Comics Rot Your Brain!
COMICS ROT YOUR BRAIN! is a deep dive into ‘80s comics (plus a few notable exceptions). In this weekly podcast, screenwriters Chris Derrick (STAR TREK: PICARD) & Steven Bagatourian (AMERICAN GUN) discuss favorite books, runs, and creators.
The Bronze Age is — for us — the greatest era in comics history. This time period was defined by a weird rift in the fabric of spacetime that allowed an industry in flux to reimagine what was possible. We all remember the eye-popping results: THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS, WATCHMEN, CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS, LOVE & ROCKETS, MAUS, etc.
…But what of the lesser-known gems of this era: THRILLER, GRIMJACK, NEXUS, CONCRETE, MR. MONSTER, SCOUT, STRAY TOASTERS, and so many others!? These comics and their creators blazed radical new trails that changed the course of comics forever but often are left out of today’s discourse.
COMICS ROT YOUR BRAIN! exists to celebrate and reckon with the extraordinary legacy of 1980s American comics — all of it.
Join us!
Comics Rot Your Brain!
ALIEN LEGION (Epic Comics, 1984) Part One
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
This week, Steven and Chris begin their two-part exploration of Epic Comics' ALIEN LEGION, published in 1984, created by Carl Potts, Alan Zelenetz, and Frank Cirocco. Part One covers issues one through five; Part Two continues the series.
Visit ComicsRotYourBrain.com to get a look at some of the fantastic art discussed in our episodes.
COMICS ROT YOUR BRAIN! is a deep dive into ‘80s comics (plus a few notable exceptions). In this weekly podcast, screenwriters Chris Derrick (STAR TREK: PICARD) and Steven Bagatourian (AMERICAN GUN) discuss their favorite books, runs, and creators from the Bronze Age of comics.
SHOW NOTES
0:15 - Intro to the ALIEN LEGION series
02:07 - How the floppies differ from the collected trade editions, in regard to THE OFFICIAL HANDBOOK OF THE MARVEL UNIVERSE-style entries provided for the main legionnaires
08:55 - Issue One, "Survival of the Fittest!" Zelenetz and Cirocco’s specific way of approaching this sprawling space opera
28:15 - Issues Two: "Blind Trust!"
30:31 - Allusions to LOST — Did that classic TV series draw inspiration for its “bottle episodes” and their solo character flashback structures from ALIEN LEGION?
44:39 - Torqa Dun & Jugger Grimrod as sketchy legionnaires in the Wolverine and Punisher mold
58:12 - A detour into the challenges of creator-owned comics
1:08:38 - Issue Three, "Last Gamble!” and its Back-up Story
1:20:53 - Era of post-decompressed storytelling and Frank Cirocco’s exquisitely-designed cover art
1:25:19 - Issue Four: "The Killing Zone!” - the big Torie Montroc’s solo issue
1:40:21 - Zeerod’s Back-Up Story in Issue Four: “Conscience!"
+ Goodwin & Simonson's phenomenal ‘70s gem, MANHUNTER
#alienlegion #scifi #thealienlegion #carlpotts #larrystroman #epiccomics #spaceopera
+ Check out our YouTube channel to get a look at some of the fantastic art featured in our episodes. Visit ComicsRotYourBrain.com to sign up for our newsletter, Letter Column. You can also find us wherever you stream your favorite podcasts.
+ We appreciate your support of the show via Patreon: ComicsRotYourBrain
+ For even more cool shit, read Chris's Substack (cinema, comics, and culture) - THIN ICE
©2024 Comics Rot Your Brain!
#comicbooks #comics #graphicnovel
00:00.00
cbderrick
So Steve we are back to talk about a book I don't even to tell you man I mean look look look I a ali talked in the intro are you know for this this is this the fascinating book. But now that we're into it.
00:02.29
Steven Bagatourian
Once.
00:18.34
Steven Bagatourian
Yep.
00:19.21
cbderrick
I Don't want to let you know we've said about a lot of these books that these are like some of our favorite books right? but this is really one of my favorite books like this is one of my all time favorite comics ever. Absolutely ever. Um.
00:24.99
Steven Bagatourian
Who.
00:38.46
cbderrick
And it's shocking having not read this in 2025 years probably well well since we're reading this is up from the 80 s so it's at least 25 years like I was telling you 1 time offline. It's like how much this book is.
00:38.92
Steven Bagatourian
Yep.
00:56.86
cbderrick
Affected me as a writer has affected me as a creator and I think that that that anyone who was not read a region which is the book. We're talking about today. There's the first six issues of the original series. Ah, they don't know what they're missing this is. Ultimately we one of the best space opera books that I've ever read in terms of like prose books and comics. It's there's so much world building in this that it's absolutely insane and what I wanted to. You know to talk to to have you talk about because I read the omnibus and you have the individual issues and the first issue begins differently with the the like the floppy than the collection. So talk about what we see like in the collection of this of the first issue.
01:48.28
Steven Bagatourian
In the floppy in the floppies. Yeah yeah, no I'm glad you you mentioned that because that is something like we talked about that is so unique about how they start this series off basically the first issue of Alien Legion which is a double-sized first issue opens with these.
01:51.52
cbderrick
The front we end.
02:06.89
Steven Bagatourian
Official handbook of the Marvel universe style entries of all these major characters giving you just kind of like the little encyclopedia breakdown of who these characters are and what they're all about and it's a really odd just device to begin a series with a series like. Just a whole bunch of Encyclopedia Pages you know giving us the 4 one one on these characters before we even start reading the story. So. It's definitely an unusual way to start, but it really does point to kind of what you're mentioning man like the world building on display here is just epic. And it's massive and honestly it's it's challenging to take in and that's something we talked about too just like this is a very adult space opera book. You know it's like like you're dealing with major kind of political adult stuff.
02:53.21
cbderrick
Oh for sure for sure.
03:01.90
Steven Bagatourian
That you don't typically see kind of delved into in this kind of detail particularly you know, not back then in a comic that's ostensibly published under the Marvel comics umbrella here at epic but this book is like it's political. It's it's militaristic and it's just got it's got so much heavy. Stuff happening like just the themes are very adult so much of the subject matter is adult. But then you look in at the characters and there are these completely bonkers wacky looking aliens in the midst of these hyper adult very serious stories. So it's it's a hell of a juxtaposition.
03:35.86
cbderrick
Well from my memory of this book and this book you know you know I mean the the would be the the first issue as you says double size is written by um, this his name again. Um Allen.
03:53.99
Steven Bagatourian
Allen zellens.
03:55.20
cbderrick
Yes, it's alllan zelis is principal by but by Frank ah Charocco and and an inc by Terry Austin the thing about this book is this this book that you know like like when it begins like that with the the entries of the characters. It reminded me like.
04:02.26
Steven Bagatourian
Yes.
04:14.91
cbderrick
At the time I had never seen this because I didn't read a lot of ah fantasy at the time but something I notice more and more is that Ah, the author should put these like breakdowns of like the houses or the families or the characters right up in the front of a book and you'd be reading stuff and you'd be like who are all these people and there's.
04:18.26
Steven Bagatourian
1
04:32.53
Steven Bagatourian
And then.
04:34.48
cbderrick
Two hundred three four or 5 pages of like of names and like a brief sentence like that and then ultimately it would roll into the story and I felt like that's what he was doing here because he was gonna say look I'm not gonna hold your hand as the reader I'm gonna jump into this. And throw you in something and you have to be able to start picking things up and I want to give you just a little bit of backstore because like you know the the like I guess the quick log on on this is it's the french foreign region in space and.
05:07.78
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, yeah.
05:10.70
cbderrick
And he basically it's like hey here's all these people from all these different like these worlds and economic backgrounds and we're going to throw them all together and I don't want to like you know like spend time having you to to learn about their backstory throughout the story. It comes out in a way when they're talking about stuff but but I need you to know enough about them just enough about them not too much but enough about them so that when you introduce to people. It's not like so foreign but to me, you know, like reading it again up to 20 years. It all came back to me could he see people were where where they're from.
05:46.65
Steven Bagatourian
And.
05:47.19
cbderrick
But they do like like like I connect their personality traits and things like that I was like oh oh yeah, like this guy's the what's the guy's name ah torque done ah us kind I like this is the thing I Love about this is all these characters are people that later in my life.
05:56.19
Steven Bagatourian
M.
06:04.36
cbderrick
I Met people like this I met people who kind of fit these kind of personalities. You know these like like these kind of things and I think that is such as as ah and I I didn't realize it at the time and I realize that now that it was like this is what is so good writing and that this what you don't get out and in superhero comics that much.
06:06.19
Steven Bagatourian
Ah, yep, yep.
06:22.68
cbderrick
The superhero comics. The characters are so they're such the they're like they're mythological in a way that you know that they don't they don't remind you of anybody you know the villas that remind you of anybody. It's just like he I'm I'm showing you ah like Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne and
06:27.92
Steven Bagatourian
Okay.
06:40.11
cbderrick
Mr. Fantastic and and Steve Rogers is no one like them that you really know in the real world and you know and and the villains are who they are too but not not now not not saying they're unrelatable because because they're representing the representing.
06:42.47
Steven Bagatourian
Right? That's a really good point. Yeah.
06:56.85
cbderrick
Certain kind of trauma and events and things like that. But these guys the characters in this. They all feel like people you would know like when you go and and read this and you see something like platoon or see something like band of brothers like it feels like this guy knew how to create those like those. The the very shades of people that you threw them all together in some life or this situation. There's gonna be hell a pay because of their personalities on top of the situation that they're dealing with like plotwise or what their objectives are and I think that is such so I feel like he's gotta give you that.
07:28.25
Steven Bagatourian
Yes.
07:34.33
cbderrick
Dossiers up front so you kind of just like you know like hey like like here's the only handrail you get because the first issue throws you in and it's like hey like they're getting shot at and they get knocked out of the sky and there's no explanation of anything. There's there's no like there's not There's not even like. Ah, scene where you like spin like 2 3 pages like meeting people that you like because first even that you like get shot down and get killed. You know so it was like boom you're out and it's like such an interesting but but like you said the politics in this.
07:54.32
Steven Bagatourian
Ah, and yep.
08:07.72
cbderrick
Are so cool because you get politics on the military level like what that is and it feels like some real military shit but you also get like the like there's the there's like the the galactic politics of like the of like the different like entities and and for but for a lack of better thing like the planets and the nations. And it's like what I love about this book is that stuff has as has as like it like it. Um, it doesn't affect the storyline so directly like it like in the first one they're on that planet to protect what's going On. And you know and and they're doing that Mission. That's like an ecological protection mission like and and and and these military guys are so are are down there and without their standard kit. They got those darts that biodegrade because because they they don't want to to damage the life forms that are there show them.
08:46.96
Steven Bagatourian
Yes, yes.
09:02.30
cbderrick
Technology that's beyond their scope to fuck with them was kind of the prime directive in in Star Trek You know.
09:02.65
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, and and they've like they've they've committed to yeah, they've committed to that right? like they won't use their like more modern space age weaponry on this planet because they don't want to violate the biosphere or the the environment of this particular planet. And that ends up kind of figuring into the story ultimately too. Um.
09:19.80
cbderrick
Yeah, which is which is fantastic because oh and and it's kind of like it's kind of like I don't think I've ever seen a story a space story that deals with what deals with marines like that.
09:33.35
Steven Bagatourian
Who.
09:36.80
cbderrick
You know it's see essentially these are marine kind of the like the is is like marines like that that have that had that kind of like initial handicap like can you imagine like if you took if you took something like the James Cameron aliens
09:37.77
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, sure.
09:50.72
cbderrick
And they were sent there and they're like hey look you know what there's colonists there. So don't you know like so we have to cut down the on this the type of weapons we can bring you know it it it would it would make them find the aliens like even that much more difficult and I think I think that's what makes it such a cool but and there's so much stuff like that.
09:58.50
Steven Bagatourian
Um, right. Yeah, yeah.
10:09.72
cbderrick
Throughout all the little stories where it's like hey you don't really get to roll at your full operational strength because we're trying to show because the Alien reason to get is like they're not.. There's not as real.. It's not like a real rule story where they're doing like aggressive kind of like action. You know they're there to. Kind of be like peacekeepers kind of like like the un peacekeepers you know in most of the stories. You know that so far that we've read you know they're not like going out and like the not because this is legion is's not like the Roman legion or the route like like doing conquering activity I think that's kind of fascinating too about what these guys created what they did in this.
10:32.72
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, it's true.
10:48.48
cbderrick
Um, I mean like I mean I think I think you were telling me that that the the guy you know like Frank Suocco this is his first working. This is his first like major comic work right.
10:56.99
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, yeah, that's my understanding that Frank Siroko had never drawn a regular comic book series before this I think he'd done maybe some some indie stuff here and there but I think at the very least I believe it's his first major comic book for a major publisher and um, it's really. Ah, pretty astonishing debut you know we talked about this a bit offline Chris but I'm like blown away by siroko's work on this on these first six issues in particular the issues that are inked by Terry Austin Frank Siroko and Terry Austin like they they create an unbelievable team here and it's.
11:26.68
cbderrick
Um, yeah.
11:35.22
Steven Bagatourian
It's very fully realized art like it doesn't feel like oh they're just trying to kind of get their feet wet and find their footing for these characters I mean reading this first issue. It actually feels to me like from the level of polish and sophistication and thought in the composition. The artwork even the coloring the coloring actually a shout out to Bob Sharon it's got like a really nice kind of muted watercolory palette that is really unusual for comics of that time, but it looks really classy and it's just got a very nice subtlety to it but the whole thing it looks to me more like a Marvel graphic novel. Of that era like this first issue then an ordinary floppy comic because it looks like just a tremendous degree of extra care was taken with this book and just every page the compositions like I love this one on page. What is it page 3 of the first issue where the the ship goes down. It gets shot out of the sky and you just see these. You know the silhouettes of these 2 little alien life forms looking at the and the bottom frame there looking at the smoking ship you know and it's just such a subtle thing and it's like it takes up a good amount of space these like creatures you see from behind but it's just beautiful composition from siroko amazing angst from Terry Austin as always and the colors.
12:33.48
cbderrick
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, but yeah.
12:49.50
Steven Bagatourian
Gorgeous and then the coloring choices are frankly, unique too like page after page. There's a lot of just strange choices. A lot of Pinks and oranges and and just really like just strong choices being made everywhere with the coloring. Um, but this is just beautiful. It's beautiful work though and I mean it's.
13:02.88
cbderrick
What what was cool.
13:07.89
Steven Bagatourian
The coloring bit else of Siroko's composition that just really just jumps out at be like crazy.
13:11.80
cbderrick
Because I you know the thing about these pages. We said this briefly before but I just want to bring it up to everyone because we always say briefly before but um, um, he does a lot of stuff where he works with negative space. You know which is really really fascinating I mean I remember there was an issue of.
13:21.71
Steven Bagatourian
Exactly Yes, Yes, yes.
13:30.18
cbderrick
Daredevil I think it was the one I want to say it's issue like 92 or something like that. It's maybe it's one eighty one. It's the issue after um after bull'seye has killed electra and and and and and and daredevil hunts him down.
13:35.62
Steven Bagatourian
A.
13:48.40
cbderrick
And he's and he's holding them somehow like like but like buy like a like ah like ah like a wire somewhere and lets him fall and breaks his back right? and the next issue is in. He's in the hospital like you know like like ah like Bull'seyes in the hospital and and and.
13:59.79
Steven Bagatourian
Right.
14:05.17
cbderrick
And and he gets approached by darev. He can't talk and it's like all all these pages where it's like the pages like the panel's all white but this one little thing is color and and it's and it's done by Lynn Varley that's this really really fascinating way of doing that where you use the white. Yeah you know to yeah like and.
14:12.12
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
14:21.31
cbderrick
And it's and the and a silhouette stands out so strongly like it's it's insane the work that they do.
14:22.22
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, oh it's so good. It's amazing. Yeah, right? I'm so glad you called that out man because that's something that look like here here's another page too just like constantly page after page siroka just drops out the background for moments of effect. But it doesn't feel like you know some 90 s artist who just doesn't feel like drawing backgrounds no like siroko. Obviously it says in the 80 s he's making choices and he doesn't mind drawing backgrounds and draws beautiful backgrounds you know through much of the book. But these are very targeted choices where he's like okay fuck all that. Want you to focus on these 2 characters and their bodies fucking hurtling through the air as they fight with each other or whatever it is but just great choices throughout and and really just honestly like compositionally, there's so much thought going on here and you just don't see that in most monthly comics. Of any era like it looks really well considered and the artist you know I mentioned this to you before like that I kept wondering to myself like who does Frank Siroko remind me of who does he remind me of and I just kept looking at it and I felt like the work felt familiar in a really good way and then suddenly it struck me like oh Walt Simonson it looks a lot like Walt Simonson to me in a lot of just the best ways and a lot of the things that I love about Simonson and it's not identical but I think that once I thought of that I was like okay I would be stunned if Frank Siroko didn't didn't say that Walt Simonson was a huge influence of his at this time and it just. The work feels reminiscent of it. It's got an energy design sense that to me in the mainstream like there's no one nobody other than Simons and you know like you could say Kirby or whatever. But for me, it looks so much more like Simons and Becauseirrou's work has this angular quality to it and it just That's what it feels like to me and that to me is a high compliment because I think Simonson's you know obviously 1 of the one of the greats.
16:14.19
cbderrick
No I mean you're absolutely right I mean I think that what I mean I think people think of Walt Simon of this era they're thinking of Thor you know they're thinking of maybe as fantastic for when he picked up after Byrne.
16:23.69
Steven Bagatourian
Um.
16:29.66
cbderrick
Yeah I mean but this reminds me a lot of his his man hunter worked and that early stuff he did and the in the in the mid 70 s with Archie good one those backups in the I think was was a detective comment I think was I don't think detective comment. Yeah, it was a detective comics.
16:36.31
Steven Bagatourian
Mm.
16:40.70
Steven Bagatourian
It was in yeah, it was detective. It was detective. Yeah, yeah, it's amazing.
16:47.11
cbderrick
Um, I think there there is a trade for that. So maybe in the shuttles. Will'll put a trade to that man hunter theme. But it's the thing I like about is ey bre up kiby too because the thing that he does This is koer to thyusson but he's even more about this than Thyson is his artwork doesn't look like cartoony like to you know like.
17:02.38
Steven Bagatourian
Right.
17:05.14
cbderrick
But like if you to put these those 2 guys in a row like Kirby Simusson shiroco I think that's the ordering of like who's more cartooning who's slipp' looking more like I mean yeah, there's a realism that's what makes his book as because there's a realism to the arts.
17:08.36
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, yeah, you're right siroko looks much more realism.
17:22.81
cbderrick
That brings you into the to the world building of the story that is so fucking cool I mean like yeah like like you know this first issue you know, basically the first issue like like they have to go to this planet to protect what's schooling on because there's these illegal like these minors who are who are.
17:27.39
Steven Bagatourian
Yes, yes.
17:41.89
cbderrick
Were digging up ore for the planet and they're bringing down technology that is way advanced. You know done with this planet can capable of and and and they're and think they're also getting arent they getting like ah some sort of material that is gonna be is some sort of like like like nuclear fizzle material.
17:58.24
Steven Bagatourian
Um, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, that the the nuclear stuff. Yes, exactly.
18:01.50
cbderrick
That you know that that that 5 or 6 right? Yeah yeah, the several issues later becomes important you know this was it was cool about this comic is that something that happens now in in this issue one which ostensibly is in the background of what's happening in the story. It does show up four or 5 issues later. So it's like these guys plotted out these first 5 six eighteen issues in a way I mean were at 6 but but there's stuff that just keeps coming back like it makes it sense if if see it feels like what somebody would be doing if they were doing like a really cool Tv show today.
18:35.41
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
18:37.55
cbderrick
and and and and I say that really cool Tv show because what Tv shows won't do today is they won't do a serialized show or a show that mixes serialization with a single episode single episodes you know because there's episodes and here that are just like hey this is just happening now. And then you know for it might be chip so 2 issues of that and then we'll come back to this this larger plot of what's going on with the politics and the new empire and the the harcolan empire which was I think is and like this I tell you before about like but like why.
19:04.00
Steven Bagatourian
Yes.
19:11.62
cbderrick
This was so instrumental to me as a writer this type of storytelling more than any other comic and I say that after after coming back to this after twenty some years is that this type of storytelling in this it demands that you pay attention to to everything very much is that that is.
19:24.21
Steven Bagatourian
Oh yes, yeah.
19:30.97
cbderrick
That is doled out like just no I mean like it's Weird. You know like that that always tell you when you're writing a screenplay stuff like that hey don't give information this mean anything you know or or people always throw all just filler stuff all the time and there's stuff that feels like filler but it's. Absolutely not because because even the so so the guy who runs the unit The guyerragar who's like the snake right? like like ah he feels bad in this issue because they have to ultimately like use some explosions and use like some modern tech to win but but he's but he's.
19:47.29
Steven Bagatourian
M.
20:01.15
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah.
20:05.78
cbderrick
But he's wrestling with it like personally and they do this cool thing where they they run thought balloons so you hear him so hear his thoughts like what do I do like like do I let my men die or do I use my the directive that I have and then ultimately like the next issue two shoes later. He's like up in front of the court Marshall. So that that he put himself up there for to say hey you know what? Ah hey so like I fucked up if you if you will take away my commission. My command I understand you gotta do that I was like that's like such smart storytelling such a cool character to design.
20:28.12
Steven Bagatourian
Yep.
20:41.75
cbderrick
To make him in charge of the of this platoon but but he's not like well ah I can't think of a guy who runs a platoon who's like that you know like that we've seen in us. Ah some sort the filmic story.
20:48.70
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, well, you're right? Yeah, he is unique because he's reflective and like even in like a few issues later I think it's issue 5 like 1 of the one of the aliens kind of in his command like a really weird goofy looking alien comes to him and says. Like later on like hey you know sargar I'm really worried about this other troop who's like kind of been labeled as like a traitor you know by the rest of the crew because he abandoned you know this other guy and now you know everyone's being really hard on him I'm worried for his safety.
21:15.29
cbderrick
Oh you're regular.
21:21.36
Steven Bagatourian
And sarraga is like get the fuck out of here. Don't bother me with this shit. You know like that guy can handle it. He can handle himself and then by the end of issue 5 that dude gets killed and he gets beaten to beaten to death right? like he gets killed by by the other by the other fucking his fellow troops and sarragar. The sarga is like oh shit.
21:31.24
cbderrick
Um, yeah, yeah, um, yeah.
21:40.42
Steven Bagatourian
And then the little goofy little aliens like I tried to tell you and yeah.
21:40.66
cbderrick
I Don't I try to say what was but was kuba that was cool about that is is that he's not dismissive I get the fagata here. He's got some other things that are more pressing in his head which is which is great which is great because it's a great moment where you're kind of like oh I get what happened with him.
21:48.37
Steven Bagatourian
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, he was busy. That's true.
21:58.80
cbderrick
Because he's worrying about his own career. It's it's so realistic. It's and it doesn't feel like you feel like 1 of the it's like I mean in most other military things that I've seen somebody who is like this who who commands the respect of his unit.
21:59.24
Steven Bagatourian
It's real. It's realistic. Yeah.
22:15.99
Steven Bagatourian
Yes.
22:18.15
cbderrick
And but but he has some friction with the higher ups like the like I mean like the the one military thing I could think of offhand is band of brothers right? and a band of brothers like the 2 guys like Ron Livingston and then um, the guy with the bret hair to fucks his name who's in billions right now.
22:25.30
Steven Bagatourian
The.
22:36.66
cbderrick
Um, I forget his name now someone with um damen Lewis those guys at a certain point like they're part of they're part of easy company and then they're not you know and then they're back farther in to the ah you know like the command poster I mean on the plane that's coming back off them.
22:38.45
Steven Bagatourian
M.
22:55.22
cbderrick
From Chicago I watched a saving private Ryan and it's almost like that saraga reminds me of the Tom Hanks character like in that in terms of he's very principled. You know I think that's the only character I've seen who's like ah who's a troop leader who can hang out with the troops.
22:56.29
Steven Bagatourian
Oh.
23:01.82
Steven Bagatourian
Um, now. That's so funny. Yeah. So.
23:13.43
cbderrick
But knows how to like but is also like has his own moment where he's above them. You know and that's what's a really cool way that he's that sergar was created as a character and what's cool about it is this like um I think it was interesting about these characters because he he's sort of like.
23:16.72
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, yeah.
23:31.61
cbderrick
The guy named ah tori montrock right in terms of like they're from wealthy families. You know.
23:35.43
Steven Bagatourian
Right? And that is actually fascinating if you think about it several of these troops are and do you want to describe for the listeners Chris what what saragar what he actually looks like because you you know you mentioned the the snake thing a second ago but people may not realize that you're being quite. You're being very literal.
23:44.29
cbderrick
Yeah, yeah, yeah, So if you it it. Yeah, um, we love? Yeah so I mean so what? that's cool about this is is that is that he's kind of like a centaur you know or he's He's like a sitar as opposed to you know so that so but as opposed to the bottom half being like ah ah a horse. He's got a snake.
23:56.42
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, yeah.
24:05.73
Steven Bagatourian
Yes.
24:07.54
cbderrick
A snaketail and he's got this spikes on the end. So it's there's it's kind of like a um it I don't say a bass of whisk but from but it's but it. But and this the spikes he can like drop him down with in his tail and flash him up when he wants to which is really fucking cool too.
24:13.89
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, yeah.
24:20.52
Steven Bagatourian
Um, it's a hell of a design. It's an incredible design. It's like very very iconic looking character and like you know I was thrilled at 1 point in these issues in the first six issues or or so where he finally used his tail in battle to like to crush.
24:24.29
cbderrick
Yeah, it's an amazing design.
24:34.79
cbderrick
Um, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, which is dope which is.
24:37.72
Steven Bagatourian
To crush some little robot or something and I was like oh yeah, he's using his fucking snakedale. Awesome. But it is yeah it's hilarious and dope I think it's also funny just to think about how they're playing against type in a certain way like people think of snakes you know I think of snakes and you think of like you know you're you're terrified. Think they're dangerous. You know snakes in the garden of eden all that like snakes don't have the best sort of you know pr historically and the idea of having this commander be half snake yet be this guy who has like a tremendous sense of ethics and he's not He's not.
25:10.95
cbderrick
Yeah Sco It's it's it's I mean it's It's a great choice. It' something that I mean something and um, that ah I might have remarked on at the time but maybe I wasn't looking at as symbol. Ah as a kid.
25:14.63
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, you know what? I mean it's a really interesting choice.
25:25.35
cbderrick
But now that she mentioned it's a yeah at gar and Eden I mean I mean I mean the ethics and he like he's the antithesis of what a snake character would be if you call someone on a snake you would go. Oh he's gonna and and he's in command and you think he's gonna sell out his troops for some time or whatever it is and he's totally not that.
25:31.95
Steven Bagatourian
Um, right exactly.
25:40.72
Steven Bagatourian
Who and.
25:42.60
cbderrick
I mean it is I mean thing of this I was say is there's ah um I don't know maybe issue 3 years 4 I think it's an issue two because there's something that they do where in some of the issues. There's like there's the main story will play out I know it's an issue 2 and 3 I'm not jumping ahead. But it's like but there'll be like a little origin story of some of the people.
26:02.50
Steven Bagatourian
Yes, like backup backup stories yup ease.
26:02.52
cbderrick
Or So or some little side story. That's like a backup. It's a backup story and they do one with saragar where there's a moment in one of the issues I be sure it was an issue one where where they're in the middle of a battle and he's distracted for like for like a half like but between the panels of my he's distracted and he like jumps to it. But in the back of Story. They explain what he was distracted about and it goes into his whole background like him and his him and his sister they got all this money and an inheritance and and and you know on their home planet and they were not living large but they were living comfortably but the sister got seduced by some guy.
26:35.94
Steven Bagatourian
Here.
26:41.27
cbderrick
And the guy convinced his sister to steal all of his money too and just left him broke and I was like that's a really fucked up order story for this dude it was just I mean like that was cool, but this tube is that this is why again the way these guys design this story with like I'm giving you the the the.
26:46.15
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, woof. Yeah.
27:00.76
cbderrick
The Marvel handbook entry about who they are but that doesn't like it is just the surface of what they're about because what you because search you can say yeah, so it's 1 of one of those things where like like as the the the issues keep going.
27:06.74
Steven Bagatourian
You know, no no sorry good. No go ahead. Go ahead, Please ah finish.
27:18.78
cbderrick
You start seeing more and more about them. You get more and more sense of who they are what they're about in a way that the entry like couldn't do wouldn't do it. Be not smart to do because you want stuff to come out within the the the the full of the story because it up and form their choices. You know it's really.
27:33.93
Steven Bagatourian
Yes, yeah, totally.
27:37.72
cbderrick
And it's really smart fucking writing I wish somebody had the balls to write this way now in comics I mean this is this is this came out in the but it was it eighty five eighty four it came out 84 seriously came out I mean so it's it's been almost forty years
27:40.80
Steven Bagatourian
Ah, yeah.
27:49.60
Steven Bagatourian
Um, yeah, yeah.
27:56.40
cbderrick
I Can't think of any comic space comic that is this well done in terms of like how dense it is in story but not to but I don't mean that in it it at all like oh you should be off put by this but in terms of like.
28:00.53
Steven Bagatourian
Who.
28:14.56
cbderrick
These guys had so much story to tell and it's doled out in a really really smart way so that you can follow, but there is a lot to follow issue to issue for sure, but this but you feel like these guys said like they just have like so there must have been like like a thousand page bible.
28:23.40
Steven Bagatourian
Yes.
28:33.50
cbderrick
Sitting around for them to go hey we got all the story you want to tell you know which is fascinating for a comic particularly done at this time when people weren't even doing comics like this Ah granted this was an epic book where they gave people some freedom I mean I think that one book we're gonna talk about later like like. Like dread star has got a similar level of white chess depth of the world that's built but because it's 1 main character as opposed to there is no main character name engine. There's which I think is fascinating you know and and and but I think I think the white person.
28:53.85
Steven Bagatourian
Yes.
28:59.54
Steven Bagatourian
Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, this yeah.
29:07.76
cbderrick
Who I know who could do something like that now would be like Kurt be sick because he does kind of the like down with Astro City and and maybe um, Jay Michael Strazinsky because he did the babylon 5 kind of thing but I don't think there's any other writers that I know of. Who are doing comics who are doing comics on this scale you know like it's just I can't think of me.
29:30.26
Steven Bagatourian
Um, no, those are those are actually fantastic points man I I agree. It's there's a level of like depth and scale as you say and just sheer sophistication and ambition that's at play here. That you very rarely see in in any kind of of form or any kind of storytelling and it actually makes me wonder if you know, kind of piggybacking on some of the stuff you were saying earlier about the way that the backstory is unspooled for this group of characters kind of organically as we travel through the story with them. And made me wonder if Damon lindelof ever read alien legion when he was growing up because something about this like storytelling devicewise actually does remind me of lost in the sense that your and of course alien legion predates lost considerably. But you're with this group of characters that is like a huge ensemble. Having a crazy fucking adventure where they're all forced to do really life and death wild things and then as you get into it. You start having these flashbacks that explain what their previous lives were all about and what they were like before they got to you know the island in the case of loss. But here it's like before they joined. Alien legion what was going on in s saragar's life what was going on in you know Tori Montrock's life all this but like I can't think of another show that this reminds me of in terms of storytelling as much as lost in that.
30:52.78
cbderrick
Are.
30:57.65
Steven Bagatourian
Specific way of unspooling these mysterious characters backs stories very slowly in individual almost like bottle episode mini flashbacks that are giving us that you know these individual members the ensemble each get their own personal backstory I mean that's what lost did with fucking you know everybody evangeline.
31:05.48
cbderrick
Right.
31:14.73
cbderrick
Yeah, no, you're right? You're absolutely you actually right.
31:14.93
Steven Bagatourian
Lilly and sawyer and you know all the characters I'm lost. That's that's what they did you know and so Damon I mean like obviously I'm sure there's been other stories that have done that but it just strikes me that Damon Lindelof was a huge comic book geek and he was reading comics at this time so you know consciously or unconsciously this may have been something that really affected him also and. Who knows perhaps was rattling around in the back of his mind as he was kind of putting those pieces in place with lost years later, but but I just want to comment also on what you're saying in regard to just the world building and the level of detail that is exhibited here by Karl Potts and Alan Zellens and Siroko in Austin I mean you don't really see this kind of detail very often in storytelling period like there are so many alien races. There are so many characters and I'll make a confession I think this story for me would have been. Probably easier to read at a certain point in my life where I was less distractable at times just because of like the demands of life and having an adult schedule cause this is the kind of book that like as a kid I could see why you loved it so much. This is like a universe that you can immerse yourself in. And in a time before the internet I mean I can imagine this fucking comic being like the lifeblood of some kid who discovers it at the right age like you did cause if you took fucking ten or twenty issues of alien legion away with you on a family trip. You could read those shits like 2 3 times. And you would be discovering new things in those comics every single time because there's so much here and you just can't you can't get it all on a first read. Honestly there's just too much shit going on and there's a level of generosity to the storytelling that I find really just awesome and it's like It's exciting to see that and I love that whenever I experience that like from any writer from any kind of storytellers where you feel like oh my gosh they're giving us so much like these characters are so rich. There's so much here because like you say it's the opposite of what we see like fucking 99 out of a hundred times.
33:21.60
cbderrick
Yeah, um I mean um I mean like I um I think we're just saying is fascinating about like the the is it's the intensity of the storytelling that this that this guy gets involved in.. It's not that it's dense because because this is has always got a negative connotation to it. I mean to a degree. It's kind of like it's kind of like the dune movie right? I don't know if you've seen that yet or not but but but when you but when you watch that movie but this is better than the Dune this is because it allows you to go into the it. It allows you to go into the details.
33:44.14
Steven Bagatourian
Not not yet I really need to.
33:57.44
cbderrick
That that movie because it's a movie has to you know like skirt to a degree because they just can't focus on so much and it's something that they wouldn't do on a television shell because television just doesn't have the money to to create such worlds. Well, that's not entirely true because on on Apple's foundation they they found the money for that to do something that that's on the scale of this in terms of like there's so much going on and they're not spent at least I mean like I've watched everything but the last episode of that.
34:20.30
Steven Bagatourian
The.
34:32.48
cbderrick
But they'd spent 3 episodes where they don't hold your hand and I think it's hard for people to get into that show. He's the first episode or 2 because that type of storytelling demands your attention and as much as people want to you know to watch shows and be in and then with all this deep stuff and watch these tent hours and bla bla bo bench shit. Yeah I think they want to binge shit but they don't want to really pay attention to it. They just want to be like like in the ride and this is this is the thing that makes you go no no no no no I'll put you on the ride but I want you to read a book while you're on the ride too because I got all this yous some pamphlets you got to read to understand the ride.
35:04.12
Steven Bagatourian
Ah, yeah.
35:10.90
cbderrick
And it but I mean and and that might sound like oh I don't want to read? This is a lot to read but but but if you if anyone would take the chance to go find the omnibuses or this the floppies onibuses are on Ebayss where I got them. Um, you probably get them on Amazon because they're they're probably too dark horse at this point. Um, you like you will not be disappointed on any level if you love space opera if you love fucking coolass comics terms of the art and the storytelling and the page and the the the whole the whole technical side. Whole artistic, a technical side. Is is is incredible for a book that's 40 so almost forty years old right? This is it'd be forty years old and like 3 years right I mean it's actually shocking how how modern this book feels.
35:50.94
Steven Bagatourian
Wow, Fuck yeah. Um, it really does feel modern Man. It feels very timeless in a certain way.
36:05.44
cbderrick
I mean because ah because I think it's cool about it. It's like you know because look because when we read when we read ah Grando which is autismally set in the future. It feels like is is somebody who's envisioning a future that would never exist.
36:13.85
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah.
36:21.73
cbderrick
You know terms of where we are now like oh like like the world moved away from this direction you know and I mean it's sort of like that was like but if you watch blade runner like that's ah that's a hair a horrifying vision. But now that we are. We've passed Twenty Nineteen terms of what that when that movie was set. There's things in that movie that. Could could never come to pass but this is designed in a way and the the way they built this future. It makes you feel like it's oh this could happen like in a way that star trek has that sense of like os the future but the cool thing about this is. If you look at star trek from this time periodce there's 80 forces around the time of wrath of con like it doesn't like that feels dated. You know terms of the design of it like the the set design everything like that feels dated and this doesn't feel dated but the costumes the politics the weaponry the type of people.
37:02.36
Steven Bagatourian
Yes.
37:16.16
cbderrick
Their language. It doesn't feel dated and that's and that's a really fascinating feat for the creative team have created something that has got that kind of like ah but this timelessness from from and and a book that and anything and it's a book that like people don't know about.
37:27.63
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah.
37:34.66
cbderrick
I I know no anyone who talks about this book when they talk about the books that are the favorite books from the 80 s or the 90 s you know.
37:37.67
Steven Bagatourian
Totally no, no totally. This book is like this book is an object lesson in the kind of comics that we really were inspired to create this podcast to discuss and to cover like these books that are shockingly well done that like.
37:49.22
cbderrick
Yeah.
37:55.12
Steven Bagatourian
No one talks about or no one remembers or is even aware of and you're just like what the fuck like this was incredible. Comic booking this was extraordinary writing and drawing and storytelling and the fact that the book is not more well known or just discussed more is. Absurd because it's an incredible piece of work. Um, and you know in terms of the costume design like that's a really interesting point you're making Chris in regard to the timeless nature of it because I do think the costume designs are really like elegant and minimal. But also kind of iconic just these like silver sort of chest plates shoulder plates and you know like just so just like these silver like I guess like bits of armor that are like protecting different like you know important body parts of the legionnaires and then you've got black body suits under them.
38:40.99
cbderrick
Right.
38:50.14
Steven Bagatourian
And then various weapons you know like you know guns and whatnot ammunition straps and pouches and shit on top of that. But it's basically some version of the same uniform for each of the alien members of the alien legion depending upon their body though it looks different because some of them are like giant snails giant like. You know, crazy looking weird creatures frog creatures squid creatures whatever looking aliens you know snakes. So it's this iconic sort of body armor. You know, futuristic body armor that you can put on any alien form and it's really smart again. Just getting to like siroko and the thought. Went into all this and I'm assuming it was sirocco. Maybe it was Carl Potts because I know Carl Potts also was an artist as well as a writer. Maybe he designed these uniforms. It would be interesting to to hear. But yeah, yeah, like.
39:34.34
cbderrick
To find out if yeah, definitely to find out what the stories and I mean I mean I think was was cool too about it is is that there's a couple characters. You know there's torque done. There's like jugged Grimrod who who have kind of like they've kind of have those little personal add-ons to They're kind of you know like they like their lesion armor like both of them had those helmets that you know are not regulation. You know they're not yeah yeah, yeah, you know and and and and he's got that little He's got that secret knife that's in his hand where he can like sly people and he's got that little like.
39:56.74
Steven Bagatourian
Oh yeah, oh and like and like Jugger like Jugger Jugger grimrod he's got his helmet. Yeah.
40:09.42
Steven Bagatourian
Um, yeah, oh right? yes.
40:12.28
cbderrick
Yeah, the steel frisbee that he that's like which is and it's and the thing this is this is criminal me right? It's it's like this is why I know this book has like because they ran I think 20 some issues in Epic which means that it was the expensive comic to produce because they. You know they they couldn't run any ads in it. So It was always like triple the price of of a normal comic but it ran I think 20 issues epic and then they pulled it over to dark horse for a while and did some dark horse issues. There were these double size issues. But the thing is is that so there's a there was There was a fan base that like this.
40:45.23
Steven Bagatourian
I think there were 2 two epic runs I think it did 1 epic run and then another epic run and then it then it jumped ship from there if yeah.
40:50.42
cbderrick
Right? Yeah right, right? that you're absolutely right? Absolutely right? But the thing I'm saying is that fucking steel frisbee that's used in by by jugger no one has used that in 40 years in anything else in any other. Science fiction comic or science fiction movie I know ones how to use that you know and and he also and he also has that Garrett that he uses to like kill people and from it and um and which what you know was not regulation. You know it's that regulation which was which and ah, you know what the thing is is that this was a character that I felt.
41:10.65
Steven Bagatourian
Um, right right? Yeah, yeah, yes.
41:28.53
cbderrick
Is in line with a character like wolverine a character like Lobo you know a character like venom where they were. They felt like these outsiders among outsiders who kind of these lone wolfs in a way.
41:42.70
Steven Bagatourian
This.
41:44.55
cbderrick
and I and I always felt that jugged Grimrod was the coolest version of all those characters because he just had this. He just he just had this give a fuck attitude but it never got in the way with with him and like fitting within the unit I think that's the interesting way that that works for him. You know.
41:54.64
Steven Bagatourian
Um, yeah, yeah, no.
42:03.60
cbderrick
There all this kind of like this this I mean like a cop who had like ah, a garage and ah you know and a and a secret switch blade and like in a fucking steal because he used that that frisbe to like crush people's head and shit like that like throw real fat I mean it's like God Damn do like I mean and and you know this' not like.
42:15.66
Steven Bagatourian
And.
42:21.75
cbderrick
You know it's it's it's ah such a smart character to have and he's any, but he's not like overly um, he's not too much of a lo wolf the way like Lobo is or you know like like or fucking wolverine. That's why I kind of never liked those characters when they got to be like so long left out because I'm just kind of like.
42:32.38
Steven Bagatourian
5 right.
42:41.75
cbderrick
That's tired to me and it feels like that you're making them to be like a dirty harryy eque the the apex of that for no apparent reason's except that you just want to show someone who's just you know's like chaotic neutral in terms of their ah but their operation but the operational system you know I think you made an interesting point about. That did did Linda law get get inspired by this. Um I just possibility.
43:03.89
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah I don't I don't know. Yeah I mean it just strikes me that he was obviously reading watchmen and all that back in the day and that's you know, right around the same time period within ah within a couple of years and and and and lindelof's father if I'm not mistaken which was a big comic book reader and you know.
43:13.44
cbderrick
Yeah, yeah for sure. Um, yeah.
43:21.94
Steven Bagatourian
This might be the kind of book. Maybe his dad was into you know that he would see lying around the house.
43:24.59
cbderrick
Well, that's interesting because you know I remember he was telling me or or he said I know he said this but it's like his dad had introduced him to watchmen you know and and and and because it's because he was like a I think he was a little maybe a little too young to to maybe have like bought that.
43:31.58
Steven Bagatourian
Um, yeah, yeah, that's right I read that too. Yeah.
43:40.17
Steven Bagatourian
The v.
43:42.17
cbderrick
I mean I don't know I mean you know that was at a time when they did at least something that that I remember comic stores kind of enforced that you know the the certain stories that yeah that had that parental advisory on it. You know because I remember he was saying 1 time in me interview or somewhere else. He was like.
43:49.11
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, certain stores certain certain stores totally did. Yep.
43:59.52
cbderrick
Ah, the first time that he saw like a rape in a comic was in what was in washman with his like so was it's not silk specter but maybe was silk. Expect remember yeah original suspector gives gives the comedian. Yeah um, but I think there's like some stuff like in this comic that was kind of like.
44:00.37
Steven Bagatourian
Oh yeah, yeah. Um I think it was the original the original silk specter I believe was rape with rape a comedian. Yeah.
44:19.42
cbderrick
There's like a level of like um um I mean look I mean look this comic predates full metal jacket right? Yeah cause it's 84 right and fullmatic is an 87
44:29.98
Steven Bagatourian
Oh does it? Oh wow. Yeah yeah.
44:37.10
cbderrick
In full middle jacket those guys turn on pile into ah dissimilar to that one guy I forget his name that you know that they kill they they I mean like yeah Scott. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, they think he's like a ah a tradeitor to think he's a coward.
44:44.39
Steven Bagatourian
I was like stop scobb or something scobb. Yeah yes.
44:53.89
cbderrick
You know and they and and you know and and they just whoop on I mean and he tries to fight back and they fight him and.
44:57.15
Steven Bagatourian
Um, yeah, and that that shocked me by the way that shocked me that they killed him like literally like at the end of that issue I was like whoa fuck like he's dead and that was a really sad like a lot of these issues these early issues end with really sad endings which to me feels like.
45:05.51
cbderrick
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
45:15.63
Steven Bagatourian
Curiously and remarkably honest for a comic that's about like war and wartime like there's so many these endings like it reminds me of like my favorite old Tv show a homicide life on the street like that show would frequently end with the homicide cops in the Baltimore Pd where that show was set. They would not catch the killer.
45:31.52
cbderrick
Um, right.
45:33.47
Steven Bagatourian
And that would be the end of the episode and like more times than not. That's how the episode would end. They would either not catch the killer or they would catch the killer but they'd get off on some technicality and and I remember hearing like you know Tom Fontana and Barry Levinson talking about homicide how they were just like yeah the show is heavily researched and that's what happens in real life.
45:40.51
cbderrick
Right.
45:52.43
Steven Bagatourian
Like in real life. It's not like the homicide cops have like 100% closure rate. You know there's a whole lot of names on the board that just the cases never get resolved. You know, right? right? yeah.
45:58.16
cbderrick
The state that stay on the board. Yeah, good. Yeah cause I because I think I think that was what was cool about I think that what was cool about homicide was they had that that that that board there for the for the their murder board and some people some people some people had then there was names on there.
46:09.96
Steven Bagatourian
Um, yes, yep, yep, a whiteboard. Yeah for for seasons. Yeah yeah.
46:17.86
cbderrick
You know when it begins and I mean that there was that priine and um I mean that like like um, what's the guy's name. Ah so forget his name but not ija about his partner. Ah Kyl Cco yeah Yeah tim bayli
46:26.60
Steven Bagatourian
Ah, Andre Andre Brower oh oh yeah l cor the detective detective Tim Balis yep that's right? Oh oh my god they set it up.
46:36.92
cbderrick
He has that killing with that girl in the first in the first first. The first episode that they never solve that they never solve.
46:45.38
Steven Bagatourian
And but it's like and it's by the way it's so many years later like I think it's literally 3 or 4 seasons later on homicide that they actually reveal why that case meant so much to bayliss and you find out episode or season 3 or 4 you find out that Tim Balis's character was sexually abused as a child.
46:53.21
cbderrick
Um, yeah.
46:59.40
cbderrick
Um, yeah, yeah.
47:02.21
Steven Bagatourian
And he had this incredible anger and rage and sort of ferocity in when he was hunting you know, ah people who had done this to children because it touched this like deep chord within him and I remember when I saw that pay off you know seasons into the show fucking blew my mind because I was like you you.
47:17.30
cbderrick
Yeah, in the pilot and now you gonna play it off I mean the crazy was was crazy is is they're saying to yourself. Let's hope we get enough seasons till we can pay this off because because you know because because it back then.
47:20.26
Steven Bagatourian
Other fuckers set this up in the pilot like what that's wild.
47:31.85
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, right right.
47:35.53
cbderrick
There was no like season order I mean like like a show could or show could have been pulled at any time just like it is now but it was even but I think there was more um, ah ah I think I think that I maybe I don't know but television back then.
47:40.83
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah.
47:53.30
cbderrick
Seemed a lot more cutthroat with shows getting pulled because there wasn't particularly in the last five or six years or maybe different on broadcast but but that's because there that because at that time all there was was broadcast and it it's like if you weren't good enough. You were getting yanked and it's like every year
47:57.50
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah.
48:03.15
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, um, and homicide almost it almost got yanked I think every year it was on it was hanging by hanging by a thread because their the ratings are terrible.
48:13.12
cbderrick
But red and ah and on top on top of that it was coming on on Fridays which they nose no impence all this wildass shit but see again that goes to the staying power of alien legion because this book ran I think this book was.
48:22.48
Steven Bagatourian
Yes, yes.
48:30.51
cbderrick
I Don't know because I don't have the the the the the singles in front of me I think it came out by monthly I don't know if it came out monthly or not.
48:34.70
Steven Bagatourian
And it did absolutely absolutely. It was bi monthly which when you look at fucking siroko's exquisite art with Terry Austin it makes all the sense in the world because I don't know how you I don't know how you do this on a monthly schedule. It's just it's too much.
48:43.35
cbderrick
Right? that you know so so so but but but but my point is you know there's always a thing about a book that was bimonthly. It was the death Knell for that book. You know I think I think I think the only other book that I remember.
48:57.30
Steven Bagatourian
Oh right right? so.
49:02.31
cbderrick
Was a bi-monthly book around this time was that first Dr. strange series that one that ah Paul Smith had done art on and stuff like that because that because that one because that one when I got when I was started buying it I think I bought I 59 was one one of the first uses that I bought and I was kind of like yeah but he's been around since the 60 s.
49:08.77
Steven Bagatourian
Whoa! Oh wow.
49:20.27
cbderrick
How was the book on like fifty nine I was like oh is this bi monththly so it so itd really be 120 but but but for this book to be bimonthly and to be like double triple the price of a fucking normal comic.
49:22.10
Steven Bagatourian
Right.
49:34.62
cbderrick
Effort to last for like 24 issues or something like that I mean so it's a fourish. It's a 4 year run at it's ah you know that's such an expensive book that it just a testament to how much the fans who did read this loved it because they kept they were. We want this.
49:49.20
Steven Bagatourian
Oh yeah, oh.
49:53.58
cbderrick
We want this and we'll pay the extra money and we'll wait the extra month to read the nextalment and we'll just and it was enough for them to keep the is I bet you this book got canceled because I don't know why I get canceled I was have my head right now we haven't looked in a research on it which we'll we'll talk about it in ah in the.
50:09.77
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, yeah.
50:12.88
cbderrick
And the part 2 like ah like of this conversation but there I bet you is because if it ran 48 if it ran 12 issues. That's so that's forty eight months it's 84 so so now we're talking about somewhere the late 90 and late eighty s early ninety s. Ah, sort of Marvel started of getting in trouble with its finances. You know there was that one is that one that observations talked about how there was like they were almost in the bankruptcy like the late ninety late I I bet you this up because the whole epic line got canceled. You know it it. It.
50:38.90
Steven Bagatourian
Right? Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, the entire line the entire line got yanked and I think after after Archie Goodwin died and you know and like you said the bankruptcy thing and Ron Perilman and all that chaos going on there and the 90 s and image comics happening like there wasn't a place for creator- owned comics at these mainstream companies anymore you know and I think because that's because that's the bottom line too with these books like the epic books like Marvel couldn't monetize these books. To the same level as their normal books because they were creator owned and like that's why Stalin Stalin took dread star to first you know and and like grew grew got taken eventually to you know, fucking dark horse and yeah and alien leech and like you say also so I think yeah, it just became.
51:12.57
cbderrick
Um, right right? Dark dark rush to darkers. Yeah yeah, even with the dark horse. Yeah.
51:27.51
Steven Bagatourian
I think without having Archie Goodwin there as an advocate for the for this line I think it was just really hard to justify its existence especially when like the stark financial realities of comics in the 90 s started to hit and it's like I'm sure all the higher up mucky amongs and Marvel were like wait. Why. Why are we spending all this money on these books that barely sell that we don't even own. Oh for artistic reasons like no, no, no, we're not, we're not doing that who's whose idea was that no, we're not doing that.
51:48.39
cbderrick
Oh no, that oh that they yeah this has to go? Um, yeah yeah I mean and and and and the thing is the thing is that and it it's it's kind of sad in a way because I see what we look. This is the book that. This is a book that might have been subsidized by the by all the other books in the epic line. Um I don't really know but I'm sure that there was I'm sure that the the but no no here's what it is right? This book. If. It's if it's part of the Marvel contract for the printing you know there's probably a discount that we're getting for volume discount. You know they're doing hey there's gonna be this many books that that will give you to print blah blah blah so you know so the the printer could determine how much money they were gonna make and I figure like at places like dark horse. They were never able to do the volume of comics to get the level of discounts that you could do to do a book like this. That's why it didn't probably last like like at dark horse because a dark horse in the book came out. It was like. 48 pages or some 32 pages and it was on backs to paper and I think this issues was like four ninety five at a time what when comics like like might have been like two 25 maybe at the time or maybe not even that maybe I'm not sure what they were in like the early 90 s but this book was probably the price point on this was somebody you really high at dark horse.
53:03.24
Steven Bagatourian
A wow.
53:19.21
cbderrick
And and it and it couldn't go to image obviously because image the artists you know, like like the books are subsidized. You know I mean like the artists pay for those you know you know I'm saying like it's not like the like images that pay you to do that work. You know me.
53:26.82
Steven Bagatourian
Um, yeah, yeah, right? You're not getting a page rate most of the time an image. You're not getting a page rate like almost all with right.
53:37.89
cbderrick
Yeah, yeah I mean you own it outright and if you book sells and you get you know like the the lion's share of it. But I feel like ah that's why I think there's a lot of guys who are great fucking writers and artists particularly artists who who fucking never did a work for image because because because I don't think that they could financially afford to do a book.
53:49.90
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, yeah.
53:56.37
Steven Bagatourian
Oh oh I know I know it? Yeah, you're totally right? I've talked I've talked to some of the some of those cats too and like you know people you know who are cartoonist and artists and and it's hard sometimes because you're like oh man, you should own your own work like why are you? you know why are you just doing corporate work and they're like yeah, do you want to explain that to my spouse How I'm gonna go.
53:56.93
cbderrick
For like you know, like to like to prep for book for three to four months you know.
54:13.21
cbderrick
Um, yeah.
54:15.72
Steven Bagatourian
Work for free for six months or a year on the hope that hopefully my book will sell you know? yeah and it's a tough thing.
54:19.50
cbderrick
The yeah, the book sells. Yeah yeah, well yeah, cause ah it's because there's there's 2 guys fuck there was a guy what is his name who looks up real quick I'll tell you this guy's name. Um, he did a book up. He was a artist and. He did did a book. Um, ah who the fuck is this soon? Ah, ah it was a book but here it is here it is here it is. It's called um. It's called shock rockets.
54:55.48
Steven Bagatourian
Oh yeah, that was the Kurt buscyx Stewart Stewart Eminen book
54:58.88
cbderrick
You right? right? right? right? by right right? by right? Ah, all right? So ah, steart is someone who I fucking always loved as artist I think was retired now here but the other guy know who's that there was um is like a.
55:06.99
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
55:16.71
cbderrick
But there's a spanish artist named Savado Loroca so it was it was it was savado arocca and Stu and stuwart sort niman and they kind of came out at the same time. They've kind of a very they're there's their're styles so great and it's very similar and I always wish those guys had done some creativeor own work.
55:18.48
Steven Bagatourian
Sure.
55:33.98
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, yeah, imminent that's that's a good point I don't know I'm trying to think he did some creator and work with his wife later like his his wife Catherine she's a writer and I think they did some like some work together that they owned.
55:35.41
cbderrick
Because I think I think shock rockets are the only thing that he did for a long time and.
55:49.99
Steven Bagatourian
But not nothing that was like a really long run if I recall.
55:51.98
cbderrick
No no because yeah, because this because that guy named salvaroca oh I mean there's not like I love his work I mean I remember there's a book he did with um it was what is it called. It was a book that they had that Kirk Bus wrote and um.
55:55.59
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah.
56:11.45
cbderrick
Came out in the oh no no no I'm sorry it's um, this you know it is. It's Carlos Pacheko who
56:16.37
Steven Bagatourian
Okay, okay, that's I was gonna say I was surprised that you were saying you loved Laroca so much because Larocca's work has gotten very computery like over the last couple decades like he's gotten increasingly kind of just computery with his work and it it looks not as organic. Okay, okay, it's check macheko. Okay I'm with you I'm with you totally.
56:27.95
cbderrick
Yeah, so it's it's not him is it's not him. It's not him. it's it's it's pacheco it's cardos pacheco and and who I think is retired from comics a couple years ago I think you retired yeah but but but he was someone who who who who who I said to myself why is he doing a fucking creator on book.
56:35.64
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, yeah, oh did he really I didn't know that Pachekco is amazing. Yeah, he's incredible.
56:44.83
Steven Bagatourian
Oh yeah, yeah, oh oh you know what? you know he did do he did do a creator on book actually also this might have been part of what you you know what? you were thinking of maybe with shockrockets or I guess no, it's maybe shockrockets is creator own for imminent and beautycyc but bussak did one with Pacheko called um.
56:47.31
cbderrick
He's so fucking good and he never and I don't think he ever did one.
57:04.60
cbderrick
Yes, yes, yes.
57:04.27
Steven Bagatourian
Aerosmith and aerosmith. Yeah, yeah, and not spelled like the band but spelled like an arrow that flies through the air flash smith and it was actually a pretty fully formed world if I recall it was like a war story that was set in a world where magic existed.
57:09.63
cbderrick
Right.
57:19.32
cbderrick
Right.
57:20.97
Steven Bagatourian
There was like magical dragons plus like dudes in a platoon at war and it was a really like beautiful looking dope looking book like it was like you know pacheko in peak form and I remember I I bought it and I think it lasted like 6 issues or something but I think it just never really sparked. People's imagination.
57:33.38
cbderrick
I don't think I mean I I mean look I mean I think I think that this is what's sad and I know it's a dove time. But I mean I think interesting is that you know Kurt Busk is a fantastic like writer and I and I think it.
57:47.39
Steven Bagatourian
Amazing writer, Amazing writer.
57:51.40
cbderrick
But I think his only real success outside of Marvel and Dc work is Astro City I think it's because Astro City is superhero stuff people can and it's like it's the it's that version of like marvels.
58:01.81
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
58:08.99
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, yeah.
58:10.93
cbderrick
But but his own kind of thing but like but there was a book that he did I don't remember the artist it was called Autumn lands that is fucking amazing that is amazing. You know so.
58:17.41
Steven Bagatourian
Um, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that's that's incredible. It's Ben Benjamin Dewey is the artist on it and he's incredible too. It's a it's a stunning stunning looking book.
58:29.22
cbderrick
I was talking to him on Twitter the other day maybe two weeks ago and he said they're they're they're coming back with some moistures of autumn land soon. But but but it's been like five six years seven years in that book you know, but but that's an example of a great artist. A great writer and their books didn't hit.
58:33.74
Steven Bagatourian
So oh that's awesome. That's awesome. It's It's a beautiful book. Yeah.
58:48.74
cbderrick
On the way that you need to be so like like the guy who makes this stuff work really well for image is is rimander right? Ah, he does ah his stuff always really sells but I'm not taking away from him. But I think that his work is more popcory than I think then what the stuff that cururt put picked is.
59:04.62
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah I I think Beauty Yeah Beautyx work to me is much stronger from like a writing perspective. Yeah yeah, Beauty Yeah Beautyu is like a masterful world builder and he's great at Dialogue and he's great at character like Beauty it. Yeah, he's masterful.
59:08.71
cbderrick
It. It's so stronger for so strong as food was stronger. And he's greater the emotion I mean um I even like I mean I remember I remember there there was issues of ah I think Asshtroshi is coming come back too. But I remember that that first run of Astro City like there was that guy who was the jack in the box character.
59:27.39
Steven Bagatourian
Um, oh yeah, yeah yeah.
59:33.89
cbderrick
It was just like some of the issues and the stuff he would come up with you'd just be like dude like where is your brain because it's so fucking. Fantastic Um, and I just just feel like I feel like that's like it's it's the crime of comics that don't fit within.
59:37.95
Steven Bagatourian
Um, yeah, yes.
59:52.40
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
59:53.37
cbderrick
The mold of what people like want to read and like again because like ah you you were saying with this like this is a book that if I gave it to you as a thirteen year old now I don't know if the deal now would like this because it's it's these this is demand too much of his attention. You know.
01:00:07.22
Steven Bagatourian
And yeah I think you're right I think you're right and I think for a lot of people kids and just people they might find this book to be too like too confusing but also kind of like dry and adult in a certain way because it's so realistic and it's more. But to me, it's more like if you spend time with this book you fall into a rhythm with it where like you feel like you're just kind of living in this world with these characters and it's a very subtle form of storytelling like you say at the beginning you know we don't get to meet these characters in a traditional sense like other than little encyclopedia pages like we just. Just jump in like it's episode 19 of a story. We've been watching forever and I think for some people it's just too big of a leap like the amount of attention required to like go into this world.
01:00:50.90
cbderrick
Well, what? Well yeah because as I think we talked about this one time. Maybe last time you're talking about something about how like Saga right? So Saga is a book that issue one is the premise pilot of that you know it's like hey these people they have a baby.
01:01:03.59
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:01:09.85
cbderrick
They're from the waring factions people want the baby because but blah blah and this story takes off um this doesn't do that at all like like this totally rolls like you said like like it rolls like a Hill Street blues type of story but because it's not like a cop precinct.
01:01:20.58
Steven Bagatourian
Yes.
01:01:28.14
cbderrick
There's a lot more that that there there's a lot more weight of story that you have to invite you to keep you could keep handling and the thing is cool to me. It's cool is they don't let up East issues like uses more weight you more weight here's more ease more weight.
01:01:32.83
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah. No, it's real.. It's relentless Dude. It's Fucking. It's fucking. Oh My God Yeah, it's fucking relentless and the more you read It. You're just like oh my God like more character is more shit to take in and it is like Hill Street Blues meets platoon in outer Space. You know which is fucking wild.
01:01:50.49
cbderrick
Yeah, yeah, yeah, um, you know? Um, yeah I mean the thing about but see the thing about it too is that that that's real interesting and and this is something that has like affected how I write So I'll tell you about but this is why I know that what this is is because if you think about.
01:01:55.82
Steven Bagatourian
Like it's a great idea.
01:02:04.45
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah.
01:02:10.26
cbderrick
How this you know hold over again. Um, why is this working I Just want to write down is it. He seriously boze mesoon because there might be I I because I would have pitched this to someone because I I because I think someone would love this I mean somebody would um, but ah.
01:02:16.93
Steven Bagatourian
Ah. Ah, it is you should man you really should Jerry Brookheimer Jerry Brookhammer tried to make it apparently for quite a while right? Yeah, you're right? You're right? That's the wrong form. It's totally wrong.
01:02:28.88
cbderrick
Um, yeah, but as a movie I think you this a tv show and and I think I think would and I think we really jump. Um, but but see if this is like every issue of I'm looking at it now right? Every issue. Does this thing where it begins with a character that doesn't have anything to do not every issue but the the first few of them it begins with like here. Let's jump into the world show you something that's set in the world.
01:03:03.89
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, right right.
01:03:06.40
cbderrick
But's nothing to do with the main characters you know and and even in issue one like the first people like like the you know there's 2 there's this the like like the legship gets blown out of the air and you follow the 1 guy down and he's like oh oh my god and you think he's gonna be the star of this. This at least of this episode or this issue not the series and this whole platoon gets killed by that guy who's like the the pirate you're like whoa and it's like 4 or 5 pages for you jump to that you that you meet like Normand Squadron and you're like oh here are the people I'm gonna follow actually and to me.
01:03:27.51
Steven Bagatourian
So yes, yeah.
01:03:42.10
cbderrick
That kind of like it's it's I was you know I was thinking of I thinking of calling my production company. Um, ah misdirect. You know you know you know because hered so the so a Magician he's he's he's he's got to misdirect you with the story is that's how I like stories.
01:03:51.57
Steven Bagatourian
Um, um, yeah, yeah.
01:04:01.68
cbderrick
And realize it because I like it's like this. It's like I'm a she part of the world and then we get to the people you know as opposed to let let the people interact with let your character interact with the world. So you see it through their eyes I mean and I think that's I mean I I think I I mean this I look.
01:04:05.63
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah.
01:04:19.44
cbderrick
This book done today or this book done as a tv show or a movie. It has to I nothing it has to but people would demand the the word of the the executives and everyone like that that your main character has got to be somebody. It's like their first day in the legion.
01:04:37.42
Steven Bagatourian
You? Yep yeah.
01:04:38.70
cbderrick
You know because it's like hey you're showing me a world I don't know think about so give me someone else who who who who doesn't we think about that I mean was that show I don't really like it but I remember it's interesting pilot. Um, scandal right? The the the sea rohymes. Yeah Ki watching.
01:04:51.25
Steven Bagatourian
Oh yeah, the carryo care Washington show.
01:04:57.30
cbderrick
That show begins with some girl who just got out of law school or just or or switching to work for Ky Washington's character and she meets somebody at this recruiting meeting and then and she gets hired and she gets brought into them and is a case that's happening as is you know is intercutting with. The case of the episode with this woman being hired and it's like oh she's brought into this fixture law firm and she knows nothing about it and we the audience like learn about it as she's learning about it. She's the new person and and look and that's a very typical way to. To to bring you into a world that you've never seen before you know and it's usually these little niche worlds and stuff like that like obviously like ah ah like a law firm. We know but a fix your law firm is different. So how does that really work. What's the difference and I think that. That's what these guys don't do in this book. They don't they don't care that you need help to understand and I mean I mean and look if you're listening to this, you might feel like well fuck these writers man because they're helping me understand this story.
01:05:51.88
Steven Bagatourian
They don't give you that they don't give you that. Nope yeah good.
01:06:06.41
Steven Bagatourian
Ah.
01:06:08.58
cbderrick
You're absolutely wrong. You'll love every page of this comic like like these si for 6 pages that we ran. We're talking about now you fucking love every page of this I mean and there are some Dis pages in terms of like this like language and stuff like that. But it's but it's so beautiful.
01:06:21.18
Steven Bagatourian
Oh yeah.
01:06:25.88
cbderrick
And it's one of those things where it's like the like the the artists guys did such a great job with like how they design the characters that it that it doesn't feel like we're trying to be crazy to be crazy because if you look at like Star Wars Sometimes those characters are designed just to be crazy look work cause we don't know what else to do.
01:06:31.44
Steven Bagatourian
Um, yeah.
01:06:42.87
Steven Bagatourian
So yeah.
01:06:44.73
cbderrick
But it's like but but but but this book comes out in the wake of return of the Jedi and there's and and every character in this it like in this feels like it could have been in a Star Wars like movie but Star Wars people like like weren't smart enough to create characters look like this.
01:07:00.46
Steven Bagatourian
Um, yeah, and the old oh the but the Bob of that show. Yeah.
01:07:02.16
cbderrick
You know, like the the the character designers and even now book of bubble which I just watched the other night which which I don't think people should watch is terrible. So bad. So so bad which I might talk about on the rant room next time I do one of those but um, but I just feel like.
01:07:12.27
Steven Bagatourian
Ah, oh shit I Want to hear that.
01:07:21.14
cbderrick
These guys did I mean look obviously here enough is interesting too like again you were saying like the politics and the real world I think its issue is issue 3 that there's that that that kid. Yeah oh oh yeah, yeah is is it issue I think issue 3 is that the one where they.
01:07:28.38
Steven Bagatourian
Oh good I'm glad you're you're mentioning this I wanted to talk about issue 3 actually in the backup story is also fascinating but but go on.
01:07:40.66
cbderrick
Thursday's they there's that the the those terrorists have kidnapped the person and they are are or was that issue 4
01:07:44.42
Steven Bagatourian
Um, let me see issue 4 is actually um, issue four I think is the one that might be my favorite issue which is the Tory Mantru solo issue where he's he's having hallucinations and stuff.
01:07:56.23
cbderrick
Okay, are ah yeah, okay, yeah, but okay, yeah, so okay, it's it's issue 3 that they're there to there to protect. There's like some little ah conclave between like some people you know like some some some some un politics shit going on right.
01:08:10.84
Steven Bagatourian
Um, right? yes.
01:08:13.71
cbderrick
And ah and the thing that's interesting about this is the the the terrorists they kidnap a guy and they switch his brain because they are pacifist terrorists and they don't want to like commit any real crime like any explosions any death or they're like that I think that's the.
01:08:21.51
Steven Bagatourian
Yes, right? yes. Um, yeah, yeah, they don't want to hurt anybody yet? Yes, Yeah yeah.
01:08:33.59
cbderrick
Hurt anybody and I'm just kind of like that's a really cool like design too like they're like how we're gonna do that. How are we gonna do that I mean I'm not gonna spoil how it fucking ends if people need to read it. But it's a really cool fucking way to to it. It adds ah ah adds another level of like obstacle.
01:08:42.70
Steven Bagatourian
Um, yeah.
01:08:52.20
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, you're right? It's so unique and it's so creative. The idea that our villains are pacifist terrorists who do ah a fucking brain swap rather than Kidnap and potentially hurt people or explode a bomb somewhere. Yeah, it's yeah yeah, it's really.
01:08:52.27
cbderrick
Even for the villain to succeed at his plan. You know.
01:09:05.10
cbderrick
Yeah, yeah, put a bomb. Yeah, yeah, it's yeah because it's it's yeah, it's I mean and what's cool is what's cool is you know those people. Um I mean but but but again, that's an episode where or issue where.
01:09:11.43
Steven Bagatourian
Super unique.
01:09:22.92
cbderrick
Politics fuck with the legion like the legion can't get a win in this like they I mean I mean like like like they get a win. Yeah yeah, yeah, which is but yeah, it is but it's get a sad idiot but you okay.
01:09:25.64
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, oh yeah, oh man, it's 1 more sad sad it's a sad ending. It's a very sad ending. It's like almost every issue ends with like fuck. Yeah fuck. Oh oh, they're dead. Oh they're dead too like it's yeah yeah.
01:09:41.52
cbderrick
Oh it. Oh but but was cool but but the the thing is cool about it is though was cool about it. Is you know what's ah it's not. It's a sad ending. It's just like it's a this. It's a disappointment ending for them like they don't get a big win. No one dies but was but I think what you want to talk about is.
01:09:53.26
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah.
01:09:59.78
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, yeah, the backup story is wild here and like you mentioned the one about saragar earlier and then I think this is the second backup story that had maybe now and this one is so interesting man because like they do something with this backup story and I think with some of the others that I can't remember too many comics.
01:10:00.84
cbderrick
The backstory in this.
01:10:09.10
cbderrick
Yeah.
01:10:18.62
Steven Bagatourian
Doing ever that I've read where they take like incidental moments or incidental characters from the lead story and then kind of like you said with saragar where they took that moment where he got distracted for like a flicker of a moment and then in the backup story. They told you what he was thinking of and what he was remembering here. It's like the. The issue ends this issue about the terrorist it ends with like a newscast where like the very last panel of the main story says area residents identify the dead male as gribbets a down on Hiss Luck Gambler who frequented the cabaret but blah blah and it's just like a newscast about some alien who got killed outside of a cabaret. And you're like huh all right? and then suddenly you get this backup story. That's all about this dude who this random dude who got killed outside of this this cabaret and then you find out that that dude actually was integrally involved in the story in the story itself which is why.
01:11:08.77
cbderrick
In the story. No, no, it's it's It's no, it's though, no New year.
01:11:15.26
Steven Bagatourian
I um, sorry sorry I'm wrestling my cat away from like the computers. So she doesn't make noise. But but yeah and that character who got killed was actually this dude the shady dude who tried to like plan a bomb and like you know, kill some of the legionaries because he was trying to make some money by betting against the success of the legion. At this like cabaret gambling parlor and he placed a bet that these legionnaires who I guess it was being reported on the news that they were out to catch these terrorists and he bet that the legion was going to fail and so he went to go kill them so that he could then win his bet and then get out of debt with the local gang lord. And it's like it's fucking nuts. This is a whole parallel storyline going on in the background of the main story and then at the end you get a backup that tells you all about it and you're like oh that's wild, but it's just this extra layer. That's just like five six layers deep all of a sudden.
01:12:05.30
cbderrick
Mostly see see I mean it's It's so dope like this little bag of sotle so to me because you read it and and you're like who sabotaged their ship when they're when they're flying there like like in your mind you turn in your mind in your mind you're like oh I know.
01:12:15.20
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, yeah, you yeah, you don't know. Yeah. Um, yeah.
01:12:22.99
cbderrick
1 likes the legion but what is this you know and and to kind of set them up in a weird way and it's such a I mean again, it's like you said like this is this is something that this is such a lost type of story because it's so lost because and not early was middle season loss when they're with those.
01:12:33.53
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah.
01:12:42.60
cbderrick
The others on the other side you know where like like you have you saw someone in the background of there who didnt the stupid and then you rolled back and showed what they were doing I mean it's It's such a weird backup. It's a cool backup but just like what happens in it like all of the like you like your boy named um torque done. He's winning all that money and the dude is like.
01:12:42.69
Steven Bagatourian
Oh yeah.
01:12:59.48
Steven Bagatourian
Oh right? Yeah, one of the one of the legion. One of the legion is there. He's gambling. Yeah it. It's wild. Yeah.
01:13:02.44
cbderrick
How a fuck did he anyone on that money who's this dog like what like what's this trick you know like yeah yeah, it's It's such a. It's a crazy I mean it's it's it's I don't know that was so smarts as that and it maybe it. But it's just like it's a different way to tell a story.
01:13:17.96
Steven Bagatourian
That's a great one.
01:13:21.95
cbderrick
That's that people wouldn't I just I ah is that it's discussion I have all the time with my brother about movies Now it's like I don't know if people know how to be dope anymore because they they've not. They're not around enough dope shit to really you know like like like like like.
01:13:35.19
Steven Bagatourian
Um, and who.
01:13:41.60
cbderrick
This is what it is right? I'm watching this thing with him this the dp named um Darius Zabosky who shot last duel shot the martian shot prometheus he ah, he's shot. Um.
01:13:51.85
Steven Bagatourian
Wow.
01:13:57.10
Steven Bagatourian
Sure.
01:13:57.84
cbderrick
Crimson tied with Tony Scott before so he know he knew really for new really's family for a while but he was saying that part of what him and really what he works so well really is he seen all these movies from the 70 s when he was growing up that when he noticed like and he was like oh and he.
01:14:10.80
Steven Bagatourian
Right.
01:14:16.51
cbderrick
He would say we're going really you know like he and I catch we he catch you like we catch each other on what a reference is it something we're doing like oh is remember from this movie or from this movie or from this movie and he was seeing. There's very few filmmakers that that I can do that with and I realize and but he's but he says a lot he says he's like look. It's not that.
01:14:24.58
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah.
01:14:36.47
cbderrick
I'm calling himm with a copy is that I'm it's that I'm saying hey when you're young and you're learning your craft that you that you that you ingest all these images and movies and stuff like that before before you start working in the field that you know that inform what it's it's kind of like a subconscious thing for you. And I know that a lot of people. Um, ah people I remember when I first came out to l a people had a hard time watching movies that were pre 1980 you know so so anything pre eighty was was was kind of like I don't know how that is.
01:15:05.91
Steven Bagatourian
I.
01:15:11.95
cbderrick
And that's partly why I think that's partly why noqueent Tarantino got such a charge because he cherrypicked stuff from movies that the general movie audience had no reference point of at all and and and and and now in the last 5
01:15:25.60
Steven Bagatourian
Ah, right.
01:15:31.10
cbderrick
To six years that I've met people don't want to watch stuff before the year 2000 that much you know so again, there's this like drop off of like all this amazing work that no one even wants to think about into reference and I feel like nowadays saving with comics like everyone is doing comics.
01:15:43.85
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, yeah.
01:15:50.32
cbderrick
Is referencing stuff. That's that's that's ok coant except for these seminal works like ah like a killing joke or or watchman or drug like returns or something like that. But but but these books from the 80 s like this like I can guarantee I'm not as I'm gonna guarantee you but I would bet you that most.
01:15:59.28
Steven Bagatourian
Um, yeah, yeah.
01:16:09.92
cbderrick
Big comic artists I mean like the like the people who are big now who are new like Scott Snyder or the guy who wrote thief of thief of but fif of a thief of Baghdad. No thief of Babylon um, ah yeah Tom King like um, yeah, but chit shit from. Yeah.
01:16:13.55
Steven Bagatourian
Um, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:16:22.46
Steven Bagatourian
Um, ah Tom King oh yeah sheriff sheriff sheriff of babylon yeah I don't know. Yeah, it's a good question Tom Tom King may have because I think Tom King has pretty strong like geek bona feed days like I think.
01:16:29.10
cbderrick
Like I'm not sure if he if he would have read this book or know this book. You know.
01:16:39.90
Steven Bagatourian
He he read a lot but I'll tell you like I was talking to a very big comic artist like a major Marvel comics artist and I don't I don't want to throw him under the bus on the show but he's a really really cool guy. A really nice dude but I was just talking to him at a show a couple years ago and I mentioned to him that his work reminded me in some of the line work. A little bit of Pete Craig Russell
01:16:56.68
cbderrick
By.
01:16:58.39
Steven Bagatourian
And and he looked at me and he was like you know you're like the second or third person to say that to me at this show and like I got to admit I'm embarrassed but I don't even know who Pete Craig Russell is and and I was like was like wow like and this is someone who's like a you know young upand coming artist. He was probably like in his late 20 s early 30 s at that time but he was like 1 of the big up and coming artists at you know at Marvel Dc like he was a major artist and it kind of blew me away. He's a brilliant artist but it blew me away that he wasn't even familiar at all with Pete Craig Russell
01:17:30.77
cbderrick
Is I mean look it's I mean I mean I mean look there's that there's a big genre ah executive producer that I know and he and I were talking and we.
01:17:32.53
Steven Bagatourian
Like and that's shocking to me.
01:17:49.44
cbderrick
And he I mean he's he's older me he somebody like 53 or so my dad so he's to be older than me but he's a big you know comic fan I was talking about this stuff. He's rid of some big comic shows. He's all this kind of stuff and he was saying something about how.
01:17:53.16
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah.
01:18:07.91
cbderrick
He didn't know that Thanos had a brother named Eros and I said to him I was like you don't know about Jim Darwin's work from when he was working on Marvel he was like I was a supply spot of mine I'm sorry I'm sorry I was like wait a minute.
01:18:12.52
Steven Bagatourian
But.
01:18:24.35
Steven Bagatourian
Um.
01:18:25.49
cbderrick
Wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute you were like a teenager in the height of your comic reading years when that stuff was being published and you have spent your whole life like like working in genre television.
01:18:31.48
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, yeah. How? how is how is that a blind spot for you. That's like if you or I said like 80 s comics were a blind spot for us like like that's that's what yeah.
01:18:44.51
cbderrick
Yeah, like how does that make sense I mean I mean I mean um I was I was like no I was like of course he has a brother named Dan look. You're not gonna create a cu named with Thanos and not have his opposite beat euros you're just not gonna do that like doesn't make any sense I mean look and I mean it doesn't make any sense I mean I mean if you think about it.
01:18:56.39
Steven Bagatourian
Um.
01:19:02.34
cbderrick
It's so smart on Stalin's part to do that. But you know ah I remember there was a character in Spiderman 2099 which up with no one talks about either. But that's a great series. A great fucking series. Yeah great leonardi with Peter David on ah, that's what that's one of Peter David's
01:19:03.14
Steven Bagatourian
Sure. So.
01:19:15.48
Steven Bagatourian
It's great. The great the great Rickley and arty m.
01:19:22.13
cbderrick
Best comic stories that no one ever talks about but he he had a villain named thanatos in there you know and I was like oh and he was ah and again it was like oh that's a smart choice to make as a writer because you're tapping into like some archetype stuff.
01:19:28.13
Steven Bagatourian
Ah, okay.
01:19:38.38
cbderrick
That the world is that the world like would respond to in a way that doesn't require like a lot of explanation and that's like the Eros thing and the fanos thing. It's like yeah, that's what you would do if you were going to create a thanos you would need.
01:19:45.60
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah.
01:19:54.87
cbderrick
Someone who a feasts to god who worships death you yet have the god worship worships. Love you. Gotta have that. Um, and yeah, but I think yeah feel like I feel like they state that they they did they missed out on Yuy Eros in the Marvel movies. Somehow.
01:20:11.74
Steven Bagatourian
E.
01:20:14.49
cbderrick
I think about it. but um but again that's like the level I don't know that's just like ah this book in terms of like what is trying to do storytelling wise you could do this today like I I if somebody so if somebody big was doing this today.
01:20:27.35
Steven Bagatourian
Um, oh yeah.
01:20:33.44
cbderrick
This book would sell if he would love it. You know it. It would probably take I think you did this today each issue would maybe be 2 issues today you know because you had to like you know? Ah yeah.
01:20:34.53
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, yeah.
01:20:43.33
Steven Bagatourian
Oh oh easily? Oh yeah yeah I mean like in in the world of like post decommpressed storytelling I mean these are these are you know these are dense comics in the best sense of the word like I would just call them highly immersive and full of information. You know all kinds of information visual and story like there's just a lot to take in and also before I forget to comment on it something else I just want to make sure that I that I mention as we talk about this book is that I feel like I've said this about a number of the books we've discussed in our early months here Chris but I got to say these covers by Frank Sooko are just gorgeous like Siroko's work on the covers. He brings such a strong eye for composition and design like to such a level that was unusual in comics particularly back then but so many of these covers are just beautifully beautifully composed and they just look iconic instantly. Like I'm looking at the cover for issue number 1 the covers for issues 3 and 4 are just stunning and you look at cover. No four 4 is so good. It's amazing like that could be a poster It's gorgeous. It's incredible.
01:21:44.26
cbderrick
For um um I mean I mean for it. But I the the the cover of 4 the cover of 4 so fucking. Awesome I think I mean look I told you the 1 for issue 1 definitely was a cover or that it or the inside. Yeah, that.
01:21:56.68
Steven Bagatourian
Um, oh I was a poster. Oh yeah.
01:22:00.85
cbderrick
Yeah, that one but that that inside little fineness piece. Two world was white and and there was that character. Yeah yeah, but I but I think 4 might have been a good but see but look the low design I think it says it was it was since this tiny illustration by him.
01:22:02.72
Steven Bagatourian
Oh yeah, yeah, the little like inside there was like a total poster on like 1 of the early pages. Yeah, and that was beautiful too.
01:22:17.22
Steven Bagatourian
Um, yeah, yeah, oh I think interesting.
01:22:17.72
cbderrick
So so I'm not sure if that means that he did the covers that mean that he did the logo design but the logo design is off the chain too. It's really cool because it's kind of like it's a very the aliens futuristic but the legion is more of like it's just it's it's like a modern.
01:22:27.16
Steven Bagatourian
Um, yeah, yeah, wait who's the logo who's the logo credited to does it say Siroko did the logo or no.
01:22:37.90
cbderrick
Well no I mean I would it says it says tight illustration by him and I don't know if that means the cover or if that means that he did the logo. You know what? like whatever.
01:22:40.81
Steven Bagatourian
Boom.
01:22:47.56
Steven Bagatourian
I'm guess I'm guessing he did I'm guessing he did not do the logos. It seems like that was usually the purview of letter back then like like Todd Klein did a bunch of logos and stuff like that I wonder I don't know if Jim Novak would have designed this logo but I would be really curious because you're right? It's a terrific logo.
01:23:01.87
cbderrick
But it's the but this but but but the thing but this here is the thing right? This guy covers because the because most of them are painted right? Theyve they look like they're wash or watercolors I'm like I know they are but at that time I nobody was they painted covers. You know it.
01:23:07.39
Steven Bagatourian
Um, oh they're so good. Yeah yeah, oh yeah, no, no, not at all.
01:23:19.38
cbderrick
Except except like you said those those those early Marvel graphic novels like death of Captain Marvel and um and which which and anybody who has read or who likes the Marvel universe you need to hunt down that.
01:23:24.69
Steven Bagatourian
Um, yes.
01:23:36.14
Steven Bagatourian
Oh yeah, death of Captain Marvel oh man oh get ready for a good get ready for a good cry if you're gonna read that book. It's very emotional.
01:23:36.54
cbderrick
Death of Captain Marvel which was probably the first was the first like it's the first like major graphic novel but it's a it's a great story great. But I think that was a painted book. The interiors are painted the same way that issue one like this is painted but the covers on this are all painted like that.
01:23:55.70
Steven Bagatourian
They're stunning and and the first I think the first 2 the first 2 covers are I believe siroko by himself or no wait is like nodo Austin it's Austin too. Okay, so yeah Austin actually is inking them over siroko and then I'm guessing.
01:23:55.82
cbderrick
Um, and there's the the.
01:24:08.90
Steven Bagatourian
I don't know if it's Bob Sharon doing the color or if siroko is doing the painted color here because you're right, they look painted but yet Austin's inking them. Yeah, maybe siroko soro yeah siroko might be painting them himself. That's my guess but look at like issue number 3 Chris like the cover for issue 3 you've got 1 2 3 4
01:24:16.38
cbderrick
They're totally painted. They're they're totally painted.
01:24:27.10
Steven Bagatourian
5 members of the legion here in battle with gunfire just whizzing across the cover and every one of these 5 alien legion members is in a different plane of like you know the actual foreground versus the background versus the mid middle ground like they're all situated in a different place and ah. Different area to the point where each one of them successively is like getting smaller and smaller going back and and yet the gunfire and if you look closely you might you see like even some like spaceships whizzing across the top of the logo like just the attention to detail is just stunning man. These covers are all like. Just master classes in cover illustration and design I just had to say that.
01:25:04.89
cbderrick
Yeah, see yeah see st yeah, that's what that's what thing that title title illustration credit means that the he he he painted and drew these and then I bet Terry Austin is did ink on it just to give it like an additional pot because there's if there's a level of like.
01:25:11.23
Steven Bagatourian
M. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
01:25:23.58
cbderrick
There's a level of D There's a little a line work that might that might have been hard to do as a painter at the schedule that he had to do these out. You know you know.
01:25:26.71
Steven Bagatourian
Right? Yes to totally and I I think the only one I'm seeing now looking at them again that siroko might have done by himself is the covered issue number 6 issue number 6 is credited like I think only to siroko I just see his name signed on it.
01:25:44.80
cbderrick
Right? right? right.
01:25:46.47
Steven Bagatourian
And it's another beautiful cover. Another beautiful cover but I but I think you're right having carry Austin ink those early ones probably gave them a little extra pop.
01:25:53.10
cbderrick
Yeah, but you know, but but but but you wont talk about issue 4 and in issue four is this is the one where you've been saying earlier where just a character. What's his name Scott who gets killed because he because he leaves the um because there's a lieutenant there guy named lieutenant.
01:26:05.74
Steven Bagatourian
Oh yeah, yeah.
01:26:12.54
cbderrick
Ah, toy montockk who who is sort of similar toerragar. Turns off, he's got ah, he's got these ethics as a hero or or not if's 10 here. He's es as he's like he's like 1 of the squad. He's lieutenant so he's got.
01:26:19.60
Steven Bagatourian
Yes.
01:26:30.19
cbderrick
Some command of and he's got respect of the troops but he's always in there with them but he but this issue he gets left on the battlefield he gets shot. They're trying to do some take some Island he gets shot and he gets left on the battlefield and and and he's kind of hallucinating because of the the wounds he has. And his hallucinations take take you back to his backstorying and it and and it's such a smart cool I mean I mean this is the lost episode if there if if this is the loss of episode if the if there ever was one you know because it's because it and.
01:26:50.40
Steven Bagatourian
Yes, yeah, this was so clever. Yeah, it really is right? Yes, that's what I'm saying you're right? Oh my God It totally is yes.
01:27:07.47
cbderrick
What's really cool about this. But I think what I think I love about this is is that the transitions from the the current happening to his to his past like that first 1 right? where he's been shot and it's like there's you know and he's like stumbling up to his head. That's it. It's like and it's was one of these cool panels where just like 3
01:27:25.00
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah.
01:27:27.32
cbderrick
There's 3 images. There's 3 distinct images going on at once but there's no panel break on. It's just like and this is a white background out when it's like him. It's it's this really kind of fucking amazing composition and it brings you into his past in a way that you're like oh this is really cool and he's like and he and.
01:27:32.56
Steven Bagatourian
Um, yeah, it really is oh it's gorgeous, Gorgeous composition.
01:27:45.77
cbderrick
And he's repeating something in his head about stay awake Stay awake stay awake and though that line or something like that can remember exactly resist. Oh yeah, like it's's it's what brings him back to memory with his dad and you realize that he's from the aristocracy but his dad also served in Thewegian too.
01:27:50.13
Steven Bagatourian
Yet.
01:27:55.53
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah.
01:28:04.85
cbderrick
This dad's like I want you to spend 5 years and lead just like I did so so you recognize the value of money and what's really cool about this character is and it's sort of is it Prince who's the current prince and you is it is it prince yes prince Andrew right is the guy not Prince Andrew ah
01:28:05.14
Steven Bagatourian
What? um. Yes.
01:28:23.00
Steven Bagatourian
I Mind my not my knowledge of the of the row family is very minimal.
01:28:23.26
cbderrick
Um I don't like I I know like like like the one who's bald and the one is the firstborn son of Diana's son right? He actually served in Afghanistan you know as part of the british thing. What's interesting about this about him might difficult they but but but but toy montawk.
01:28:32.55
Steven Bagatourian
M.
01:28:42.57
cbderrick
Or Mantra whatever his name is he doesn't behave like a rich kid. You know I mean because look look in in almost every other version of there's a rich kid who's a hangout with the with with like like with the scrubs of humanity. He's the bitch.
01:28:45.83
Steven Bagatourian
No.
01:28:56.60
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah.
01:29:00.11
cbderrick
Who gets who gets treated like an asshole by because once say no, he's rich. They you know you know I'm saying like like like he's He's not it. This is great writing it's like he has somehow he's won the the respect of all his troops.
01:29:03.70
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:29:14.14
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah.
01:29:16.31
cbderrick
And again because missing was like with Sergay but again, it's kind of like he's a lot like Tom makes' character and some private Ryan because part of part of his character is he's never told anybody what he what his background is in private ryanot. But there's that pool. What do you do? what you do because he because because because he he doesn't reveal what is he's a teacher.
01:29:25.81
Steven Bagatourian
Write.
01:29:34.84
cbderrick
But I think it's like in this, it's like well I mean it's it's I'll explain what he's done with firstgiving and he's obviously got to a ah high post So you know he's it's he's he's his dad has raised him right in terms of his ethics and his and his in his moral compass.
01:29:45.88
Steven Bagatourian
He's competent. Yes.
01:29:52.68
cbderrick
But he wants him to like test his metal before he gets the money.
01:29:53.84
Steven Bagatourian
Exactly his dad and his dad says to him in this flashback where they're riding like Alien horses as like you know, rich, rich members of of the Alien Aristocracy. Do they're riding these Alien horses and dad says. Ah you know first? Um, before you can do all this other shit you want to do. First you need to experience Danger Adventure round out your sheltered upbringing. Besides if the legion was good enough for your father. It'll be good enough for you. Young man patriotic service is a noble and respected calling among the aristocracy and life life's a sham without some without some values. Outside the simple satisfaction of your own ego son and so you see like yeah Tori Montroch His his father is no Joke. He's a rich guy who's toughest nails wants his kid to not be. You know some some lollygagging rich kid hanging around doing nothing.
01:30:45.80
cbderrick
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, who.
01:30:47.61
Steven Bagatourian
He wants this kid like really to really grow up and and I gotta say that the in that flashback like going into that Chris like that that moment you mentioned where where tori gets shot I gotta say that this is incredibly good use of thought balloons and thought balloons you know of course are somewhat archaic and considered passe in this ah modern world of comics today. But. I gotta say these thought balloons man like what? Ah what a clever and really haunting way to depict the thoughts of someone who's just been shot in battle because his thoughts are woa Vic Vic Vic Vic like the alien like lasers like these little sound effects Vic Vic the lasers hit him. They pierce his armor. And suddenly his thought balloon says. Ah it can't it can't be happening to me. No, it's the others. It's the others who bleed who die hear hear running I hear I hear them racing but just having those thoughts. Like no it can't be me. It can't be me. It's the others who die like wait. No what the fuck's happening like that felt so believable to me because like you know we all, we. All think that we all think we're immortal right? Like we all think you know like everyone else gets fucked up. You know it's not gonna happen to me and it's like and like anytime you get really injured in real life like that.
01:31:49.91
cbderrick
Well and with and was with for sure.
01:32:02.40
Steven Bagatourian
That's the kind of thought I feel like people have it's believable. You're like oh fuck did I Just you know what.
01:32:04.22
cbderrick
Oh be, That's I I'm telling you the of I fucking Zealins is off the chart Good writer. What's cool is is that you see the other leads cause at this point they're like retreating right? you know and he gets shot during the retreat.
01:32:16.34
Steven Bagatourian
Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:32:20.24
cbderrick
Those other le are I mean they're running away into the horizon in this unknown white panel and they're like getting smaller or smaller and that's the sound of them running which sounds like the horses I mean that that's I mean like yeah you know yeah that I'm saying like the transition that he that they do and like the arts.
01:32:28.76
Steven Bagatourian
Um, oh the horses and that's the horses. That's the transition to the horses right? So that's brilliant. So so smart.
01:32:38.99
cbderrick
Like it's such a brilliant way that he does this. You know throughout this throughout this episode. There's these flashbacks back and forth back and forth with what's happening to him now you know and and and what's going on with him. Um I mean is that moment we send of escape from that little like.
01:32:47.52
Steven Bagatourian
Yes.
01:32:55.62
cbderrick
He's he's down like the dirt somewhere and he's trying to kick out of that hole and he jumps up and he flashes back to like when he's like playing playing some sort of basketball type of game and it's like I mean it's and that's the roar that's like and it it's get this. It's It's so smarts and if it and it's like.
01:32:58.84
Steven Bagatourian
Um, oh yeah, right? The yeah, the transitions are great. The transitions are so good.
01:33:13.66
cbderrick
And it's an interesting thing that people do if you know about like previsualization you know was a lot of times like ah you take a moment for that. You've doesn't been successful and played it in your head to do something like that again to oh I don't decided do so to do this and it's like that's what he did here to escape this thing. It's such a smart. Like use like you like again, you said about the what's believable humanity is how he's written this episode and it's so fucking. Cool. It's so fucking. Cool.
01:33:36.72
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, and it's really It's so cool and it's so fucking upsetting and and haunting for real like when when Tori Montrock finally hits the dirt and he passes out and it's like boom he goes down in the mud. The final thought balloon. It's all run together as 1 word. And he just has his last thought before he's out is he thinks oh my god I'm dead and that's it and then he's gone and he's out and then he's hallucinating you know when we see him next but it's also believable and then even the character of I think it's scobb here who ultimately is going to get killed who sees.
01:34:00.66
cbderrick
Yeah.
01:34:14.57
Steven Bagatourian
Tori Montroch dead in front of him and then s scobbs thought belins are he he bad wounded because scob's like a bird a bird alien who speaks in the kind of like inverted speak and he says he bad wounded. but but I I all alone enemy enemy soon scout battlefield find me. Legion prisoners is of no value. They kill me except maybe if I have officers identification enemy not kill me then I cannot save both lieutenant and self and he near dead I take his id plate and gloves. And in that one page scobb signs his own death warrant with his with his fellow legionariesires and without even knowing he's doing it and but as a reader I think you're right that Zellyns is so brilliant as a writer Chris because as a reader reading that like I know that's the wrong thing to do as a soldier in the middle of a battlefield etc. But at the same point.
01:34:51.97
cbderrick
Completely. But.
01:35:09.90
Steven Bagatourian
Hearing s scobb's thoughts like I can understand it also because like SScop's thinking this dude's gonna be dead in a second and like what's what's the point. Both of us being dead. Let me take his shit so they don't kill me like I I get the thought process.
01:35:11.41
cbderrick
But see what.
01:35:18.21
cbderrick
Well well, we'll see it's it's I mean look this is again because look this guy this I love about this. This comic is people make these choices that are ultimately selfest choices like in the first episode that one guy. Who like who was the first time he was his first time out on league and like he went ran off and they thought he had deserted and stuff like that and and later on that guy named Dige like he's like this like this tank type of he's like he's like a thick short. He's kind of like puck from alpha fight type of character and he wants to be able to move.
01:35:49.10
Steven Bagatourian
Um.
01:35:52.82
cbderrick
Faster so he's taken so he's taken something that's kind of like amphetamines a show like that and it's like they make these decisions that are really human decisions because look this I mean at this point in the story. We know they've signaled retreats and and Scott is left here alone.
01:36:11.14
Steven Bagatourian
And yeah, he got fucked.
01:36:11.25
cbderrick
So He's basically been abandoned by everyone else and he's like what do I do This guy's dead if I if I try to carry him then we'll both get killed. They'll just shoot us up because because you know how they're like don't see someone who's wearing the the the officer stuff and shoot them or they'll save them cause you you worth something. So He makes a decision that that that is a super cowardly fucked decision from us outside. But like you said the default balloons allow us to you know to sympathize with him and that's a thing too a lot like if you didn't have thought balloons.
01:36:32.69
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah.
01:36:39.82
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah.
01:36:49.70
cbderrick
And you did this as captions you know, like on this like caption boxes on the side. The way they do now well and then the difference is then the writer has to write that in third person and say what s scobb is thinking you know because we're never gonna get in his head because um, because usually in those.
01:36:50.79
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, yeah.
01:37:05.64
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah.
01:37:07.71
cbderrick
And let'ss look at Sin City where you know all the captions are so are someone's internal thoughts. You know it's like I feel that this page wouldn't work if you didn't have thought on this because you could.
01:37:17.67
Steven Bagatourian
You're right? Yeah, you're right? That's actually that's such a brilliant point. You're such a brilliant point dude because I hadn't really thought about that. So specifically till you just said it. But like the word balloon gives you the opportunity to kind of give like a mini voiceover to each character right? But you can't do that as a storyteller with just captions or if you do it's.
01:37:28.17
cbderrick
Um, yeah.
01:37:34.99
Steven Bagatourian
It's gonna be more likely to be awkward and unwieldy because what are you gonna do. You're gonna give 9 different characters fucking voiceover captions like that's gonna be hard to parse whereas a thought balloon is so much more elegant and you can just because you can just do a couple of thoughts a couple thoughts and that's it or whatever and like a situation like this like.
01:37:44.29
cbderrick
Um, yeah.
01:37:51.65
Steven Bagatourian
Bob's not narrating the story. He doesn't need to narrate any other scenes we just needed to know what he was thinking at this exact moment. So.
01:37:55.67
cbderrick
Right? I mean and also like you said like but like when Tory's dying or he's been shot those balloons in his head about this can happen to me. You know that again if you put that in captions.
01:38:04.34
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, like.
01:38:10.74
cbderrick
If he's narrating it So you think that this is ah it's like it's part of what happens in movies too where we like we like like we evolve with what the start with the conventions are and certain things that that got overuseed people don't want to use anymore. But it's like those are effective tools if you know how to use it the right way because the thing the thing is.
01:38:25.81
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah.
01:38:29.63
cbderrick
If you were to give captions to Tory Maok in this then you can't really jump around to the other scenes where he's not in them and then use captions because its like wait a minute the devices would like I or you jumping between first person and third person throughout the thing and it's like you. There's a device that you can use doppaloon.
01:38:36.45
Steven Bagatourian
Right.
01:38:49.62
cbderrick
Which would solve the problem of letting you know how scared he is be because because you can see how this would be if it was I mean that one page that like that transition page on the previous page. You couldn't do that that well with with it with any of the form but thought below number one you know.
01:38:50.20
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, so.
01:39:05.63
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, you write.
01:39:09.80
cbderrick
But yeah I mean but see now now what's cool in this issue too was that guy named Zerro who's like the he's like a kangaroo esque type of character I guess you know who like who reminds me of one of these guys who's he's like like he he's an old dog soldier.
01:39:17.47
Steven Bagatourian
Um, right right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:39:27.16
cbderrick
Who's always got a story for for every little a remember to to this happened to me or y'all weren't there but I was always some live I mean again, if always someone you know who's like that who's always refercing some old shit from their life to check mother I wasn't around when you to this you know and it's like but but but every remind people that I know who' always got a story about their life.
01:39:34.33
Steven Bagatourian
Um, yeah.
01:39:45.52
cbderrick
You know and he's not trying to be like egotistical which is why he's kind of endearing with telling a story but you know that everyone but but he's a guy who always got a story and that gets a little like ah this it's a little grating and and he writes it in a way that people know that he gets grading. And they shut him up at the right moment where he's Ohka. You run you know? Ah, you've talked too much right now which is really fucking awesome and then it rolls out the rest of the story with and he goes back and has this Ah, it's like toy montock wakes up this sort of like crater and again he's having um, flashbacks to when he was. I Mean he's he's and this actually is in a flatboard. This is like a weird kind of like um imagination like vision like like he goes to meet his dad you know and and he's like dad like you Fucking. He kills his Dad. He shoots his dad in the dream because he's like.
01:40:27.70
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, yeah, he's like hallucinating. Yeah yes.
01:40:38.63
cbderrick
You send me here to die like I thought I was gonna come back and be cool and get my money but now I'm not you know and it's like a really cool fucking little. It's a really cool like ah hallucination more than anything you know? where's the other ones like our actual flashbacks. Um.
01:40:48.22
Steven Bagatourian
For you.
01:40:55.11
cbderrick
Yeah I mean he shouldn' have survived and the guy sky like escapes you know and then and.
01:40:56.62
Steven Bagatourian
it's it's it's an amazing amazing issue. It's really an amazing kind of like self-contained issue. It's like the first issue that really focused on one character to this extent and to me it it really stood out for that reason I was like whoa shit and you know this was like oh my god like.
01:41:06.43
cbderrick
Yeah.
01:41:14.26
Steven Bagatourian
We've kind of spent so much time with all of them that it felt wild to just have like a solo kind of Tory Story flashback it felt very kind of you know, kind of compelling in ah in a different way like they really switched up the style with issue 4 and then you get another solo story in the backup of that. Ah, the kangaroo. Alien creature you were mentioning Xero where we find out about his backstory which is actually quite fascinating and really surprising where Xero came from in his own history and it's ah it's a really you know super jam-packed like little 7 page. Whatever it is short story where you find out a lot about this guy's history and. He was you know he was a major political leader himself at one point on his planet. He was a he was a general. Yeah, he was a general and he was like I mean involved in some crazy shit and you're like oh my god this guy lived quite a life before he got to the legion.
01:41:55.88
cbderrick
Um, yeah I All that's like I mean.
01:42:06.75
cbderrick
What which is cool because again, it's like this is why I love it because it's like all these people Their're backstories. They're not like you would think for lesion. These guys are all Runaways or fuckups or whatever it is but it's like no I mean he did. He is a fuck about degrees of what he did but he had this big life.
01:42:18.46
Steven Bagatourian
Oh not at all.
01:42:25.94
cbderrick
I mean he's a general and all this kind of stuff and it's like oh and then he made him and and oh you said he got soft by being in a position of power or authority too long and he wanted to be back and be on the ground and because because that's where the action was you know I mean was cool, but this is is again your boy Tory. He is another hallucination where he meets the woman that he was in love with and he like and she is and he looks all he's decayed and stuff and she's like I can't I can't be down with you. You know and then she dies either. He kills her she just dies and he.
01:42:45.99
Steven Bagatourian
Oh right? yeah.
01:43:01.50
cbderrick
Like by some creature that's shooting him. There's some demon that is again, it's his own demon is's getting after him. Not really like a demon yet really, but it's really again, it's the transition is he's stuck in at that beach where some creature on the planet is trying to eat him.
01:43:17.61
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah.
01:43:19.56
cbderrick
So the transitions between his hallucinations flashbacks to it was happening in like in his actual spacetime is so smart so fucking genius and then you know and that next page is when Xerod he comes across with skabb.
01:43:28.10
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah.
01:43:36.20
cbderrick
You know and the thing is is that that xerrod sees Xero is the one who recognizes the dude is stolen his. Ah ah you know like his his his identity papers and stuff like that. So he's the one who kind of squeals on him. Um, but they but they save him.
01:43:45.36
Steven Bagatourian
Oh yes.
01:43:53.77
cbderrick
Then he has another little flashback and I can't say here's again I I don't know if this is see I can't tell if this next thing is is like an hallucination or or is action. Oh no, it's elucation. Yes, he's his look. He's survived death.
01:44:11.59
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah.
01:44:11.83
cbderrick
Back to see his parents tells us is dad in the woman he loves look This is this actually like has made you know like a man out of me doing this and then he wakes up in the hospitals. The whatever the mash thing and he's being like you know, um you know he's being cared for and and but.
01:44:28.40
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah, it's a very abrupt. It's an abrupt ending all of a sudden and he just says skaabbb is that you safe now I remember um you know, ah like what but what happened then who found you you say you save you is save me lieutenant. Thank you? But what happened then who found me.
01:44:30.86
cbderrick
But it's over here.
01:44:47.15
Steven Bagatourian
And then suddenly we just get attention attention Legionai Zeroo report to Keauga headquarters immediately and then Bam I guess that's supposed to be the transition into the flashback to xerod.
01:44:56.67
cbderrick
Well well do what? this isn't a flashxback this thing right here is is is he serving time like the first part of this is he's serving time. It's like that this is the stockade right.
01:45:05.10
Steven Bagatourian
All right. M your yes, Okay, you're right? you right? So it goes into the Flash pack a couple pages and you're right? You're right? So This is where he's he's in prison and being punished.
01:45:13.30
cbderrick
For but you know, but you know because Xerro like he broke orders to go save Tory we you right? Yeah easy. Yeah, this was crazy. He's being punished for saving a legionaire but he broke the but he broke the this is why there's such a ah such a. This is why it's such a great book because that's for me. What really happened you know, um.
01:45:34.77
Steven Bagatourian
Oh yeah, yeah, yes, and it's like the sorry the saragar thing you mentioned earlier where he put himself before the court martial board because he also had like broken the rules to protect his men but still, it's like you get punished for that or in his case in his case, he didn't.
01:45:47.64
cbderrick
Yeah I mean what he didn't Well Yeah, yeah, yeah, cause they thought he was taking overboard but this is the thing that lets you know ah like this part of the world building. You know this iss part of like hey like is is giving you an understanding of how the legion code works.
01:45:57.15
Steven Bagatourian
Yeah.
01:46:05.96
cbderrick
Without having to do it without having to like explain it. You know like you just go you see it. But yeah I mean but yeah, but but he goes back and like that do that he rescued me that the other dude that he was goingnna rescue. There was this boy that he couldn't rescue and he and and he had to leave him to die. You know like that's what's cool too that he did exactly what Scott did.
01:46:20.73
Steven Bagatourian
Yep. Event.
01:46:25.61
cbderrick
He left somebody didn't die and I mean and and he couldn't take it you know and he quits and that's why he quit and that's why he's now in the legion. Um, yeah, but I was the next issue issue 5 is the one that has the the reason why issue 5 is of course because.
01:46:40.63
Steven Bagatourian
Oh yeah, yeah, actually we should unfortunately we should take our intermission here before we ah, we do issue 5 yeah because we got ah we got to bounce for the moment but we will be back to talk about five six and the stroman issues.
01:46:44.40
cbderrick
Because Okay, oh right right? I right? right? right? Yes, oh all, right? So yeah.
01:46:55.48
cbderrick
The stroman issues all right everyone. So ah so stay tuned for just you know I think to be like our word from our sponsor and then we'll be back with the rest of with the rest of Alien the region. Um all right? Everyone talks What? Ah so so so we see on the flipside.
01:46:58.62
Steven Bagatourian
Yes.
01:47:02.96
Steven Bagatourian
Um, ah yes, yes, this is yeah this has been fun. This is an amazing book I'm excited to talk about it more.
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