed material There's all this stuff in europe that we don't see.

36:12.74

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yes.

36:20.98

cbderrick

You know you you hear about now and we just don't see it here and I and we would see some of that stuff in like like in epic illustrated and things like that if I recall it was like an epic and some of this some might have been a heavy metal. Um I mean I feel like we need to do like a heavy metal issue. Ah, even though there's still like publishing that. But um.

36:29.44

Steven Bagatourian

Um, to whom.

36:40.60

cbderrick

Ah, maybe we do Epic Illustrat If you can find those? yeah I mean.

36:41.80

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, that'd be fun. Yeah yeah, we should totally cover some epic illustrated because I've I've read relatively little of it but I would love to actually revisulate that. Yeah.

36:48.17

cbderrick

I have like a bunch I have like 15 or twenty of them I I usually only go to comic cons I look firmers how to buy them? Um, but this I look. There's so much stuff that we could talk about I you know I hope that the listeners who listen to this show.

36:58.10

Steven Bagatourian

Oh yeah.

37:04.33

cbderrick

Just they want to hear something different about like you know the other day I was reading something about someone said, what's a big pop culture hole and she was like that americans fought the chinese in the Korean war I was like yeah like yeah, that's called the forgotten war.

37:18.57

Steven Bagatourian

Oh.

37:20.62

cbderrick

Like like like the Korean wars because it's so close to world war 2 and it it got overshadowed by vietnam that no 1 really even talks about and thinks about it and I feel like what we're doing is kind of like pulling the the curtain back and dusting off comics that were highly important.

37:25.86

Steven Bagatourian

Yes.

37:39.98

cbderrick

And at the time and to us and that's what we're talking about. So I hope people find it interesting.

37:41.73

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah. Yeah, totally and I think that we're doing it really I think for both for both of us. It's coming from a genuine sense of passion and also real respect for these creators and and I think as writers ourselves. We probably have a unique sensitivity to the idea of like pouring your heart and soul into a story and you can always feel that when a creator does that and the idea that people do that and then just to have these stories forgotten and never talked about. Just feels so wrong and when you look at how incredible these stories are so many of them like I just think it's it's exciting to me because there is an endless amount of material like we could do this show weekly for the next five years. And still have tons of great comics to talk about from the 80 s and so for me, that's something that is ah a really cool thing because we can go anywhere in terms of what we want to talk about on the show and like I'm excited because we've talked about. Things behind the scenes that we want to discuss still here I've got a few more books on our list that we've been sharing between us that I'll I'll just share with the listeners. We've got grim jack the ah the book from John ostrander and tim truman a lot of tim truman books here on the list I'm actually a massive tim truman fan and I think I've just come to He's incredible.

39:09.37

cbderrick

Well, he's fantastic. Yeah I mean I think yeah I you picked it and and and and he's not talked about today. You talked about as like as as as like 1 of the great draftsmen of.

39:13.44

Steven Bagatourian

He's incredible and he follows he followed such a unique unique path like such a unique path. Um.

39:27.42

Steven Bagatourian

Absolutely totally. He should be. He is just an utterly unique figure in comics and he has followed his own muse just consistently whether it was scout or Grim Jack or.

39:28.68

cbderrick

Comics you know and he should be.

39:42.17

Steven Bagatourian

Hawk worldl or he actually did this incredible 2 book series chris that I want us to cover at some point that's called wilderness and it's a book set in like frontier america and it's this little known history of this 1 figure this 1 dude and I'm going to butcher the story. So I won't try to. Actually recapitulate what the story is about but it's a real historical work that he actually researched heavily and he published it and then distributed it outside of comic shops and I think it was actually quite successful for him as 2 volumes of like this like oversized kind of graphic Album. He published it in kind of a european format himself and it's 1 of the best things he's ever drawn and I bought it on ebay recently and so it would be a great thing for us to cover. But I didn't know it existed until 6 months ago and apparently it's it's 1 of the things that tim truman is most proud of and so that to me is like it's the perfect kind of book that our show can exist to.

40:27.90

cbderrick

Right? right? right.

40:37.72

Steven Bagatourian

Discuss these books that really deserve to be given their full day in court and like really reckoned with in a way that's serious minded and you know like these works should not just. Vanish and and be forgotten in the ether of the internet for just somebody to discover on on ebay 1 day 1 hundred years from now and then they can't even find a single review for the book Online. You know like these books should be talked about.

40:58.92

cbderrick

Right? right? No, that's it yeah, that's exactly it. That's exactly I mean look I hope I hope listeners who stick with this show I mean I mean these are deep dives 2 3 hour conversations per series. It's not even a whole series just so it's usually just a run. You know the question 1 is maybe be the first 6 rate issues you know and and that book it like it. It ran much longer than that. But you know, but we go in deep I hope and I hope everyone enjoys it um look there'd be a website you know comicswatchybrain dot com.

41:26.80

Steven Bagatourian

Um.

41:33.78

cbderrick

Be show notes there be email if you want to email us about stuff just the you know questions stuff you you know if you and to quibble if you want to send us no hate mail. Please dont hate mail but I'll show. We'll get some anymore but I'm sure we'll get them anyway. But.

41:44.00

Steven Bagatourian

Ah, now you've said that.

41:49.35

cbderrick

You know?? Ah but whatever. Just I mean look you know we're open to discussing and and I was these are our opinions like they're not even like you know and what it's trying to be Definitive. We Just want you to say hey look at something that we liked that you might not have liked or might not even have known about probably didn't know about if you're a comics fan. Um, or you loved it and didn't know that anyone else loved it which I think is more about what we find interesting. Um, so that's all I got to say.

42:15.16

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah I I think that that is basically it and hopefully the show will be ah, a good home for all of us to kind of talk about these comics that we feel a bizarre amount of passion for from our you know either earlier in our lives earlier in our lives or perhaps. You know comics that you're just discovering now for the first time and you're like holy shit this is incredible. How did I not know this existed and hopefully our show can be a forum where we can talk with everyone listening about what they're responding to and what you guys think of these books and also everybody please ah feel free. To write in and suggest comics to us from the 80 s in general and let us know if we have not mentioned a book that is your favorite that you really think deserves a ah big. Ah you know, serious discussion because we're we're very open to ideas.

43:08.46

cbderrick

Over I just also we it's mainly Bronze age book. So that does like it does kind of teeter into like the late seventy s maybe like 70 so like 70 seven 78 up through like like 9091 is what we're looking at.

43:16.74

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's. Yeah, and and by the way this is our own somewhat personal definition of Bronze age because I just looked online and I think technically people say the Bronze age ends in 84 85 or something but like for us like we're gonna extend that Bronze age all through the eighty s.

43:36.50

cbderrick

Yeah, all through the 80 s yeah yeah, um.

43:39.57

Steven Bagatourian

I think that's I think that's good and you might you might even 1 day you might hear a creator or 2 pop up on the show for an interview because I know chris we've talked a little bit about a few folks that we'd like to get on the show to talk about some of their work and hopefully we're going to be reaching out to some of them soon.

43:54.44

cbderrick

Yeah, um, okay, guys. There'll be a secret origin episode that's dropped at the same time that this is dropped that's up next and then the first issue will be. First issue first episode will be coming soon. All right guys. Thank you for listening and we will talk to.

44:16.80

Steven Bagatourian

Thanks everybody.