00:00.00

cbderrick

Okay, and we're back from break to get back with our Alien legion. Um, so whip. So what do we live? Oh yes, we left love talking about ah ah issue called operation Nerve Center and had another fascinating issue.

00:05.87

Steven Bagatourian

Yes, indeed.

00:13.52

Steven Bagatourian

Yes, yes.

00:19.99

cbderrick

Because and I think we talk about photograph break i't know if we did if we didn't we just we're go you now. The character bird is your never 6 the character. Yeah, the the character dirge he starts taking these performance enhancements drugs.

00:24.24

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, issue number issue number 6 for everyone following along at home.

00:36.88

cbderrick

Because he's like he's known as the tank and he like feels like he can't move as quick as everyone else and he's like taking these drugs and it's just kind of weird because it's like this is happening at a time in our own culture where I think steroids is kind of becoming a thing you know.

00:52.91

Steven Bagatourian

Of that.

00:55.48

cbderrick

I mean it probably was a thing maybe in the I mean the 70 s but it really becoming ah like a thing in the in the major me like there was some of these football players stuff like that were showing up with and things like that interestingly has it here in the comic and when Duris takes it. They're doing some little like operation out in like some spacewalk. Almost gets people killed and shit I mean it's just like it's wild like what they do to keep the story although it's a future story to keep it relevant for what's going on at the time and still now about these performance. Enhancers drugs. Um, it's interesting because. What I think is so cool about this comic and it's it's more so with some these other the issues coming up. We've talked about the the thought balloons and stuff like that. The thing I realized that the thought balloons do is that. It's everybody's kind of fears. You know like it talks about their sense of self-doubt about whatever's happening. What's going on internally for them like oh my fucking god like I can't I can't deal with x.

01:53.50

Steven Bagatourian

Yes.

02:07.53

cbderrick

Ah, can't deal with why I mean I think of the next issue that the like the first one that Chris Warner does there's that you know, um ahkk a musad some people like die in his arms a few times you know a couple of people get shot and they die they bleed out in his arms and he's 1 thing where he. The but is still on his armor and he's like trippping out and he's like having these thoughts about like it's just too lonely for me I thought I could find like a assistive like of of comrarie here in the legion but all the people I get close to get killed and I'm just like this and so with dirt here. It's like it's it's getting into his mindset about like.

02:32.93

Steven Bagatourian

Right.

02:38.74

Steven Bagatourian

Right? so.

02:46.30

cbderrick

Why I feel inadequate as part of the units and it's interesting because it's like he knows what his lane is in the unit but he's not comfortable with it and he wants to take the drugs to get into into a different you know, ah you know like to. I Don't know like to be more to do more to be more than what he's actually are people already like respect him for where he is but it's not good enough for him and that and it's all kind of discussed within his the thought balloons and with with everybody that I mean I I think is different and now I think about this.

03:04.26

Steven Bagatourian

Yes.

03:20.10

cbderrick

I can't remember a lot of what thought balloon stuff was in in older comics of this of this era in the era before the 70 s but I don't think it was so much like you know like psychosis going on and these.

03:34.27

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, well you make an it totally you make an interesting point because like thought balloons were just so ubiquitous in superhero comics right? forever like we're used to like Spiderman or whoever just having these like thoughts to themselves. But I think.

03:36.91

cbderrick

And and then the people being so neurotic.

03:51.98

Steven Bagatourian

An Alien legion like what you're saying is really true. It's It's a unique use of thought balloons because it's It's a war story you know and like these are soldiers in this insane crucible of fucking battle everywhere where people are dying all around them and like we talked about with like.

03:57.40

cbderrick

Yeah.

04:08.94

Steven Bagatourian

The thoughts of like tori montrock a couple issues ago too where he gets shot and he thinks he's dying and he has those really Staccato bursts of like oh my God not me not me holy shit. No like only other people I didn't fucking know I was going to die, not me like they're all very realistic just simple thoughts but also. Like you're saying thoughts of fear and neurosis and panic and like when you're in a theater of war like that's the place where your your mind is going to go fucking insane because it could not be a more stressful situation for you and you don't want to show weakness right? so.

04:41.45

cbderrick

Right? And yeah, yeah.

04:44.13

Steven Bagatourian

And in this situation like thought balloons become way more critical than your average. Yeah fucking superhero punch you know punch up story.

04:49.11

cbderrick

For sure and I think what's interesting too is that you know it's something that like like um, we used to talk about in the writers room on the show is that you you always got to put a character like with somebody else so they can have someone to talk to? yeah.

05:05.85

Steven Bagatourian

Yes.

05:08.18

cbderrick

Kind of hard to do ah a movie or Tv show where character is alone because because you didn't get to talk to anybody about what his feeling John or stuff like that. Yeah yeah, but but in this they're talking to themselves in a thought balloon.

05:14.62

Steven Bagatourian

And it's stupid when characters talk to themselves in general. Yeah, right right.

05:24.45

cbderrick

But but it's but it's done in a way that I mean to degree like sometimes it's almost. It's almost like confessional like what they would say to a therapist you know like which is just fascinating kind of writing again because like you think back about like these war movies like think about like platoon or like apocalypse now.

05:30.75

Steven Bagatourian

Um, oh yeah, totally Yes, yeah.

05:43.94

cbderrick

And it's like you don't get into the people's like I mean like you and it's usually 1 person's like what's cool is is that like in a movie like this, you're in like 1 person's poov I can platoon. You're really only in Charlie Sheen's pov. He's got the voiceover. But in this the thought balloon gives everybody their own sense of voiceover to a degree to to give them a sense of what's going on and and and and and how they're like how they're just like trying to like like parse the situation around them and their own performance because I think was interesting too about this is and this this issue.

06:07.47

Steven Bagatourian

Yep.

06:22.82

cbderrick

Later on and there's the ones and with um with the one the ones that ah the that le stroman is doing with with Xerrod it's like you know, like like but he's too old and they they think he's too old you know and there's all this sense of like oh my god like you know what I can't perform right.

06:41.80

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

06:41.81

cbderrick

Du the unit's gonna laugh at me I'm gonna get disgraced. There's this. There's always this sense of like a feeling of like every character is on the edge of falling out of favor with the whole group or we stay feel. They're gonna fallw at a favor with the whole group I think it's kind of fascinating that that's.

06:56.67

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

07:01.52

cbderrick

What you get into like inside wasos because I mean I don't think there's like you know I've not been to war so I don't know what it's like but I'm sure that everyone who's with you like is really really tight with you but that sense of like they're not going to accept me I don't think that. That works the same way if you're like the marines in like Afghanistan like everyone has to accept you you know unless youre like fucking up you know, but at that point they're not gonna go out on the tour with you because because everyone everyone's gonna know you're fucking up but there's this There's always this this sense of that that I think is such an interesting thing to do and then they still kind of perform. At like a top level. You know like like it's this interesting dichotomy of like what they're able to do and what they're like going through and and they kind of like and and they give themselves like pep talks and shit like that. It's really fascinating how he does that in the like the story you know.

07:53.20

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, you know hearing you talk about it and just considering it looking through the book Again, it is really a cool thing about this book that all the characters feel inadequate you know and they're all like ostensibly tough guys. You know and like.

08:04.11

cbderrick

Yeah, yeah.

08:10.89

Steven Bagatourian

In the stroman issues we get into finally a woman Joins you know Nomad Squadron or whatever but you know for the most part in these early issues. The siroko issues these are all like your archetypes of like militaristic tough guys and yet through the thought balloons. We realize that they're all like.

08:14.42

cbderrick

Right? but.

08:29.80

Steven Bagatourian

Big fucking messes inside and they're all freaking out over a lifetime of Traumas and failures and everything that they've gone through to wind up here in the Alien legion and none of them deep down feel like they're really good enough. They've all kind of got imposter syndrome and it does. Seem like these thought balloons are are just the perfect devices constantly to be giving us those various voiceovers and and yeah man you mentioned that point last time we talked about this about getting the multiple points of view because of the way that this is all structured and I thought that was a really great point because I hadn't thought about it so directly till you said it. But I was considering that now reading the stroman issues that we read for this part and like all these little self-contained stories where we're kind of in the minds of a different soldier each time like it's really just such expansive storytelling here. The cast is so huge that like I feel like this Alien legion. Rabbit hole. It just feels like you're falling deeper and deeper down into this world with this first year or so of stories and the world's not getting smaller. It's not like you're kind of getting your arms around it. It's getting bigger.

09:35.41

cbderrick

You know, getting bigger. It's just getting it's getting It's getting yeah it's wild it's wild I mean yeah so this issue to this last issue that the Frank Suroco did

09:38.68

Steven Bagatourian

It's getting bigger like more characters more characters and like people are dying fucking aliens dying everywhere.

09:53.77

cbderrick

You know they? um you know is it's their first kind of real real encounter with the ah herculeon. You know like you know, like like like soldiers their empire you know like they finally fight them in like a ship toship battle and some again. You know we said this last time like how dope of an artist like shroco is just this framing his figure drawing the action that he does. It's the depth of field of how how he's putting in characters. You know in terms of like like the way he stages them is is is it's a love of brilliance.

10:17.74

Steven Bagatourian

Yup.

10:30.90

cbderrick

For a book like this it needs it. It really needs like that that level of like I don't want to say care but just kind of like it's understanding of of what you got to be what has to be sown and why.

10:39.15

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah, like like brilliant brilliant just like brilliant composition right? because it's so many characters you have to have someone who's like a brilliant Draftsman or else your eye just will get completely lost.

10:51.34

cbderrick

Yeah, um, it's crazy. It's crazy. You know and in this issue you know it's it's all about they're trying to like deal with that like ah so so this issue picks up for the information of the first issue with that that stolen like that data core. They got from in the on the mind planet in the first two issues and it's finally coming back. You know like filter into the rest of the story. You know, um, it's so interesting and then that one dinner is that and then sergarerragar he does he does something where he like ah he gets his boss kind of like. Demoted or some shit like that you know which is kind of cool and and that guy is like he's leaving and he's I guess he's trying to like I guess he's trying to go a wall and he gets ah, ah you know he tries to get arrested and um and he tries to leave. But. What happens is he goes to serragar's place and I think we talked about this before but I'll just recap anyway, but he goes to sergar's place and he um, you know and there's a big confrontation you know and sergar beats a shadowta this guy and he's just kind of like I mean it just shows. There's always this kind of like. Interesting level of like the like the politics and stuff always kind of steps out a norm where people are like they like there's always a level of like hierarchy that use and use and use and use and use and then someone was like you know what fuck that I'm not to take um, um, ah I'm out to get violent on you.

12:23.70

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

12:24.12

cbderrick

For a second you know and it's pretty crazy with you know, like with what happens you know, um and then it just ends you know with what you know and so and Sarah Gar he's not really, you know it's all about you know like he thought there's gonna be a problem with that data corps and his and his his suit commanding officer didn't you know? and again, it's like. The battle with sergar when he's fighting this guy he uses the tail and the tail spikes and all this kind of shit it just kind of shows you like you know like the level of the restraint he constantly has as a commanding officer you know like he like you almost never see him go crazy like he beast the shit out of this guy with.

12:59.79

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, he really does. Yeah.

13:02.65

cbderrick

£4 at off and just for just like breaking his jog boom boom boom boom boom and it's like oh my god then he kind of realizes what he's doing but you know it's like she's interesting character because he keeps a lid on his id so much.

13:18.50

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah.

13:20.54

cbderrick

Oh and he's and he's tries to be so logical and it's like this episode or the episode but this issue and the one later on with um the thing with his sister comes back. You know it's like a cool issue. It's like when his real like like also that he's trying to keep pit up like explodes. And and it and you know, um, um, and and he goes off the reservation. You know what a different way than everybody else. That's you these I mean I mean these other people kind of know like the I Whatever the enlisted men will say you know because he's listed too. But you know he's I Guess he's a he's still like an officer but the the enlisted men. No. There's always a moment of if they go with the reservation they're like they're thinking about the consequences you know, andergar does thing with the consequences until he's done his thing you know because like these people have oh you know, darling. But oh you know like you know I should flee or or like.

14:02.94

Steven Bagatourian

Yes.

14:15.39

cbderrick

Should dessert or whatever it is this sense of like in the moment when they're getting shot with lasers. They're like oh my god like you know I need to break the rules and and get out of here. But then they tell him we don't what's most of the time they don't but he but he like is always saying stick with the plan stick with the plan stick to the plan until so the hitip confronts him like personally. But but the thing is it's an interesting way to do his character. You know it's really cool. Um less. Yeah, so that's the last Frank soroco issue the next issue. The next is.

14:38.40

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, it's very realistic too. Yeah I think wait before you before you jump on from that issue Chris just 1 final thing I want to call out is ah will wil portassio contributing some inks on that. Issue number 6 of alien legion ah pre image comics. Ah perhaps pre x-men even ah, but Wills Pertassia of course would ah go on to kind of sort of be 1 of the founders of image comics and launch wetworks later. And I got to say there's some really beautiful pages of him inking over Frank Siroko here in issue 6 So I just wanted to call that out because ah, there's a lot of people involved with alien legion here even just for an issue or 2 who go on to do rather significant things.

15:27.50

cbderrick

Yes, some great things. Great great things. So the next few issues are are it's I'll sum these up kind of quicker so exhibit strum and stuff. But it's it's also that's penciled by Chris Warner and it's interesting to see. His work like his work is not bad but he's clearly not the same artist as siroko like terms of just like compositions and everything like that and and the storytelling is a little different. Um, ah, he's very solid. It's pretty.

15:47.38

Steven Bagatourian

Who.

15:53.56

Steven Bagatourian

No no warner solid though. Warner's very solid. He's very solid. He's a very very strong, very strong artist. Yeah yeah.

16:04.64

cbderrick

He's very Vic I'm not taking anything remembers at all, but it just what is it it but the book feels different in that if I'm what's his name I think like you know, um alllan um yeah zeances I feel like he kind of wrote story. That's what I think is interesting about him right.

16:15.78

Steven Bagatourian

Zealant.

16:24.23

cbderrick

This issue didn was a stroman he's he's changing the storytelling to kind of fit what the artist can do I feel like he's doing it.

16:33.68

Steven Bagatourian

That's that's fantastic. That's a really really smart thing for a writer to do and you know I think the the great comic writers The greats do that.

16:36.81

cbderrick

Yeah, because it's yeah, could you guys everything because the thing about because he does I mean think about this this the with Chris Warner which I think storyline wise interesting is this something I was thinking about today i' want to bring up to you but it's like um. We begin to see the rise of the character Jugger Grimrod and what I think is interesting about his character is his character is you see my other and so and other issues early on. He's just kind of a side character.

16:55.25

Steven Bagatourian

Yes, we certainly do. We got some big stuff coming up.

17:12.64

cbderrick

But he reminds but this this this he's coming out this is coming out at the rise of when the punisher becomes like a stand-one character and the rise when a wolverine is becoming a standalone character and I feel like it's like this is the I Louis's version of that.

17:30.19

Steven Bagatourian

Yes.

17:30.71

cbderrick

Kind of white character who's like fuck the rules. He's so much of a lone wolf. He has this really kind of complicated backstory and I feel like he represents the kind of like this this would be controversial statements be very controversial statement here resists the kind of like Angston anger. Was afflicting young white males at this time which then kind of like because I really think that's why characters like Deadpool and and and and wolverine and punisher and also juy grimrod they are all the same kind of archetype. You know I mean and jugger kind of talks a lot the way like.

18:05.00

Steven Bagatourian

Move.

18:10.36

cbderrick

It's an exaggerated form of the way that wolverine talks like this kind of like very choppy English with these kind of like contractions all over the place and everything but but he's a similar type a character where he's like I can do what I want I know what else is the rules I'm um I'm not gonna not helping me at all anyway and let me I'm out for self.

18:21.37

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah.

18:29.31

cbderrick

Except I don't need to be but ah, it's ah just I feel like he just falls in them mold and all those characters all came out like at the same time. They'd all been around for a while he's like you know like um overine and and ah punisher but they took they took prominence. In the comma book culture and I think it's because at the time my com bookss were appealing to those type of kids like those type of like you know like what's his name. Um Eric Harris of fucking dylanleveold who became famous of fucking. Ah ah the commaines shooting like I feel like.

19:00.50

Steven Bagatourian

Like the kind the Column Columbine kids. Yeah.

19:05.44

cbderrick

Ah, like like these characters are speaking to the sense of social impotence that they are beginning to feel that that becomes a big thing in the culture I feel and I think but I think but but and and that's how drug or grimmad is is usually because this Chris Water Story. It's like its long story. Basically like a focus on him and what he's doing. They're stuck on this planet. They've been shot down and and ah and there's like the there's some creature on the planet that's trying to eat them and then there's like and there's some arch Killan that are arch Killons whatever are are after them and and there's like this.

19:36.32

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah.

19:40.91

cbderrick

Magistrate character who's like who knows Jugger and this would be fun about his back. So oh he's a former assassin you know and you're like what and he been in jail I mean it's like like you get this back. The backstory comes out in interesting ways like the guy who sentenced him.

19:45.50

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yes, um.

19:58.74

cbderrick

To like life in prison or I don't know 15 years in in hard labor or isolation. Whatever it was. He's now to protect this guy I'm just like that's such a cool story point. It's like because it reveals who he is and it makes him have to be like I can't behave or do I want to. But. It's like this guy like and this guy doesn't remember him but he's like who but but they recognize each other slightly and they and you slowly begin to come together where drug is like oh he's the guy who put me who put me away the guy who put me away knows that I should be in jail and and that the fact I'd be convicted of convicted of a crime means. I can't be in the awayan region. So. There's this whole sense of like what's gonna happen. Is he gonna get found out is he not gonna get found out. Is he gonna get you know, question and stuff like that you know and they're on this planet that has this weird kind of like creature that can do some like.

20:33.98

Steven Bagatourian

Right.

20:51.20

cbderrick

Some sort of like like mind control to them that sings this song whoever that sounds like music in their brains and it takes over them and and and later on and it you know like ah the the magistrate like and his wife get killed by Tory Marock when he's under a um. Ah, ah, ah, like ah like ah like a trance It's a really interesting way to to end the story because didn't jugger doesn't kill the guy who could expose him you know so he's not like so again, it's like oh like you want you want Jugger to go. You know I gotta kill you.

21:10.65

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah.

21:27.65

cbderrick

Because you can fuck up my whole career but he doesn't and I think this's a great little moment. They do this a lot in this book where you think the person who is going to get the revenge or get the right payoff you know or deserving of the payoff doesn't get to do it and leaves them kind of like. I think it adds to the level of like of neurotic tension that all these characters kind of suffer through because they don't get to like like get that sense of like psychic relief from doing something that they want to do you know or they something happens that they don't want to do and they get blamed for it in the in the wrong way. Um. Interesting. Oh but but then that magistrate he did kind of let off like a ah he did he did rat jugger out because I know I issue 5 or 6 of the ones that stroman did is like the thing where that those that that it's known who he is you know, but remember the issue where that that the.

22:19.10

Steven Bagatourian

Um, oh yes, right.

22:23.10

cbderrick

Killers from I just later on it's later maybe out of 6 5 6 years later but you find out that like jugger was part of this thing called the the galactic assassinations guild I was like what is this? This is a time forgot about this but but but this is the people sort of kill him because they know because he's been exposed.

22:35.49

Steven Bagatourian

It.

22:41.96

cbderrick

He's kind of he's working. He's in like this the the system of like oh there's a guy who's running around as a legionaire who shouldn't be who's the ex excon but but but that's that's a few issues later. So yeah I mean yeah, so so that's kind of like the the Chris Warner issues you know, but not skip it over them because they're not interested. They not good. But I feel like I feel like it's a it's a bit. It's it's not as interesting as storytelling I don't think as to when we get to the to the ly drumman issues which we'll talk about next which we about now.

23:09.49

Steven Bagatourian

yeah yeah totally yeah yeah I would agree. Um the warner stuff is super solid and there's some amazing moments particularly with potassio inking warner like there's some great splash pages and just great moments like. The jugger grimrod splash page and alien legion number eight when he's on that planet with a giant tree behind him and it's a full page of jugger and then it's like 2 pages later where that creature leaps out of the swamp or the the trees and it's another fullpage spread. There's some beautiful moments in these Chris Warner issues inked by potassio and emberly. Ah, Randy Amberlin as well. But I do agree with you Chris that overall just the overall storytelling is it's more solid and traditional. But I feel like proassio and stroman both bring just a little bit more of an inspired flair to the storytelling that just kind of. Livens up the proceedings and makes things just kind of feel like they're working on more levels for me.

24:06.46

cbderrick

Yeah, yeah, well I mean I'm not sure when this falls in Stroman's um I Yeah but but but but is this is before he does X factor right.

24:13.73

Steven Bagatourian

Um I think it's got to be early fairly I think it's very I think it's very early. Oh way before way before? yeah.

24:24.72

cbderrick

Yeah way before actually yeah yeah, so I mean look so what I love about this german issues is the first one is um, what's the first one called it's called a it's called called hollow harvest right? so.

24:36.60

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah, what what number wait what up what number was that again I'm trying to pull it up here. Is it? Okay, um, okay hold oh it's that yellow cover. Yeah yeah, by the way that covers by Carl but by actually drawn by Carl Potts

24:41.70

cbderrick

What I don't remember it's got this got this cover.

24:48.44

cbderrick

Yeah, yeah, which is crazy.

24:54.76

Steven Bagatourian

Which is kind of cool that he starts drawing the covers all of a sudden here. Yeah, it's issue 12 of alien legion by the way I love the color on that cover just that yellow that yellow really that really pops I could imagine that popping like crazy on the newsstand um or the comic shop. Um, but it ah looks like Frank sooko.

25:01.70

cbderrick

Yeah.

25:13.14

Steven Bagatourian

Did the colors and or the inks over Carl Potts here which is really interesting. It's signed by Carl Potts and Frank Sooco which is ah a noteworthy team here on the cover of issue 12

25:24.21

cbderrick

Well yeah, he's probably yeah so I'll be coloring it because he's doing all these kind of painted covers on all of them. You know? So um, it's it's interesting. It's interesting. Um, and but yeah, but but this issue he gets back to.

25:30.52

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

25:43.11

cbderrick

Something about zellouss oh but that's was is like a plot by Carl Podt Scriptper Allen Zellens but it fits with the rest of the stuff where it's like it's this issue about like um, fucking with is fucking with ecosystems again, you know.

25:56.25

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, it's another environmental issue which was so like just intriguing to see that alien legion really more than any comic I can think of from that era just like the first year of it really has a strong focus on like. Just the environment and ecology and preserving natural ecosystems like this is not what I expected from this book of intergalactic warfare and yet again we return to the same kind of thematic motifs as the first issue like we got to protect the environment and it's not mother earth. Because we're out in space on another planet but like we have to protect natural habitats and that's a strong recurring theme here and by the way I'm just looking at Alan Alllan zellinitz' name the writer and I'm realizing now. It's got an extra e in it that I never saw before. So perhaps it's pronounced Alan Zelinenets like that is a. Wacky name Ellen Zealinitz I don't know I'm just looking at the spelling more closely. Um, yeah Zelineette perhaps yeah, um, another just curious thing I want to note here and I don't know if this continues but I feel like it might on some of the issues. There's no in credited on this issue where Larry Stroman begins penciling which is.

26:51.59

cbderrick

Yeah, zone That's yeah, yeah, zone one That's yeah.

27:07.82

cbderrick

Oh I mean in the the one I'm looking at in the the the Omni Bus Ourgos Omni bus says this a guy named Randy. Um, yeah, yeah mean yeah.

27:09.52

Steven Bagatourian

Odd.

27:13.29

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah, is it Emberlin oh okay, well then emberland's credit was left off of the actual floppy comic for. Issue number 12 here. So I was like looking at it and trying to figure out like with stroman inking himself here I didn't think so so okay, so cool.

27:30.30

cbderrick

Not the things to be but but see let's see so so look his work. This is it What was interesting about this is is that each of these issues his he gets more confident as an artist. It is so.

27:44.35

Steven Bagatourian

I was thinking the exact same thing. Yeah, it started to look it looked like Larry More and more.

27:49.21

cbderrick

Clear about what he's trying to do and it's not that he's ever bad. You know, but but not that I was just enough that he becomes confident in drawing. These characters is what is is what it is he understands more what it means to draw these characters. You know that sharoo just did a masterful job kind of like bringing to life. And he's got like some heavy heavy shoes to fill to come in and do this and it's interesting because the story. The story is less action centric so it kind of allows him because of just draw. This is my feeling to draw the characters and get a sense of how to draw them. And and and and live in them like on the page before it gets into the action sequence. You know, um, this is a kind cool episode ah terms of like what the politics are on this issue is is that these guys come to this planet. Oh no there's a guy who's like some aristocrat who has who can who can order the lesion about. He feels that he's being cheated with these. He's getting these fish specimens that are dying and he realizes they've been poisoned and they're poisoned on the planet in terms of how they're harvested and he sends the region to kind of like Queen up you know, like the technique of harvesting these you know like. Like like the raw materials and it just feels like this is like ah ah it feels like this is like ah ah, some sort of it's an analog to like the way american big business is like fucking with like Africa or like South America like it's just like this churning up. Like the natural resources at the expense of the population and then somebody wants like an elephant or some shit like that and it's like why the elve is dying oh because you know they're spilling oil over it and it's just like it's a really interesting way of like telling a story about like so look at what humanity is doing I mean just what see again.

29:23.25

Steven Bagatourian

Oh definitely.

29:41.65

cbderrick

This is what science fiction is supposed to do right? Let's to make us look at what's really going on in our own world and say hey here's how we could do this but make it like feel like cracker jackck explosive I think this is why this was an interesting issue storywise but also interesting issue for for stroman to get is. Just just to get his feet wet with drawinging these characters you know and creat's creating a sense of like energy and I mean it's a great little subs story for like done and like Graham Rod we're gonna like quit the lead or I mean I feel like they're gonna go awol right? cause they get off this money like they always talking about going a wall. As as if they're not going to get hunted down and and maybe they won't get hunted down I mean they don't explain what the rules are if you go awol from little legia like you know like you know are you going to get murdered or I guess it's the volunteer thing.

30:26.15

Steven Bagatourian

Um, right? Yeah I mean that might be a future story Arc I'm sure we're but we'll probably see some deserters at some point here I I would be curious how they're dealt with.

30:33.92

cbderrick

It is a volunteer thing. So I guess you could leave whenever you wanted. But. Yeah, but it's fascinating because you know because these guys do this thing or they like you know that the the business people don't want to let the legion do their business even do their job like they're so strict on like. Yeah, it's just keep fucking the environment now because it's better for us Moneywise it's so much of like an indictment of like what America is doing like all over the globe and all these places are doing like the way this business in general not America just like business in general fucks. The planet for profits and this is showing you how Ag is doing that like. Been they sure these's little kids getting sick and like this stomach's all fucked up you like this is wild like how he's doing all this you know at the end of the day. The guy who the aristocrat guy you know like like like like they harvest special versions for him to trick him into thinking that they're doing good I thought that was such a damn like. Like fuck you to him that he is he know pops. But there was a crazy story. A crazy story.

31:37.30

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, and it's definitely got a lot of parallels to the world. We live in even today. Sadly, you know you can look at parallels with ah this story and what happened in Flint Michigan and you know the ah. The governor's mansion getting the the good water ah delivered to them for them to drink. They're only drinking the bottled water. They're not drinking the water with the lead in it because they know it's fucked. But ah, you know the people in flint them and their children are all being poisoned and it's like the same kind of bullshit. It's like government fucking.

32:03.35

cbderrick

Go.

32:15.12

Steven Bagatourian

Contracts and business and political corruption all that and you know alien legion again. Not your average comic about just aliens and space opera. Ah this is a very political book from jump and one year in now twelve months actually the book was bi-monthly so two years in.

32:31.83

cbderrick

2 two years in there's this.

32:34.70

Steven Bagatourian

2 years in it continues to be just incredibly political. You know and it feels like Archie Goodwin and Marvel comics. No one is telling them to rein it in no one's telling him telling them to like make it more about just creepy aliens and laser guns like this is very. Adult storytelling for a Marvel comic in the 80 s and you know they're just they're going for it.

32:54.70

cbderrick

Yeah I mean yeah I mean I mean look I mean it's definitely like Epic book. So we know that they're able to do a a little different but I can't think of any book really at all that is this political I Just can't I mean I can't I mean consistently.

33:09.50

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah, yeah, yeah I mean issue after issue.

33:13.90

cbderrick

You know, like what there might be a mini here there that kind of touches on something like that or yeah, remember that first hawkeye mini series when he loses his hearing he's going it like rocks and oil is kind of about that. Ah, but this is so but they cover so much with like the way like his under It's like you know the. His name. Ah Frank ah, Zellinette's like he understands geopolitics in a way that is un unusual for a comic writer you know because I think i.

33:47.14

Steven Bagatourian

Yes I would agree and has and has the interest too like has a clear interest in yeah.

33:52.50

cbderrick

Yeah, has needs I mean I'm sure someone maybe like a John Rogers or even like a kibusi. Maybe even like um Peter David could probably write this type of stuff but I don't know if that the interest or if they feel they they would want to put it in their books. You know I mean i.

34:07.46

Steven Bagatourian

Right.

34:09.76

cbderrick

I I feel that there might be some Astro city issues that do this occasionally but not so hard edged as this book does it, you know and it's cynical in a way and and then our characters get kind of caught in the the they they get caught in the crosshas of of Like. Of business like crashing against the governmentla against its people that they sent to stop stuff I mean it feels like some some you win. It feels like this is the un was sent in and they got attacked by like the local forces and because the local forces like didn't want to like like yeah to. Write Reform what's going on but was interesting about this this this this episode you know like story wise is there's that character who was like the ah what right? the scientist ever He is who trying to show them. What's his name like um, what's his name.

35:03.92

Steven Bagatourian

Oh oh yeah, the addict the the scientist. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

35:06.37

cbderrick

Um, Ob thin that we like like oh like he he's use. He's like a he's like a Diane fossy typepe character right? like a diane like fire remember somebody that? Yeah yeah, and whats crazy is is that like projecto Grimrod sees him.

35:14.13

Steven Bagatourian

Right? He's an environmental environmentalist and activist.

35:24.50

cbderrick

He's like what's he twos two alive I thought we killed him seven years ago have I was like cut tail like that's another again, it's like they're filtering him in more to the stories in ways that they didn't early on crazy me.

35:30.40

Steven Bagatourian

That yeah, you're at those funny that was just kind of added I was out of nowhere. It was just kind of an aside in the story. It was just like 3 panels and it wasn't like a big story point but jugger was like what it can't be.

35:43.92

cbderrick

Yeah, yeah.

35:49.16

Steven Bagatourian

Um, my God like oh shit you old fool like oh I you know I was supposed to I thought I left you for dead you know, whatever you you you? you ain't worth you ain't worth a fistful sludge to me now. But that's just random and funny. Um.

35:52.73

cbderrick

Yeah I was like it which is totally a overine type of life. But yeah I mean this I mean this is another interesting issue I think that Stroman you know like his panels are all really good. The composition I Just don't think that he's got a style yet that he wants to say that like he's not who he who he's gonna become yet. You know.

36:16.53

Steven Bagatourian

Agreed oh yeah, no, no, not not at all because Larry Stroman is one of the premier stylists I think of mainstream comics in the 80 s and you're right? He's just getting his feet wet here in this first issue but he does develop awfully quickly and I just looked it up. While you were talking Chris and alien legion does. In fact, represent Larry Struman's first ever continuing full-length series work for american comics. Um, all he'd ever done before this was just backup stories in a couple of comics the previous year he did backup stories in world's finest comics. And american flag for first comics and Howard jacobn he did just some backups. Yeah, so really, some great books to debut in but this was the first time he had a regular continuing assignment on a full length gig and talk about just being thrown in the deep end.

36:55.26

cbderrick

Well.

37:07.75

cbderrick

Yeah I mean.

37:09.70

Steven Bagatourian

Ah, following Frank Siroko and Chris Warner on a book like alien legion with a cast of fucking thousands with all of these crazy aliens to draw all the action plus the politics I mean hats off to Larry Stroman for the first issue looking as good as it does, but you're 100% right? That with these coming issues. We're going to talk about he starts to actually become the Larry Stroman that we really love.

37:30.88

cbderrick

That we know we'll see but this is is interesting too about there was an issue. No an episode of Rob Lyfeld's podcast when he was the hear the it was somewhere in like the in like the heroes he born it like.

37:45.42

Steven Bagatourian

Observations.

37:49.88

cbderrick

1 one of those he was talking about how Jim Lee he's really good at drawing characters that that like a lot of people have done.

38:04.64

Steven Bagatourian

Um.

38:06.35

cbderrick

So like you know, like like if like the reason why he wasn't this is what he was saying reason why the Rob like like Rob I feltstein. The reason why that Jim wasn't so good at doing fantastic 4 for that that he was born is there's there's there's there's only John Byrne and Jack Kirby that did like amazing long runs with great work. You look at Batman or x-man like all these people have done this stuff and they've done so much of it and I feel like it's interesting. Kind of thing to say for anybody because it's like people start drawing comics and they want to be kids as their kids high school and are doing stuff. They're drawing like their favorite superheroes.

38:41.86

Steven Bagatourian

Oh yeah.

38:43.37

cbderrick

You know? So oh my god you know what? um' I'm spending like 8 years drawing Spiderman or Captain America I remember and then finally I get that book like like the guy who did my comic did what my little thing I was trying to sell a couple of years ago that dark the dark arts thing you know and he finally got in and then he got signed an exclusive deal at Marvel.

39:01.37

Steven Bagatourian

Right.

39:03.24

cbderrick

And he was doing like bendus last year on Spiderman and he was so fucking excited to have been doing Spiderman because he was like dude I've been drawing Spiderman since someone was like 12 and these guy's like in his forty s you know he's he's mexican so he it was harder than to break in but ah, but I was like so I say that because.

39:08.33

Steven Bagatourian

That's nuts.

39:13.81

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

39:22.72

cbderrick

The level of like how daunting it is to draw Alienian characters because there's not enough people who've done it. You can't look at the work and go here's how the splast spaces here's all this is what you know John Burn did this is what you know.

39:34.52

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, you can't swipe you certainly can't swipe from like twenty or thirty years of Jack Kirby like you can on most Marvel books. You just can't do that.

39:42.89

cbderrick

Yeah, yeah, you can't do that. So so so so that's why I think that like his work and also because again it's becoming a bimonthly. He's got time to kind of work things out between issues to kind of to get better at it because he's he gets really better because even in the second issue.

40:01.49

Steven Bagatourian

oh yeah oh man oh he starts totally true. He starts to get better so fast. It's really impressive and as we get further into it when that when that woman legionnaire shows up in one of these coming issues that was the moment where I was like ah there's the Larry Stroman hair

40:02.75

cbderrick

He's marketedly better than what he is in the first issue he goes you know.

40:18.55

cbderrick

Um, yeah, no.

40:20.41

Steven Bagatourian

Because Larry Stroman draws hair like no other comic book artist ever and it's amazing and I I heard Larry talking about this in an interview once where he was saying that like he wasn't quite sure how to draw hair in a comic and like he particularly wasn't sure how to draw certain types of hair and he wasn't sure like he just. He didn't have like it well thought out so he just kind of did his own thing with it and drew it in a way that he thought looked cool design wise and to me it's like it's one of the coolest things about stroman is the way that he draws hair and it's funny how like you know, different artists different artists have their things that are just really cool. The way they draw you like I think of.

40:51.20

cbderrick

Or your work commitment.

40:58.53

Steven Bagatourian

Early Todd Macfarlane and fucking loving the way he drew eyebrows and just like certain things that stick in your head for stroman with me the way he would draw women's hair in particular just amazing.

41:00.25

cbderrick

Right. For exactly exactly? Yeah, so yeah, so this the second issue this issue is a storyline continuation from like I think the first the top of the Chris Warner issue ah where this guy named.

41:20.84

Steven Bagatourian

Her.

41:24.92

cbderrick

Ah, Taka talk got killed and now it's like is that he had what dying wish he was like hey Toy Mont Talk Mer Toy Monttra can you you know, ah send this thing to this woman that I was in love with you know and.

41:25.58

Steven Bagatourian

Oh yeah.

41:39.21

Steven Bagatourian

Earth.

41:43.36

cbderrick

And it's this whole thing where it's like hey he goes through this whole page where he's like hey I have to go through the locker of my dead comrade.

41:48.74

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, so sad man, it's so sad like and there's captions here too which is interesting because they do this as captions which you know we've talked about this so much instead of word balloons here for some reason we're doing captions and maybe it's just they thought it would be too many word balloons but it's like. Tori Montroch is thinking to himself if you haven't done. It. Let me tell you it's 1 weird feeling to go through a dead friend's things Talkcta was always a livewire like mescot used to say a clown sure there'd be grog and his locker and sure Talkctok would have shared it with any legionary who needed a boost an envelope of handwritten love poetry. Pretty old fashionshioned I found her home worldld address there and all his magic tricks smoke cubes and the disappearing orbs. He'd frustrate Mescad with for a second there it seemed like tactac himself was guiding me in sleight of hand. He's playing with ah with these magical orbs here. He's ah.

42:45.28

cbderrick

To the tree. Yeah, and then that group that great last panel.

42:45.92

Steven Bagatourian

Kind of doing a trick with them and then yeah doing the trick and then he and then and then he slumps over in the last panel and the the magical orbs like they disappear and they appear again, but Montok is already kind of doubled over with his his face in his hands and it's a sad last panel and he says ah you know for a second. It seemed like talkcktak himself was guiding me. In sleight of hand. But no, he was gone and I had a promise to keep and it's just great. Great storytelling one page just so poignant.

43:08.41

cbderrick

Yeah, it's that I mean it's great to time just this one page. That's so much cool shit and the next few pages. These guys are going on a mission to that home world Planet where Talktaco was from and then the planet's being towed away and I was like what the fuck is this shit. They told.

43:25.42

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, that was so weird of cats.

43:28.35

cbderrick

I Mean it's so isn't the weird story. This was just a weird story but ah, but.

43:32.13

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, and they got flowers. That's what that's what he's got to give to the to the woman the lost the the the woman who doesn't know talk talk is dead talk talk has some flowers that are moon lilies and the the woman the woman's name is Cora Cora

43:42.51

cbderrick

Yeah.

43:47.16

Steven Bagatourian

So it's moon lilies for coracorra which by the way happens to be the title of this issue which by the way I believe is a shout out to the classic science fiction story flowers for Algernon and it's actually very similar because flowers for Algernon actually deals with a laboratory experiment. Um lab rats.

43:56.34

cbderrick

Oh okay.

44:06.44

Steven Bagatourian

And um and it's it's also kind of a similar vibe or there's some there's some shoutouts and I think some homages to flowers for Algernon kind of hidden throughout the story here and so um I I actually haven't read flowers for Algernon but I know what it's about roughly speaking and I noticed as we got into this that it seemed like this was definitely a.

44:14.99

cbderrick

Right.

44:26.60

Steven Bagatourian

Little callout from zealanits to that other classic Science Fiction tale.

44:28.82

cbderrick

I Know of this strip I don't think I've read it either I I think it mean but that's the whole like pull yourself up for from your bull stress be oh because that's dirt but the guy who's dumb and they like increase intelligence right.

44:38.52

Steven Bagatourian

It's yes, that's what it is. It's a guy who has like a really low intellect. He's a janitor or some such and he takes part in this laboratory experiment where he gets like his brain power increase to be a genius right? like and suddenly he has all these other thoughts and then it's about. That level of genius also kind of slowly falling away from him and then there's a lab rat in the story. That's a character who I believe apparently he has great like empathy or love for and his final dying request the guy whose intellect is now dropping back down after the experiments over is he wants this lab rat. Who died um to have flowers left on his grave and the lab rat's name was Algernon and hence I think flowers flowers for Algernon, but so it's a similar kind of thing though to this story you see. It's like ah it's a dying person's last request. Ah you know and that's I guess what Zellinitz was referencing here and so.

45:19.21

cbderrick

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

45:34.76

Steven Bagatourian

Alien legion just ah, full of ah references and allusions. You know there's a lot of stuff going on here meexually politically and I also just have to call out this page Chris page 4 of this second stroman issue that panel with ah. With Mantro right? There. That's one of these first moments where I feel like I'm starting to see Larry Stroman style starting to burst through just the the angularity and kind of the the boldness of that sad panel of Tory Montrock right there that's starting starting to look like stroman.

46:03.46

cbderrick

Well there, there's that but ah, but also yeah, but also the way he's doing the smoke is kind of very much the smoke becomes sort of like part of his signature style of doing like the hair and and other things like that These are.

46:09.65

Steven Bagatourian

Um, oh yes, yeah.

46:17.80

Steven Bagatourian

That's a great point.

46:20.87

cbderrick

There's like it feels very organic in a way that's stylized like organic in a way but also on the next page the next page There's that one panel with the fourth panel where but looking at Toy Mantra just is the sorrow in the little box. You know? do you see that.

46:23.47

Steven Bagatourian

You're right.

46:33.35

Steven Bagatourian

That that's so that's one I that's the one I was talking about yeah, yeah that's the one I was told yeah yeah that totally I totally agree that one like that feels like Stroman right? like that feels like you know what? I mean it's like that's angular kind of just dope interesting looking Larry Stroman work

46:37.86

cbderrick

Okay, okay, okay, okay, yeah, young. Yeah yeah, yeah.

46:49.69

Steven Bagatourian

And so yeah, you see like you said so early issue 2 and you're starting to see some of the signature stromanisms creeping in.

46:53.23

cbderrick

Oh you're right? You're right because he pi doesn like it was as age 3 you have with the smoke. Yeah, you know and then the rest of it is like they're chasing the they're chasing this planet down they get stuck. They get captured by like hoever was towing the planet out of orbit but some some robot situation. Um.

47:08.85

Steven Bagatourian

V.

47:11.61

cbderrick

And then it's just kind of like they got to like you say like they're in like the lab rat stuff and they got to break out and see you can survive this and who's smart enough to get out and all this. It's an interesting little story about that. Um I think this is the issue where they where where Xero first begins to start feeling his age.

47:28.67

Steven Bagatourian

Oh yeah, that might be true.

47:31.53

cbderrick

I think it's like 1 issue is like 1 or 2 lie. You know they're kind of throw away where he's like feeling tired through the the chase they're doing I mean the escape they're doing and and that becomes like a issue a thing for the next four or five issues about his age has become a thing and I mean. Who knows how azy is and what what What's the equivalent but but you know he's already had a careers in general and so he's probably like twice as old as that as anybody you know or at least 1520 years he got 20 years I've been everybody. You know.

47:58.96

Steven Bagatourian

Oh yeah, oh yeah, that's a good point because yeah, we saw on those lash flashbacks that he was like a highly decorated general on his home planet. So he's had a whole long illustrious war career before he ever got to the legion.

48:11.97

cbderrick

Yeah, yeah, he just remember you saying later on he said that issue was this year too he was really smart. He was like you know why I reached the point when I became a jet where he felt alive on the battlefield not behind a desk and the higher he rose the less action that he saw so he quit being part of the regulars and. And became a legion and started at the bottom again. But what's crazy but this is is they go There's this the planet has been like the ecosystem is being tripped out into me being too cold and he's and then that one great panel where he's like where toy montock he's worried about the flowers on that one page you know what? I don't know what but it's like. The flower's all big in the foreground. He's like he's kind of like yeah like I gotta worry about this and and how's it gonna work in this cold you know and that they escape the thing and they they take out this sort of like this cold like generator thing and they save the planet and you know and then tori and.

48:55.85

Steven Bagatourian

Oh.

49:07.43

cbderrick

Goes to the woman core course place and he gives her the flowers and she's like oh who's this guy again. Oh yeah, yeah yeah.

49:11.71

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah, this was really this was really interesting the way this all went down. It was not what I expected.

49:17.91

cbderrick

So was expected and he was kind of like well I mean look it's ah but for a while there hadn't been the backup story but the backup story in this is.

49:32.87

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah, it's about the woman. Yeah, it's it's it's really yeah, it's really interesting because it's like it almost reminds me Chris of what you were saying earlier. How alien legion doesn't give you the.

49:37.14

cbderrick

The woman about the Cora Quora

49:46.33

Steven Bagatourian

The payoff that you're expecting with characters getting revenge like you were saying earlier like it kind of applies here too like it's a consistently sort of anticlimactic series in a way that I don't mean in a negative way. It's more just like real life. Where you're expecting and hoping things are going to go a certain way because you have a desire right? and you have like a mission that you're on like Tori Montrocks here on a mission to like have this hopefully final emotional moment with this woman and just like so much of real life like you know your plans end up not being the way the shit goes. And so when Tori's walking up to this woman's house and he's all nervous and he's about to give her these flowers from her dead lover the final request the the man that she does not know is dead. He's thinking to himself. How do you tell someone? a loved one's dead. Do you look him straight in the eyes and speak deliberately slowly. Or or do you gaze past them mumble I'm sorry and hope they will understand the rest by intuition and like that's that's some real shit to be thinking about as you're walking up to this woman's door and then she he's like coraorra yes tori montro of no mod squadron nomad squadron the alien legion tac ta wanted you to have these. It was his last wish. And then like you said she's just like which fellow which fellow sent these ah tac ta he died a hero's death in battle I'm so sorry tac tac which one was oh oh yes, the the music the music magic oh it has been a long while and. She didn't know he cared so much. That's what tori thinks she told me no tears. No outbursts. But then again I was a stranger and perhaps she was in shock she thanked me and I left and then that's kind of it and he gets back on his ship and that's more or less. It.

51:18.78

cbderrick

Yeah.

51:33.93

Steven Bagatourian

And that's kind of what we've been building up to the whole issue. So I read that and I was like what the fuck like that's that's that's it.

51:36.91

cbderrick

Yeah, and you just like what's going on and then and and and and then the backup story called Reprise or repriee. However, you want to say it and this was devastating because okay so you get into the thing.

51:48.25

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah, yeah, do you want to take the take people through this.

51:56.59

cbderrick

Woman's there. She's looking at the the flowers like well these are the um these the moon lilies she takes him out of this sort of glass case she smells them and it just says memory and we cut to when she's with talk talk and they're Like. He's like playing and singing a song has something like a loot or a liar. Whatever it is and he's doing magic for her. Yeah, it's just like all this stuff like they're having this kind of romantic afternoon like it's like it. It's like at a magic hour kind of thing you know and he's like I just I'm happy and.

52:17.41

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, an Alien Alien Liar. Yeah.

52:32.98

cbderrick

She's like oh you're so cool and he's like oh like ah you know like I could spend time with you. You know I'd make your like make you a proper wife you know and then she's like oh it's late you know and then she's like yeah I gotta go to sleep. You know you know like like we can have Love. We can make love Tomorrow. You know and then he's like all right? Well I'll see you and then another dude shows up and it's like he's this is a hooker. It's a call girl.

52:59.98

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah, oh yeah, yeah, and actually and before the other dude she says lovely. You know so lovelier your songs but then before she says by she says but you have forgotten and then he says ah forgive me and he has to pay her.

53:13.79

cbderrick

Yeah, yeah, he's like paying it for a time ah like it's not even like those the thing is they have this afternoon or all this kind of stuff and that even fucking. It's just like I am renting your time. Yeah, you know.

53:17.69

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah, yeah.

53:27.56

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, he was paying her for the yeah, the girlfriend experience as they say.

53:32.89

cbderrick

Yes, the girlfriend experience exactly and then there's another guy who she has sex with that night and he like looks at the house and he hears like that guy talking you know like so he's heard it and he's like hey so what do you? It's just it's just like.

53:42.86

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

53:50.85

cbderrick

And he starts singing as he leaves and it's just like that was such a sad sad moment and then it comes back to her present day. She finishes like smelling like the moons and and then she throws him in the trash.

54:02.90

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, and how did you? How did you take that because I'm I'm looking at that now and at first it made me really sad, kind of reading that page but looking at it again now I'm like well you know she did take him out and smell him in the first place and then she smells them a second time. So I don't know that she. Is completely unfeeling about whatever moment she had with talk talk but at the same point. It's like you know what? she's supposed to do. It's like he was. He was a client. Yeah yeah, right, right? She's throwing it away. Yeah yeah, and that.

54:27.83

cbderrick

Yeah, well I'm I'm not saying she I'm heartless bit. Um I'm just she's like saying oh I can't have this memory around you would like yeah.

54:39.88

Steven Bagatourian

And it makes sense to me because it's you know probably is painful for her too. But it's it's another one of these Alien Legion Endings That's just kind of devastating no matter how you slice it. It's like dude is dead. His final wish has been fulfilled but like she cares, but not. That much., But then ah I mean maybe a little but you know life goes on.

54:55.15

cbderrick

Um, but but but but but at the same time. It's like this guy's dying Wish is not about his mom. It's not about his dad. It's about the call girl that he spent time with.

55:06.53

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah. Yeah.

55:13.83

cbderrick

And that's a little disturbing.

55:16.52

Steven Bagatourian

I mean it also sounds like it may not be unrealistic because it could be the kind of thing where like his hope in like a potential relationship with this with this woman. You know, even though they had like a prostitute client. Relationship even though she was a a sex worker. Um I think that you know again on an alien planet. It could have been the thing that was ah sort of keeping his his hope alive while he was at war you know what? I mean like he was thinking about ah you know she and I we had a special connection one day I'll return and we can have a life together. I mean fuck man if you're a a soldier in an alien legion like who knows what keeps you going all night you know who knows what you need to like to wake up. Yeah.

55:56.95

cbderrick

Well was. That's absolutely true. Yeah, that's a very. It's a great point and he's like saying earlon He he's like on make you a proper wife make my proper wife and it's he cro had feelings and it's just like but she but it's like.

56:04.85

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah, yeah, he had feelings. He clearly had feelings for her.

56:14.20

cbderrick

I you know I don't know it's just hit me home as like god like this guy like he died and and he I remember David saying like he wrote poetry and I was like this is just wild like this guy he he clearly care for her way more than she I mean obviously whatever I mean it's it's like the.

56:18.92

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

56:30.81

Steven Bagatourian

Um, oh yeah.

56:33.97

cbderrick

I think it goes back to I was saying before with with gath m scott in early on how he was concerned the Chris Warner she was concerned about how lonely he was and how he thought he could found a sense of camaraderie with people in the leg and he couldn't because they're dying and it's like isn't another character who's.

56:41.15

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

56:52.35

cbderrick

So Lonely and he but he but he was like the live vi at the clown the funny guy and is that like all an act because he like really wants to be with this woman and and and if he's paying her not it still like that's what you wanted and that's and once you've got it. It doesn't have the same value that I mean like if toy montock knew oh this is ah a girlfriend experienced thing like he would have risked his life. They would have done all this shit because he was like hey we could run away and not go to this planet but he's like you know I get my word to dude. So It's really like that's where it adds a level of like.

57:19.36

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah, yeah, yeah.

57:27.50

cbderrick

Like a level of poignancy that I was like God these guys freaking Frank Zelinis is never never pulling punches.

57:29.20

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah, this is a deeply deeply thought out work from Zellin It's you know? yeah.

57:37.40

cbderrick

Never point pointed I love it I fucking love it. Um, the next issue is I love this issue because you know there was a backup story. Showed us like Sagar's sister and what she was involved in and now is and and I was maybe issue 3 4 so that was this oh this is over a year ago. I mean this is what issue 14 now.

58:00.40

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah, it was a while ago.

58:10.68

cbderrick

So that's like so so us's month twenty eight from month six so that's two years ago you know it's at least two years ago they bring back the story about Sarah Gar's sister. She's in some domestic abuse situation with the guy that she ran off with and it's here that stroman is like. Like like Stroman is becoming more and more who he who who who he expect him to be is as an artist. Yeah.

58:33.88

Steven Bagatourian

Oh yeah, 100% and and he gets to draw his first cover for alien legion with Frank Sook Frank soroco on colors. It looks like and it's a very nice cover and for sure you're right? Stroman is starting to come into his own here.

58:47.60

cbderrick

And I mean this story is crazy because you know she's been beat up the duty fund. He's a bounty hunter. He's up killing people and he killed someone by mistake and he.

58:56.74

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

59:03.81

Steven Bagatourian

Yep.

59:07.29

cbderrick

He's got to leave. He know he's got to deal with this. He beat threw down this cheap puts a phone call over I write these we have she put? yeah.

59:07.52

Steven Bagatourian

And you should mention you should mention Chris ah, these are snake people I just want to mention that for everyone listening these are snake these are snake people. Aliens we're talking about.

59:21.11

cbderrick

She gets a she sends a phone call to the to the legion this or not to but to the audit the art Astro Judiciary and she wants help and then you cut to where the legion are are doing like some maneuvers and stuff like that and then sarahgar gets a call.

59:26.79

Steven Bagatourian

Right.

59:38.14

cbderrick

And he's like oh and they're like oh it's your sister and he's like oh shit what hell happened to her and he's like well you know we just want to let you know, but just's this great panel. He's like crying like you notice this like this little page when he gets the news and there's like that little tear in his eye that's fucking dope because it's like this guy like you know the pain that he's in.

59:49.52

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah, yes.

59:57.17

cbderrick

Because the way they ended last time where she like stole all his money like the reason he's in the lis. He's in the Lisa first was because she took all his money you know.

01:00:05.70

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, and and lied to him and lied to him and ran off with this dude who apparently is a fucking bounty hunter. Yeah.

01:00:11.58

cbderrick

Yeah, who's an abusive bounty hunter and then he's like I got to save my sister I told my mom and dad that I would protect her and now I'm fucked up. It was crazy. Is it.

01:00:21.77

Steven Bagatourian

Yep. Even though even though ah she betrayed me even all this I still got to go save her.

01:00:29.71

cbderrick

Yeah, again, it's his moral code I mean I mean I the stuff on these pages I mean what is what are we in? Ah 1 2 3 4 5 six seven page 7 it's like. You know like a page 7 at second panel where like you see he's looking straight on at us and then he's he's using memorying them like live with like you know what there were kids you know dad's stroman again like showing like who he's gonna be like that. Ah like that photograph that thing is saragar and it's fascinating I would like.

01:00:57.64

Steven Bagatourian

Yes, yes.

01:01:05.32

cbderrick

He gets the chance to do it every once in a while but it's more. It's more. It's it's more you know like it's more fully realized here than I was in the Tri Monta one of the and the other and the other issue like I love the fact that he like he's growing so fast as an artist I know because he has two months to do this book. You know, whatever it is. It's coming out.

01:01:21.86

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah.

01:01:24.70

cbderrick

Yeah I mean the the schedule allows him to like like get better like like exponentially better issue by issue almost pays by pays and some of this stuff you know? um, but but he did something really cool that the cool storyline watchs it. He.

01:01:34.98

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, totally totally.

01:01:43.90

cbderrick

He like enlists like you know he enlists Drgger Gumrod and and um and torka done to do like this off books mission with him because he knows because he knows that he knows that they're like morally flexible.

01:01:52.60

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah.

01:01:58.51

Steven Bagatourian

Yes, this is crazy. Yeah, this is some wild shit and it really kind of ah right now this sort of ah moment here kind of signals a different relationship that saragar starts to have with Jugger grimrod.

01:02:00.65

cbderrick

The way that nobody else is.

01:02:14.10

Steven Bagatourian

Where he really over these next issues is all about kind of bringing Jugger Grimrod into the fold and sarragar is ingratiating himself to grimrod in a way because he realizes the utility of someone like jugger grimrod to the alien legion if he can be harnessed or if as s saragar says if he can be bridled.

01:02:31.85

cbderrick

Yeah.

01:02:33.59

Steven Bagatourian

And if I can if I can bridle him and get him to kind of you know, just be broken in a way where he will serve us instead of being a live wire. His skills are extraordinary as a soldier and you know and in this case, he needs those kind of like crazy wild skills. Ah you know guys who just don't give a fuck and are willing to break the rules. To go after this scumbag who's ah fucked with his sister.

01:02:56.18

cbderrick

Yeah, and it's crazy because they kind of go a wall to go to this little like like like this pleasure satellite where dude like kill someone like that page me shoes Duby assassinates to do that's actually fucking cool as shit.

01:03:10.72

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah, um.

01:03:15.17

cbderrick

That's like stroman doing like some of his great I mean the stuff that you know him for way to around like it's like he's showing he was he had this design sense now you know like that shot like yeah, there's 4 shots of I mean 6 shots right? at the assassination. It's like.

01:03:23.45

Steven Bagatourian

Move. Um, yes.

01:03:32.18

cbderrick

You' in the crosshair in the crossa of two shots and be shut dead then he's falling for 3 panels I mean that's like the cool stuff that he always does and um yeah, and you realize you're like oh this is where he like is he's like he's.

01:03:35.92

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, you're right? It's page. Ah fourteen fourteen right there yeah Yeah

01:03:49.50

cbderrick

I Mean he's flexing. He's like trying so out that he's always wanted to do. It feels like in my head like like if I would do this you know? um.

01:03:51.36

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah, yeah, oh hundred percent and look at the very next page man page 15 also starting to look like stroman look at those 2 women on either side in the foreground just with the wild alien outfits and the smiles on their faces and the unique facial features and then the woman.

01:04:03.10

cbderrick

Right.

01:04:10.88

Steven Bagatourian

Who looks like she's propositioning saragar with the crazy half naked outfit on panel three and I mean these are all like Larry Stroman just totally flex and like coming into his own with these very unique sort of characters that we'll see later in stroman's work. Um, you know.

01:04:14.61

cbderrick

Right? right? right.

01:04:28.10

Steven Bagatourian

Even like you know with ah with tribe later. We'll start to see stroman getting more and more into drawing wacky unique looking characters and you see just a lot of the seeds for all that just on page 15 right here in alien legion he's he's an extraordinary artist at drawing different types of body types too.

01:04:38.54

cbderrick

For sure for yeah.

01:04:44.20

Steven Bagatourian

Like he can draw like like a heavier woman like the waitress here and and the left of panel one and like all of his other women characters. They're not just like skinny minnies with like tiny waists the way that most american comic artists were drawing women back then. Larry Struman from the beginning is drawing much more realistic full-figured women and it's something else that separates and makes his art just extra awesome at this time and and still.

01:05:06.16

cbderrick

Yeah, well yeah I mean it look. It reminds me when we did the thriller episode when I was telling you. It's like you know like Dennis Cowen where he was drawing to black people. You know like he was giving everyone kind of like a different kind of like.

01:05:18.71

Steven Bagatourian

Right.

01:05:25.28

cbderrick

You know like it like they felt more I know that I remember that 1 janitor guy in that 1 scene within that warehouse was I have the school bus thing and that 1 issue was like he's just he really felt like an old man and and it felt like the kind of old man like the guy who delivered the mail to like. Fantastic 4 old man like that guy but he felt like an old man like a guy like who'd worked a poor life. You know been poor all his life like it's really interesting work and and stroman does this kind of stuff here too where he's like giving you different types you said different of a body types just different I mean the.

01:05:44.46

Steven Bagatourian

I.

01:05:52.50

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

01:06:01.95

cbderrick

You know, like all it interesting The fight scene here between these people you know like you know, like the way the way that that he draws like Grimrod is different. It's a little.. It's a little chunky little stockier. You know, um, but this but but this issue again like plotwise like like they're after. This guy was his name is um, ah, ah, um, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, yes, yeah, his name is cordar cordar I mean and they go They do this like kind of adventure to like break it into was a place but he's not there.

01:06:23.21

Steven Bagatourian

Oh yeah, what is his name the bounty hunter dude was it core core doll or cord core Dan something like that. Yeah.

01:06:38.84

cbderrick

And they're there at the space stock and he's you know like okay we can get him there and and and that's when he ah tries to Confront Mike Trimrod they get the big fight I mean this looks like like this fight looks like some panels from tribe like he's's like he's kind of fully realized himself.

01:06:51.35

Steven Bagatourian

Is.

01:06:56.30

cbderrick

What he's doing like the background on it wasn't that page I mean is it page 23 now maybe I guess we page 23 where it's like that. There's that look when when Grim Rob and and and and the and the guy and cordar are facing off on face to face.

01:07:07.69

Steven Bagatourian

oh yeah oh yes yeah all the speed lines going to like that center kind of like ah circle yeah, that's like a manga that's like a manga looking panel like that looks like some manga shit which oh my god total. It's so unusual for like a Marvel.

01:07:13.19

cbderrick

Yeah, yes, it's It's kind of a sun thing from like ah who does that? Really yeah, yeah, get yeah like ah like it term a cua type of thing you know.

01:07:27.18

Steven Bagatourian

Epic Comic of that time. Yeah, you're right? That's that's really unique.

01:07:30.17

cbderrick

It's pretty crazy. You know I mean and then you know and look and then it's like you know like you. Okay, you think what's cool about this. Is you think that you think that the grimrod is gonna catch this guy but he gets. You know, incapacitated in the chase in this little gravity thing I thought that was a cool that's like that'd be so cool to see a fight like this in a gravity chamber where they got those little cables to pull themselves down I mean that's really fucking cool. So this it's up to serragar to come in. To handle the fight where he fights the guy that is you know the guy who so sweated hit him out of all his money and beat his stitchster up and they had this really awesome fight these 2 snake characters fight and it's pretty fucking. Cool. You know I mean like like they're using those tails and shit and like.

01:08:07.75

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah, yeah, yes, yeah yeah.

01:08:21.20

cbderrick

They're whooping on each other stuff like that is pretty fucking dope but he like gets the final hit and knocks this guy to fuck out and the cool thing was the whole time he was saying to to Ju a gumod and toker done. We take him dead or alive. We take him dead or alive.

01:08:38.22

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah.

01:08:40.80

cbderrick

And and and good mom was like okay what did you dad and he and he could kill him here like serger could kill this guy but he doesn't now.

01:08:44.12

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah, yeah, and the the thought balloons Chris right there the thought balloons like you like you were saying the thought balloons are the the key that sort of let us in inside like have a have a little window into what Sarah Gar's thinking at that very moment.

01:08:59.93

cbderrick

But what's really dope is at the end is like torque. We Donet stop below and he goes maybe i' might be to blackmail the captain for a couple of weeks. Let's take with ah damn choose so he needs such meary. He's simply great characters. He's always like where's my angle.

01:09:12.35

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah, yeah, is yeah, totally just vicious. Yeah yeah, you're right? It's true like you get even these little asides from all the characters in every issue. It's like everyone is in character.

01:09:19.43

cbderrick

Will my angle bring my angle that.

01:09:29.29

Steven Bagatourian

And you get just a little bit of their personality always and it's such a cool thing with a cast this huge to get these little reminders of how everyone's got their own agenda.

01:09:37.26

cbderrick

Yeah, it's crazy I I tell you? what's really cool. Um, oh these place I never noticed before on the last page of this issue. Ah the top there. There's a guy named you know the guy named Miko the is peer. You know.

01:09:49.89

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, oh yeah, yeah, that's right, That's right and he's like and he's working out by the way in that panel. Just.

01:09:57.22

cbderrick

He's got a bionic arm. Do you see his bionic arm I never noticed that before what makes this do.

01:10:05.98

Steven Bagatourian

Randomly They're all they're all working out in the background too.

01:10:06.64

cbderrick

Yeah, yeah, the dress of what makes this issue vintage amium region Dis vited in the region is's this last page where sarahgars like hey isn't so fucked up. He's like hey wasn' with my sisters you this did you waken from her coma.

01:10:12.70

Steven Bagatourian

The ending. Yeah oh it's so so fucked up it is.

01:10:25.99

cbderrick

Yet? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and did she had to speak with me. No, she didn't she wasn't with the fucking dude who whooped her ass. That's who she's still into and then and then he's like yeah well dude, you know you can't do anything because it's business and military. So we're gonna cut that off.

01:10:31.58

Steven Bagatourian

Ah, yeah.

01:10:44.64

cbderrick

And he almost cries you know, but it's so fascinating. It's just like you know what? it's like their relationship is that that like that domestic abuse relationship where it's just I think at the time when I was a kid and I read this.

01:10:44.95

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah, yeah, like.

01:10:54.33

Steven Bagatourian

Um, right.

01:11:03.34

cbderrick

I didn't understand that cause because I didn't know anybody who had been in a relationship like that there was nobody's parents that i't know the fall like that and I was too young to to to have known someone who had been in a situation like that now that I'm way older and I think about it. It's like oh yeah, like that kind of like. Protect the person who else my like that that that Codependency kind of love thing that is so volatile and explosive in that like it's like this is a more true to life ending than almost any you know and it's just but it's sad because.

01:11:32.20

Steven Bagatourian

oh yeah oh hundred percent hundred percent it's so realistic yeah. it's true it's yeah

01:11:40.89

cbderrick

And free every hitship these guys just Don this is like yeah we' gonna fuck you. We're gonna fuck you with the emotion I mean look im right now this is a Tv show date this that will be like fuck you you can't end every episode like you you can't hit the.

01:11:52.88

Steven Bagatourian

But every fucking episode can't lose. They can't always lose but not not um, not emotionally not emotionally Chris that they're most yes, right.

01:11:59.30

cbderrick

You can't no no, but no, they win no that like Netflix they win they win they win 1 another but they win on the bullshit. They the real they lose the air when you fucking time every fucking and die it's so brutal. It's so brutal. It's a fate it insane.

01:12:11.86

Steven Bagatourian

It's true. Yeah yeah, okay, we all hold on last thing just before we we leave this issue I just want to point out one other panel just if we go back to page. Ah 18

01:12:18.80

cbderrick

It's so good except well except for this next issue.

01:12:30.21

Steven Bagatourian

I know no one else cares about this but but I just want to point out page 18 look at just the the sister where she's like waking up in that moment where she has she screams he's going to kill me.

01:12:41.18

cbderrick

Um, yeah.

01:12:42.33

Steven Bagatourian

And there's like the poison gas in the room or whatever that one panel is like such an interesting departure from kind of the way that everything else is drawn that looks almost sink SinoV like s thinkovicch like bill sinkevici. Um that one panel and again it's just like this moment where I'm like oh shit Larry Stroman is going to be doing some wild shit on this book.

01:12:51.85

cbderrick

Um, yeah.

01:13:01.40

Steven Bagatourian

And he's going to have a very unique style because that that panel right? There shocked me just seeing that like oh Wow this is getting very stylized.

01:13:05.92

cbderrick

What was cool but what's Cuba that panel it is is you say that about I was kind of like sick keish' because the way's colored. You know it's got that green kind of thing in the middle I mean like so and the rest of the panel's not like that you know like she's it's like it's a.

01:13:14.20

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yes.

01:13:19.85

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah, yeah, and and totally man shout out to to the colors by the way. Bob Sharon I believe it is we haven't mentioned his name enough but there's some really great color and going on in this book throughout. There's some really great choices being made.

01:13:24.30

cbderrick

Is. Yeah yeah I think the 2.

01:13:33.44

cbderrick

Yeah I mean it's a really cool I mean I Love the fight that they have that like there's that sedative to like knock you to fuck out because you don't you don't hurt yourself. She's not really in a coma. She's in I don't know she's this I mean what she got.

01:13:46.33

Steven Bagatourian

Like she's being held. She's being held prisoner and there's some kind of gas that knocks her out and like it's fucked up is that is it is it I Guess it's I Guess that's what it is but it looks fucked up the way. It's drawn like she's like basically.

01:13:51.15

cbderrick

What much you being held with her. Um I mean you know, no, she's in a hospital right? is she in a hospital. Yeah, Well I mean it did let's look I think it's because they're trying to keep it from hurting yourself, you know? So So it's got those restraints on her or stuff like that. But it is fucked Up. You know I mean.

01:14:03.96

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, right right? I think that is what it is.

01:14:12.50

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

01:14:16.23

cbderrick

But again, okay again on page 19 though this scene with sergar comes in the comes he comes into the the apartment. You know those those £4 in the middle where he's like where he's that gonna break that's like I mean there's there's a lot of artist to do this, but it's kind of like with what I recall.

01:14:21.37

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah, great panels are that's amazing.

01:14:35.32

cbderrick

But Streman was doing like x factor or something like that. Um, just like like like ah he's a genius at doing this to like no where to place the thing to like to break the ti like to to compartmentalize the time and in like 4 or 5 panels kind of thing. Um, it's really interesting.

01:14:36.51

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yes. Yes.

01:14:49.66

Steven Bagatourian

Great call I'm so glad you pointed that out Chris because I think I didn't appreciate how brilliant that page is but now that you pointed out. It's one of those rare story storytelling moments I think for a comic book artist where if you just kind of let your eyes wash across those panels with saragar the snake dude kind of.

01:14:53.27

cbderrick

We.

01:15:07.97

Steven Bagatourian

Sort of slithering over to break through the window through these venetian blinds in like a very noir kind of like sci-fi setting. It actually just looks like realistically like the way you could imagine a snake dude's tail adjusting very quickly to break through a window it like it reads. Weirdly, realistically like the movements and the motions like they work and that that page is gorgeous again. Bob Sharon killer killing it with the coloring and the purples on that page and the purple and the pink at the top. But this page looks like it could be an x factor page like you're right? This feels much more like stroman.

01:15:27.55

cbderrick

Yeah, yeah.

01:15:33.43

cbderrick

Um, yeah.

01:15:42.79

Steven Bagatourian

Like fully formed almost where you're getting those great jagged design elements.

01:15:44.81

cbderrick

Yeah I mean that last panel where he whereerar shooting you you again his back like the way that is like the the armor looked like all that is just like yeah it's him. It's just yeah, yeah, it's it's like there. It's really awesome.

01:15:49.24

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah. Yeah, it's gorgeous. Yeah, like this is Larry Stroman this is a unique voice in american comics.

01:16:03.67

cbderrick

Yeah, so the next issue is it's called the official death of jugger grimrod. Um, again, it's stroman again. This is him same teams Zellen and stroman and emberly and Sharon and Phil Felix on the letters and.

01:16:04.99

Steven Bagatourian

Yep.

01:16:22.77

cbderrick

This is where you get this is a full this a full this is another. This is the second full story about ju of grimrod you know like there were the one earlier with um with the the Chris Warner art but this one is like here's the Assassin's guild they want him taken out because he knows so much shit I mean he's a threat to them and they these these quick panels of like oh you get killed. He gets killed the really panel. They realize there's just robots and these assassins are just practicing on how to kill him and it's pretty awesome. Um, this. This thing you know they're okay, let's go kill this dude and this is a great issue because it was I guess what was this was this would be 1 2 3 4 a page 5 right? First time we see women legionnaes.

01:17:18.12

Steven Bagatourian

Yes, and it's it's taken quite a while. It's taken perhaps too long to see to see a woman legionaiire in this book. But I'm very happy that it's finally happened.

01:17:18.69

cbderrick

Page 5 I think it's fascinating. Yeah, so this is maybe what you.

01:17:28.81

cbderrick

Yeah, because this's like I think it's interesting because like stroman you know like like there's a woman who's like her pants are down. She's pulling on her pants and this other woman's like doing some sort like calisthenics and another woman is just standing there. It's like he like like he draws women. Was such kind of like a um, he gives all their own personalities like like their physicality also affects their personality. It feels like you know and then it's a story about drug or Grimrod where he's oh these assassins.

01:17:58.49

Steven Bagatourian

Yes.

01:18:07.70

cbderrick

They're not trying to kill him up front. They're trying to torture him they have this weird as gun. This is a really cool idea for a gun I mean it's like the gun when it hits you. It makes you think about your most painful memory.

01:18:22.26

Steven Bagatourian

This is a fucked up. This is a fucked up gun Chris.

01:18:24.82

cbderrick

Thought I mean I thought that was kind of fucking like it's kind of doing it use to size fiction. It's just you but you know whatever and and you and this and it's like oh um, I go make you think about the times are you really fucked up in life and. And and we flash back and sees like this this crime this assassination that jugger did that got him caught now this middle panel but page this must be ah on on a ah was it 5 what was that I was 5 um, 8 this 1 on 18.

01:18:58.49

Steven Bagatourian

Page. Yes, yeah yeah, yep.

01:19:01.84

cbderrick

Like the more a shoty of the face you know in the head like that's like that feels like a Panda Brothers Panel from Fucking grandel.

01:19:07.72

Steven Bagatourian

Um I could kind of see that. Yeah it's it is a very. It's a shocking panel too like you literally see the whatever It was whatever that is that a set a gun a gun or a laser laser Blast Laser Blast. Yeah.

01:19:19.47

cbderrick

Still raz there I'm lazy because ah yeah, most la because you know shes shot on the on the you know of the other the you know, whatever that that one side of her face and just the skin is like just popping like chunks on 1 side but but but the side we coming out.

01:19:24.22

Steven Bagatourian

Going right through this.

01:19:32.58

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right? It's It's a very very fucked up very graphic headshot.

01:19:37.71

cbderrick

Like a horse skin is like melting off like that's like fucked up this real fuck up.

01:19:45.41

cbderrick

But um, you know and and and and then we're back and and this is like when and so he's been like kind of suffering trying to get out of this. The is the memory. You know the whole issue.

01:19:56.26

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah, and by the way like wait. Maybe let me just point out Chris that jugger makes a joke as he as he shoots and kills that woman in that gruesome way too like like the the dialogue in that panel is him laughing.

01:20:08.95

cbderrick

Oh here. Ah.

01:20:11.76

Steven Bagatourian

Just as you're as you're describing how horrific it is I'm just noticing like yeah Jugger says no Joke Juggers me name har just as he but just is crazy.

01:20:14.35

cbderrick

Um. Yeah I mean it's kind of wild. It's kind of wild. Um, but see what's interesting here is that what I don't know was happening. It's not explained about why they want him dead. Like like in this scene here like it's like that assassination. It's like it was a setup for him because those lawmen somebody in those lawmen who's supposed to who's an assassination gear you find out later supposed to kill him and doesn't it doesn't have the opportunity to and then we're back and he's back in the president's back on the obstacle he's back on the obstacle force and his mind is like beginning to unravel and like like from the memory and he's just kind of pissed off at everybody that he's around they're in their barracks. They're not happy with him. He picks a fight with someone because they're kind of laughing at him. You know, but then there's this little moment where we get. Think about you know, like was 0 odd about who he's too old. You know he's like I don't appreciate him Molly Codoing me I love it. That's such a crazy ass line. Um, but he's sleeping he gets shot again in the but the brain with the gun. And he's got another memory about when he was in prison but he was a solitary.

01:21:33.84

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah, and and by the way like the dude comes up on him and shoots him in the in the head with this crazy gun while he's sleeping here like literally asleep in the barracks or whatever and this dude fucking sneaks in and and says as far as anyone can tell I'm just another century making rounds.

01:21:41.82

cbderrick

Yeah.

01:21:52.99

Steven Bagatourian

Only my laser Rifer My my laser rifle is actually the disguised numbray by day by night you'll suffer Grimrod suffer for my brother's death only then will you deserve to die and this is like this kind of like awesome looking fucked up little lizard Alien with like ah, almost like a.

01:22:05.10

cbderrick

Um, yeah is.

01:22:12.42

Steven Bagatourian

Monocle Goggle like it's a cool look and alien.

01:22:12.81

cbderrick

Yeah, you know? Yeah yeah, you know he kind of looks like the character the creature from um, enemy mine? Yeah, but then there's another this this memory with grimro when he's in solitary confinement.

01:22:19.98

Steven Bagatourian

Oh yeah I could say that like I could totally see that. Yeah.

01:22:30.27

cbderrick

And and this is like again we were saying earlier about like how this this comic explores the neroses of people in ways that you wouldn't necessarily get like he's afraid of confined spaces.

01:22:44.69

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah.

01:22:46.40

cbderrick

And he gets nauseous and like throwing up and all this kind of craziness and it's like he can't be in that prison cell and it's like pretty awesome that this hard ass character has this type of fear that he keeps so hidden from Everybody. You know as part of the legion you know and he wakes up from this sort of like self-in or this induced ah nightmare and he goes fucking crazy and they put him in Jail and they put him in like a little holding cell prison for the legion like just say hey you're fucking up each.

01:23:13.39

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah, see.

01:23:22.38

cbderrick

Ah, to kill someone tries to kill dirge with a blade. Um, and then his brain starts to like collapse again like he's evidence Own. He's not even being shot but he's he's now in prison and it's a confined space and he can't handle it this strong man that we thought was like ah a mean as. You know Motherfucker who can't who can take anything is so Callous. So cynical but you see that he's not you see that he's got this like I don't say a soft side but there's the humanity to him is that he's afraid of confined Spaces. He's afraid of being locked Up. He's afraid of being. And and then he can then he confesses to sarahragar his soul bad store I Fucking Brook Yes, we're go come toing like yeah, oh yeah, because he's trying to like talk about how like you know I Wonder if I can like I use a kick you know kidty.

01:24:02.70

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, and saragar comes to see him Sarah Gore comes to see him there ah alone they have a moment you know and.

01:24:19.84

cbderrick

Can he like harness like grimrods you know, fucking his craziness you know and make him work for the legion and and then he finds out that he finds out for like fucking grimrods you know story like he was the prison and he killed these guys and he escaped.

01:24:26.10

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

01:24:37.56

cbderrick

And then like sigar like completely completely out of character was like I'm a hook you I'm go Do you a solid I'm gonna do you a solid I'm gonna let you out and we're gonna you know like and and we're gonna lay a trap with these these these. Assassins that we're gonna save your life and it's kind of like I think he threatened him about well you know I mean I did that you know the off you just to beat to to cure that bounty hunter. Are you gonna fuck me.

01:25:09.63

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah, yeah, he said he does say I'm begging you I've seen I've seen you've you've seen me charge into battle braver braver and anyone in the squad that ain't no lie and didn't I help you hunt down that mercenary. So yeah, so there he's like calling out the favor he did for saraga with his sister and then here's where we get the word balloons again coming in extremely ah strongly to let us know of S Saraar's ah thought process in this moment and saragar says convicts are not supposed to be enlisted legion rules and yet he's right. I wasn't supposed to go off hunting the mercenary corridar on my own and so we see this over and over again Chris that sargar the leader of the the nomad squadron here is just incredibly reflective and he's constantly interrogating himself in his own actions in a way that is. Like really compelling for this guy who's supposed to be the tough leader of all these super tough aliens and and s sagar is kind of arguing with himself like well. He's kind of like Jugger's got a point I wasn't supposed to do that other shit and then he goes on to think to himself in a thought balloon that too was against the rules and Grimrod is as good as he knows he is maybe. I could win his confidence use that to bridle him and then he says all right legionaiire suit up and that's it like sorry gars. Yeah man like I'm going to hook you up and you're going to owe me 1.

01:26:30.60

cbderrick

Um, yeah.

01:26:37.34

cbderrick

Yup, yep, and then goes and they do this little thing where they trick the trick the assassins and then he's like ah and he's like okay, cool. Let's do this and he's like who who whoa whoa sagar you let me do this on my own I'm a kill these people. I do this part of my own. He's like okay if you can handle it didn't go ahead and he goes and he fights these guys and he kills up. He kills all the assassins. But what's really dope. This is like this this is like the dope kind of storytelling. This is the dope like payoff work that you do as a writer that you really want to do. I mean this would be really cool. This was done as a show this part here at the end where where he's gonna go into the cave at night to hunt the guy down it's cool because it's like he has to go in and confront the the the ago agohobe whatever the the confined face spirit that he has.

01:27:19.60

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

01:27:25.59

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally Yes, you're right? yeah.

01:27:30.23

cbderrick

You know which is great and and and he's not really an effective fighter in this environment but he still knows that if I don't kill this guy I'm gonna I'm fucked and he fought and but he's like he's he's crawling away like he's like I can't no air to Breathe. He says in this thought balloon like. And he's like you can breathe you just your mind play truth in you you know and then he finally kind of like gets that blade out the last second you know, um and it's like again, it's like the self- doubtubt all these characters there' self-doubt rolls out like like in their thought balloons in a way that is really fucking. Cool. This humanizes everybody in a way that I think is really fascinating like it doesn't matter what your exterior thing you present you have a there's more to you that it's more realistic than most comics than most and most story time because most stuff you see this fictional because. You get to because you get to hear what they're thinking that contradicts everything they're doing physically you know, ah it always does.

01:28:30.20

Steven Bagatourian

And it always does and it and it almost always does like their their thoughts are just never what they're saying so the subtext is so real but it is just a brilliant use of the comic book medium. You know that was like we've talked about before on this show just a device that was respected for many decades in comics. That came to fall out of fashion as being like goofy and silly the word balloons you know, along with sound effects and so many of the traditional sort of comic bookie tropes that people start to think weren't mature enough but you know used properly like they are here in alien legion word balloons. Just like sound effects are just another tool in the toolbox of a cartoonist and and a comic bookmaking team like there's no reason you can't use word balloons as they're doing here to really you know brilliant effect and we should mention too that the the title of the story pays off of course at the end here. The official death of of Jugger Grimrod because we have s saragar getting on to the ah you know the the calm link or whatever with ah one of his commanders and says a legion or grimrod was just killed in an ill-fated anti-grav maneuver only today and they say okay. Please log the ah appropriate comput data at once over I was just about to sir over and out and so saragar's doing this to basically help protect Jugger and protect C Chuggger Grimrod and keep him safe if people think he's dead. You know he realizes grimrod's got other enemies. And all that and now jugger is officially dead and sargar knows that jugger is going to owe him a big ass favor.

01:30:05.83

cbderrick

Well huge favorite because he says hes he says Ill long your death that provide you with with a new computer Id so he's just not even it's like he's.

01:30:18.49

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, oh yeah, he's so corrupt all the sudden. He's like I got you.

01:30:26.30

cbderrick

It's wild. It's wild. It's so wild. It's I mean I mean this is the thing that I mean I mean ah this this is the this is one of these endings. It's like hey we fought you emotionally for the last 5 issues here. We give you like a big win here.

01:30:41.25

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, like.

01:30:43.90

cbderrick

We'll let you notice that it's a big win, a big winny emotionally. Um for all characters involved. It's really really cool. Um, this next issue is our last stroman issue at in this small run. Um, and. This is the issue that introduces Tamara who through later issues becomes a huge character I mean people love this like I remember the time everyone began to love this character because it's like oh here's a woman who's actually part of Nomad squad.

01:31:16.75

Steven Bagatourian

Right.

01:31:18.64

cbderrick

You know I as opposed to the one before they're just there at the at the at the training facility. This is interesting issue because it it zeros in on like xrod and his ageism and his fear about his I mean it's so it's kind of like we're like tickling getting 3 issues 3 issues in here. It is boom. You know it's like this a major Tony point for his character where he doesn't feel he can cut it anymore and then you know there's like and then this is a cool issue because it's all these captions. It's like is a narration in this told by Tamara.

01:31:54.74

Steven Bagatourian

Yes.

01:31:56.69

cbderrick

And while talking is talking. He's talking like you don't know who it is until your futures your few pages into the book and then she takes her helmet off and you see that classic strum and hair where it's like it's what we realized at this point you know.

01:32:00.88

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yes, oh oh man, it's gorgeous man like that when I got to these pages Chris I was so happy because I was like oh fuck. Yeah I was afraid I was afraid we might not see the fully formed kind of Larry Stroman that I wanted to see in these pages.

01:32:20.15

cbderrick

Um, no, it's totally here on M m.

01:32:20.30

Steven Bagatourian

But here it is big time like also like really right? like go like even the page right before I was going to I was going to text you this page also earlier urged a picture of it. Um page four like right before the page where where Tamara kind of reveals herself page. 4 is such a beautiful page where we just get the headshots.

01:32:37.27

cbderrick

Um, yeah.

01:32:38.72

Steven Bagatourian

Of all the legionnaires and just like a little bit about each of them like that's ah that's a page of original art that would just look gorgeous framed on a wall and it's such a great series of headshots of the crew and then the next page equally would look gorgeous framed right next to it with the debut of Tamra takes off her helmet and like you said we realize oh shit. That's who's been narrating the whole story. Who she oh my god new legionaire.

01:32:59.35

cbderrick

Yeah, and it's cool that it's like there's that little um tension between her and 0 because she's like she's the young recruiting. He's the the old guy I think it's a really cool kind of like story story. It's a story dynamic. You know that makes this this.

01:33:15.43

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah.

01:33:19.00

cbderrick

This ah ah you know and here it is what that was page 4 5 so of page 6 is that little so that that shot of her when she's listening ah of when she's being dis by him you know like that's a great reaction shot. Did.

01:33:28.36

Steven Bagatourian

Um, oh that's ah okay, that's page 7 I think on my on my yeah, yeah yeah that that reaction shot that's such a great that was a panel I wanted to call out anyways, just for the hair.

01:33:34.88

cbderrick

Said p seventy at me said I repeat 70 unit.

01:33:42.30

cbderrick

Yeah, yeah.

01:33:43.60

Steven Bagatourian

Like that great squiggly flowing Stroman hair. But you're right? It's it's her listening to herself being dissed off panel. Yeah, it's really great. It's so good.

01:33:49.77

cbderrick

Yeah, miss to I mean it's to you know it's it's like what I mean what gods in this I mean is she's such a cool character because I think was I think what happens in this issue with her see I think I was telling this before and was that like. If you were doing this as a tv show this should have to be your main character like this would be your first your first episode you know because it's like hey let's bring the new person in it's their first time in the squadron is their first time and and the way they like you know what? you know like meet everybody.

01:34:14.31

Steven Bagatourian

Oh yeah, yep.

01:34:27.98

cbderrick

First time it's us meeting the first time but is but this is like what issue 20 I don't know was 16 17 6 12 It's like it's 2 years into the book. You get your first woman. It's your first new person who's into the squad. The I mean of which I think is it's kind of crazy. Um.

01:34:32.86

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah.

01:34:44.91

Steven Bagatourian

Um, a yeah.

01:34:46.10

cbderrick

He waited this long it this somebody knew but it could be anybody knew but this person knew and she's got so much like there's so much vitality to this character like on the page. You know again on page 9 this this little little slip panel.

01:34:56.60

Steven Bagatourian

Oh yeah.

01:35:03.51

cbderrick

She hears the gun you know, um the second pat was like she hears the gun click and it's like that's something. It's a more fucking Great Stroman fucking art man like his design this pay just the panel layout is like fuck you.

01:35:04.97

Steven Bagatourian

Oh yeah, yeah, it's a great great panel.

01:35:14.85

Steven Bagatourian

Oh yeah, that's a great page man even look at that next panel Chris the the very next one where she blows the creature away and she turns around and like swings around and like fires her blaster in a way that looks very odd but dramatic like you can imagine just how quickly she makes that motion with her blaster. It's.

01:35:31.62

cbderrick

Yeah.

01:35:34.61

Steven Bagatourian

Very unusual body posture but it looks super realistic. You can feel the motion and like stroman yeah is just so great and I agree with you. Tamara's character is just such a cool looking character and we got to give stroman tremendous credit for the design of just like. What this new legionaire looks like because I'm sure it's I'm sure it's all stroman here.

01:35:53.67

cbderrick

Yeah, oh yeah, because I'm I'm sure that like well be I mean look you look I mean like he loves women because the way he draws them with such like such such so dynamic everything he does and it so he shall we said to zealots he's like Frank is like there's no women in this book. You know know and

01:36:02.30

Steven Bagatourian

Yes.

01:36:07.78

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah writer or or Allen Allen's ellenen. Its.

01:36:12.69

cbderrick

Yeah, yeah out alia can kit. Can we put someone in here because because because later on and like the dark horse issues of these like she's a huge calculator. Ah you know she's just I think she becomes more popular I think the book begins to like.

01:36:19.99

Steven Bagatourian

Earth.

01:36:26.85

cbderrick

It brings a different readership now because there's a female in it. You know, like like women might read it now and stuff like that. Um, so I mean and and and this is the cool store because it's just this clash of like the old and the old guard and the young guard.

01:36:28.47

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah.

01:36:40.36

Steven Bagatourian

Yes.

01:36:42.17

cbderrick

I mean if she does all these cool things where like I mean like she's like she like lies inerragar about you know to protect Zeroer off and looking like a from looking like a chump you know I mean and he's up here talking to football.

01:36:49.93

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, and when she when she lies to saga by the way I just want to point out that moment when she's lying to him her body posture looks so interesting that panel like um panel eleven where where she's saying like you know then Xero warned us sir. But I guess I was so eager to bring back water to my comrades. But thirsty comrades I rushed right into the woods if I hadn't caused the distraction I'm sorry but just that panel like look at just the way stroman draws her body like her hands behind her back. She's standing up extra straight like that's such a thoughtful sort of decision on stroman's part to draw her standing extra upright with her head kind of bowed.

01:37:17.21

cbderrick

Um, yeah, like.

01:37:26.83

cbderrick

Yeah.

01:37:28.45

Steven Bagatourian

Because she knows she's lying. She's lying to her commanding officer. That's just brilliant cartooning. Yeah.

01:37:31.68

cbderrick

Yeah, he's so good. He's so good with all of this. He's just so good. Um, and then she comes in and she whispers to zerood hey hey I fucking lie but blah blah I mean it's this really interesting moment. You know, um and then you know she finds hit and then he comes to find her.

01:37:44.00

Steven Bagatourian

For her.

01:37:51.18

cbderrick

And he explains about his fucked up life. You know she's like no no, you're actually cool. You give us ah this whole sense of stuff to me. That's maybe yeah, you're an inspiration to us you know and then she explains her life How she like she went on that like that's that ah that travel thing where she was putting in in like the. And like the Kraogenic sleep and missed all her family. You know and and so she's like ah ah, another character who's joined the lesion because her family ties are Fucked. She has no more family ties and it's just kind of interesting. Story point to me I mean I mean it follows along the way they are like in a way I think as see was really cool about this character too. Me just is I noticed it more with her almost like than than almost for fucking anybody else she has white eyes.

01:38:40.31

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yes, she does. There's like there's no pupils to her eyes. They're just they're all white and um and Stroman makes really dramatic use of that in ah in some of these panels here.

01:38:52.46

cbderrick

Yeah I mean like that with other characters like with Zrod and maybe with like sarahragar but is different with her.. It's like the way that he he does it with her I mean because ah her face is so soft in a lot of these images the way it's drawn you know and then did the white eyes feels like it's.. It's obviously like she's looking straight through you. You know it's pretty cool I was a cooler technique on whens used on her than with these these other people. Um I think the rest of it is more kind of battle. You know they're fighting these like savages you've gotten these weapons and.

01:39:17.61

Steven Bagatourian

Yes.

01:39:28.78

cbderrick

You know there's a legionaire who got kidnapped I guess is dead but they're trying to figure that out and there's just big fight just this massive massive battle hand to hand battle gun battle this pretty fucking brutal one of these kind of like you know like braveheart type of battles and shit like that.

01:39:46.42

Steven Bagatourian

Who.

01:39:48.44

cbderrick

Um, but it kind of fruits ited that and then we get a great moment with with with with Tamara's like you know it's cool how it's like she's super strong because she's from that planet with like the the different gravity you know so she's able to like fight better I thought that was a cool I think that's a cool touch to say oh.

01:39:59.17

Steven Bagatourian

Who the.

01:40:06.67

cbderrick

Yes, she's a woman but she's stronger than everyone else because of that you know when it kind of like it kind of it doesn't give her a superpower per se but it is a superpower and it's pretty cool. Um I mean if she's like so dynamic I mean like this page like like ah these 2 pages. She's fighting.

01:40:08.83

Steven Bagatourian

Yes.

01:40:23.83

cbderrick

Like some shit that like you'd see in like a master of Kung fu like it's so kind of dynamic with all the kind of fighting but it's got that kind of like typical kind of like Stroman style of panel design and like the page design for panels and what's the compositions in the panels. He's just fucking really dope.

01:40:27.16

Steven Bagatourian

Yes.

01:40:40.71

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

01:40:42.38

cbderrick

You know like this one where she's like flipping. It's like do like I don't know I I mean it's kind of a shame what happened to him as a as a as a as a a comic artist is he's so good like he's so fucking good with like with the dynamics with the foreshortening with like.

01:40:56.30

Steven Bagatourian

He's He's incredible.

01:41:01.72

cbderrick

I mean I mean like you imagine if he was doing like a like a bat woman or something like that you know be like a modernrate that I mean yeah, it's too bad.

01:41:03.57

Steven Bagatourian

oh oh man yeah it's it's just it's another story like we talked about with Trevor Von Eden of one of these artists who is just so brilliant in the 80 s like really like 1 of the greatest artists. In mainstream comics and it's just it's heartbreaking that someone who's that incredibly good. Just disappears from comics. Ah for a shockingly long period and I know Larry like left the industry and went off and. And did other things I think for over a decade. Maybe 1015 years it was quite a while and I think it was a huge loss to comics because Larry Strumman was a phenomenal artist and is a phenomenal artist and but the work he was doing was just ah.

01:41:54.19

cbderrick

Yeah, when you would be I think this I think you told books a tribe wasn't tribe like what these books is like a million copies like the.

01:41:55.47

Steven Bagatourian

You know, extraordinary on on everything he did back then Alien Legion X factor. All of it.

01:42:03.22

Steven Bagatourian

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, tribes hold like like literally like I think it was like we should look it up but I think it was like ah one of those massive sellers from image comics and it's just shocking I think it was you know it was sold. Ah, you know I'll look it up right now. But I think it sold an insane amount of Copies. And then for whatever reasons you know it didn't really didn't really last very long tribe unfortunately did not have a very long run I think it only did 1 or 2 issues at at image.

01:42:28.23

cbderrick

Yeah, did. But but I mean ah but I'm but I'm wondering why I actually want to look this up. Ah ah I don't know why. I Bet. There's this backstory to what happened with tribe that that we don't know about it's not it has to be because there's other books that image put out that didn't do as well that lasted as long. You know that more but wait.

01:42:47.40

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

01:42:54.25

Steven Bagatourian

Oh yeah, there has to be a story there and I don't I don't remember what that story is if I've heard it before you know? Yeah Todd Todd Johnson I believe was his co-creator on on tribe they they may have they were.

01:43:02.80

cbderrick

Didn't he like write it with someone.

01:43:08.21

cbderrick

Do they have a falling out I bet I mean.

01:43:13.47

Steven Bagatourian

They were friends. They were good friends I believe and I don't know I remember hearing um Larry Stroman give a talk at like a panel or something that was rebroadcast on a podcast I heard and yeah, he talked about when he left the industry. He worked for a time as a security guard.

01:43:14.24

cbderrick

You can remember you were telling me that he was like ah he was like a security guard for like a long time or some shit we.

01:43:32.70

Steven Bagatourian

And I mean to me That's just so tragic because again, this is a guy who's one of the fucking greatest comics artists of his era at that time leaving comics for whatever reasons and then working as a security guard which you know is heartbreaking to me just as a comics fan and and a huge lyris drumman fan because I would have loved to add you know more stroman art during that period. But he said that at one point he had a guy pull a gun on him and that that was one of those moments where where he thought to himself like okay what am I doing like you know, maybe maybe this isn't the right job for me. Maybe I do need to get back to art or whatever it was but that that was kind of ah a flashpoint for him if I if I recall correctly.

01:44:08.59

cbderrick

Um, oh oh he was seeing this. It's a security guard This definite point ofagon.

01:44:12.29

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah, yeah, he yeah he was saying at that at that job someone pulled a gun on him at one point I don't know if it was the first time or the last time but that he had that thought of you know, just like shit. Maybe this isn't this isn't the job for me either and you know he has come back to comics to to an extent and you know he's. Definitely been been drawing again and he's done some independent work and he's very active on Facebook and I know he does a lot of commission work and he's still a phenomenal artist. He's just he's an amazing talent.

01:44:37.42

cbderrick

See you I mean like to me to me I think what I think the thing that like I would surmise happened is don't know it's just me speculating. He's working for Marvel and Dc. This stuff doing x factor and things like that he leaves to go with the image guys to do the image stuff that pisses off the powers of b and Marvel in Dc and.

01:45:02.70

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah. I mean I wouldn't I wouldn't doubt that I wouldn't I wouldn't doubt that at all.

01:45:13.13

cbderrick

And that he doesn't get to work anymore because at that time you know like it's such as the industry was I mean those people who were who were in charge then the powers that be then were ah probably I hate to say it I'm sure they're more racist than I mean you know whatever I mean that I probably not not any more racist than what they are now. But.

01:45:26.30

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

01:45:32.45

cbderrick

Well maybe that's not true. But I mean you know that's my own kind of theory but I would assume that like he got I'm I'm assumed that he couldn't stay in the game because if he couldn't get work at Marvel on Dc then where does he work and then.

01:45:45.35

Steven Bagatourian

well well what that's that's the weird thing though because tribe tribe to edge just looked it up tribe sold over 1000000 copies and it stands ah as the the bests sellingling african-american comic book from african-american creators of all time. So the best selling comic ever from black comic creators. Ah, sold over a million copies. So it is an open question I guess yeah for sure. Maybe he's talked about it I'm sure elsewhere. But yeah, why not keep going with tribe even if Marvel in Dc you know would not have welcomed him back at that moment because yeah, obviously that's that's a huge success.

01:46:16.12

cbderrick

Well could if you think I mean I mean look you look we know from the Rob Ifeld podcast and here of you born or something like that that those issues that maybe some other issues the way that image was set up. They. Were making you pay um like there was some kind of thing that he was saying that topic far was kind us it something to do but the way Todd was setting up the setting up the company to to that that like they like you to kick in a certain amount of money you know based upon. Like the number of books you did you know.

01:46:54.20

Steven Bagatourian

Oh oh yeah, I think that's right, yeah because Rob Rob was complaining about that because it wasn't fair because Rob was publishing so many books. Yeah, it was like you had to kick in like you know 5 grand or 4 grand to image central for every book you published and because Rob through extreme was publishing like you know, fucking 16 different books. Like he was like hey well that's not fair I'm having a fucking put like whatever it is you know fifty sixty grand to image central 40 grand whatever the fuck and you know todd's only having to pay for grand a month because he's publishing one book and I think that might have been part of the part of the reason why rob ultimately wanted to leave and set up. You know.

01:47:28.37

cbderrick

Um, or totally 2 years too but um um, um,

01:47:31.64

Steven Bagatourian

Maximum maximum press do his own thing but but I mean shit St Drumman and Johnson were just doing one book though and it was sold over a million copies like yeah, we we should. We should find that story.

01:47:37.89

cbderrick

But but um I'm just wondering if there was something financial about why that book didn't last for them because here here's the thing There's no book that like or was there like production I don't know what it was but I remember I remember loving that book.

01:47:51.60

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah, he.

01:47:54.35

cbderrick

First couple issues and then I maybe but see that was back in the time when a lot of those image books weren't being able to be published on ah on like a consistent schedule. There'd be these long delays between like wetworks 1 and like tuber like 2 years some shit like that I think there was Pja has some little family problem.

01:48:03.29

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

01:48:13.84

cbderrick

But but all those image books had a bad reputation on like the delivery you know and like the consistent like like like every month you're going to get a book and I'm just I something might be the thing with him you know.

01:48:26.91

Steven Bagatourian

Well, here's okay, here's something I just found because I'm doing research as we're talking here because I am baffled by this because selling over a million copies of a comic at that time an image or whenever like that's a huge financial windfall for the creators. Right? Like you can imagine Chris like you know like that's a massive financial windfall. That's many many hundreds of thousands of dollars so here's a blog that says after some digging I found an old forum discussion on Cbr about this very subject of why tribe was canceled from the mouth of 1 of images founders Eric Larson we're told basically that it was it was because the thing was delayed beyond all high heaven. Even the first issue was quote months late and the issue too was quote nowhere in sight tribe wasn't being picked on it was cut along with some other image titles. Such as trencher and stupid which are 2 books I've never heard of was as says the blogger but trenncher was obviously Keith given um and I think stupid was a maybe is that a parody book they're doing Hillary Hillary Barta or was that spitten image I don't remember um, anyways, ah, but ah so those are deta atta.

01:49:24.61

cbderrick

Yeah, yeah.

01:49:38.49

Steven Bagatourian

So clearly image had no ill will toward tribe but they were just discouraged about how the darn things seemed to be made so slowly. Okay, well, that's the story at least maybe coming from Eric Larson who knows if that's really the whole story I would love to hear what Larry Stroman's take what Todd Johnson's take was I'm sure they have their own reasons. Why. Things went south and image. But yeah man that would ah that would be fascinating to find out but it's very tragic because I mean stroman's work was just so so brilliant I mean it's just it's heartbreaking how great it was.

01:50:00.87

cbderrick

Snowbook ball.

01:50:06.48

cbderrick

Um, I mean I think that I know those books relate I know that first book was delayed like six months or something like that I know that second book like was over is probably like I mean I you know the book was I mean like I said it was like something where it's like. I think like 2 issues came out in like eighteen months or a year or something like that and that's just not what you can do to to stay an audience I mean the thing is you know he knows how to do a monthly book or at least a bi monthly book. No he was done x factor so he knows what it needs to do yeah.

01:50:27.18

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah.

01:50:38.29

Steven Bagatourian

He he did x factorctor. He did a good run on xfa and his x factor looked amazing like it's extraordinary looking if you please anybody anybody listening to this look up those Larry Stroman x factor images they're stunning

01:50:45.29

cbderrick

Yeah, so it's like him that what wasn' it like Peter wasn't Peter David like writing write writing nose. Yeah so it was like I mean so he knew how to do a monthly book. I don't know what the deal is about why the delay was I mean but ah, but also you know that it's like look those image books you well at least the way it is now I'm not sure how it was then but people weren't paying you up front right? There's no page rate. It was like.

01:51:15.41

Steven Bagatourian

Um, oh yeah, they they never. They never do hardly.

01:51:19.95

cbderrick

Yeah, so it was one of those things where it's like could he afford to do the book.

01:51:22.91

Steven Bagatourian

After that first issue I mean shit I would hope so I know it takes a while to get the money coming in and you don't get it like the next day but still I mean like if you know you got that kind of windfall in the pipeline I mean it's just I would imagine I mean hey it's real life you and I know from screenwriting and from just life. That life happens sometimes and even if it's like your biggest job opportunity windfall financially, whatever you know if your real life has personal stuff that's blowing up. It doesn't matter. You know, somebody might have died There could have been health issues like I don't I don't want to speculate. But obviously there's a million reasons why someone blows deadlines and you and I are both.

01:51:55.35

cbderrick

Um, yeah, look.

01:51:59.66

Steven Bagatourian

You know, well acquainted with a lot of those reasons. Yeah so I mean.

01:52:01.92

cbderrick

Yeah, you know, no, you're right? I yeah I mean we totally are I mean like I don't know I like I want to look into that because I don't I mean I looking back at this work I just was like particularly this tomorrow issue was like you forget how exciting. He made the pages look you just forget and it's just like his skill at like is cartooning and this sequential storytelling and me like there's people who can't do this who like ah anywhere're near this level and there's like great kind of like facial expression like you said that. Scene with tomorrow's like standing like straight up. It's like the body language choices and like his ability to like tell the story visually is so powerful and for him to fall off like he did is is it's a mystery that. And love to know I love to know more about I would love love know more about it. But I don't know if if we ever get to if we ever get the the the get to find out I don't know I mean the rest of this issue is pretty fucking amazing. It's like is Xero gets convinced by tomorrow that he's not too old and he goes. Fucking berserk and he saves the day he kills all the fucking creatures and there's this great fucking just just 2 page kind of splash panel where it's like he's like screaming like his whatever his mouth is all big and then next page is like they're all dead. It's like that's just awesome art. Awesome level of like command of the craft and storytelling and just all the shit you want that you want a comic artist to do that. You want a book to do and it's a cathartic moment in the story for the character that like he not believes in himself in a way that he hasn't in like the has been building for. 3 or 4 issues now that he's not skilled. He's not capable and he goes no no I fucking am I am able to do this still and he proves it and it's just like I don't know it's masterful all this is masterful I don't know I don't know I'm curious that I'm curious to know what the fuck happened.

01:54:04.19

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah. Yeah yeah, I mean maybe if we're lucky, we'll get Larry Struman come on the show and we could talk to him about all of this because he is ah absolutely one of 1 of the greats and I would think it'd be amazing to hear his his story. You know directly coming from him.

01:54:10.66

cbderrick

This guy.

01:54:15.83

cbderrick

Um, but but you know what you know where I. For some reason I think he did art on the the um, the dark Horse issues.

01:54:33.40

Steven Bagatourian

yeah yeah I think you're right I think he has returned to alien legion intermittently over the years as as have you know siroko here and there and certainly Carl Potts has continued to be involved. It's his baby. Um, but I think you're right st dromeman I think has dipped in and out of the alien.

01:54:40.15

cbderrick

Um, yeah.

01:54:50.44

cbderrick

Yeah, yeah, be yeah goes I think those issues those um, ah those ones are like those double sized like 48 page ones or something like that that were that were published at dark course like um I remember.

01:54:50.75

Steven Bagatourian

Legion Universe and.

01:55:09.50

cbderrick

Covers of those I remember as Strumman did that art like it's on baxter paper and shit like that and it's kind of like Square Bound. It's like it was I thought some of his best stuff because of like the printing process back then like you always could get better colors and stuff and do that you know like those square-bound baster paper books that um. You know there wasn't obviously on Newsprint you know they didn't have the paper. They used now. Whatever kind of some sort of glossier gassier paper now. Um, yeah I don't know I mean so that kind of wraps up our our our looking at the issues of Alien Legion. Um.

01:55:42.41

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah, you know what man looking at these Stroman X Factor images here like just as we're talking about Stroman I am just like gobsmacked again by how brilliant this guy was and and him inking himself which he does on some of these X factor Promotional images is just. Gorgeous like it's really just stunning stunning work and it's so sharp and the design is so Crazy. You know we may have to look at some of this x-factor run at some point on our show because it would be just cool to to chart the progression of his style because ah, because for me, he gets even more stylized when he hits x-factor.

01:56:17.44

cbderrick

Yeah, oh for sure I mean because because like who's the team in that that that's not the it's not the first x-factor team.

01:56:23.98

Steven Bagatourian

No, no, not at all. It's like that crazy looking character strong guy that dude I think his name's guido but he's like super oversized and then I think you have a Polaris and you have quicksilver and I think is it like Ronnie Wolf wolf Spain kind of the crazy werewolf looking girl and.

01:56:30.81

cbderrick

Yeah.

01:56:38.84

cbderrick

Oh yeah, yeah yeah from from from yeah from. Ah.

01:56:42.14

Steven Bagatourian

St. Drman's yeah and strum's drawn drawn the hell out of her fur I mean and the way draws like I think it's Polaris's hair and then I think Wolf's Spain's fur I mean he is just incredible at drawing fur hair anything of that sort like it's just it's insane. Um, and I think is it. I don't know I don't remember I read this a million years ago if that's like multiple man who has the trench coat there I don't I don't even know who the fuck what we'll find out Jamie Madro jam drops right? right? Okay, so yeah, yeah, we should ah we should look at this at some point because I just I can't get enough with Larry St Drummond man the guys the guys.

01:57:04.15

cbderrick

um oh yeah Yeah it's um um Jamie Madrights yeah madrick yeah

01:57:16.87

cbderrick

Like what like like like what is that like is that 87 is that something the book came out.

01:57:17.79

Steven Bagatourian

Extraordinary um, that's a good guess ah 87 is a good guess. Let me check the Larry Stroman Wikipedia I think it's that sounds that sounds like a.

01:57:29.22

cbderrick

I think it's eating 7 because because yeah again because I think he went to that after this this legion run he did you know.

01:57:38.13

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah I think he did I think that was the next major run he did um, let's see ah tut to tut to 87 to 90? um 8 alien legion and then and Kenny x-men x factor. Okay x factor. He joined Peter David regular artist from issue 71 to 81? Um, okay, it doesn't say we're that hello hold on let me look up x factor 71 now we have to find out the exact date x factor 71 2 2 2.

01:58:17.52

cbderrick

I mean but it's possible that he could but do any Leggi act for because any region was was a bimonthly book.

01:58:23.25

Steven Bagatourian

Okay, actually you know x-factor is way later than we thought it's not till 91 yeah it's October ninety one so he was on aen legion for a minute and I think he did some other stuff like some fill-ins on x-men and and some other stuff so he was really honing his his craft and developing his style and then I think it was.

01:58:27.34

cbderrick

Wow.

01:58:42.42

Steven Bagatourian

Believe you went straight from x-factor to to image with the tribe launch.

01:58:44.45

cbderrick

New tribe. Yeah, because because see here's the thing they'll write. But but if he's book on if he's working on xbooks in like the late age early 90 s like those books are selling like 3 40500000 copies a month like there's no way he wasn't getting money for our good money food.

01:58:52.14

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

01:58:58.94

Steven Bagatourian

He had to be getting money I don't think x factor x factor I don't think was selling at 4 or 500000 but you're right, it was still. It was probably selling 10000 to two hundred thousand. It was still a substantial amount of copies I would guess at that time in comics.

01:59:12.65

cbderrick

Um, yeah.

01:59:14.42

Steven Bagatourian

Um, he also I forgot Larry Stroman Drew some of ah dark stars. The Dc book that ah Travis charrat um, also Drew early issues of so that's that's a crazy thing for Larry Stroman and Travis Charray 2 of the most ah interesting artists of that era to both draw.

01:59:28.95

cbderrick

Fucking Travis Charra he's an artist who so dope that the fact that he he only did ah ah a little bit of work I mean his style doesn't doesn't promote a monthly book obviously but the fact that the fact that he wouldn't just do maybe like him.

01:59:32.44

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

01:59:36.13

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, no, no to say the least? yeah.

01:59:46.62

cbderrick

Like a miniseries every other year or like a graphic novel every once know isn't the.

01:59:48.52

Steven Bagatourian

He he he is though he's doing them in Europe he's doing european stuff like he's he's gotten sucked into the ah allla Aleandro Yoderrowski ah universe of like I think he's been drawn like a meta barons book. Yeah.

01:59:59.74

cbderrick

But you know what I but but but you know I never see I mean I would love to his art is so good. Um I mean I remember there was a there was a um so wildcats he did that was just like fucking brilliant and.

02:00:10.35

Steven Bagatourian

Oh yeah, oh oh amazing, amazing. He did an incredible run with Allan Moore on Wildcats and then he did the wildcat's x-men crossover as well. Which was which was wildly good to made no pun intended. It was just fucking. It was dope. It was dope.

02:00:20.10

cbderrick

Yeah, yeah, oh and and you know what there was somebody who there was a backup in that x-men I mean in that wildcats I think that I think that James Robinson was

02:00:38.30

Steven Bagatourian

Is there.

02:00:39.26

cbderrick

Writing it was some weird little story with some artist. Oh I forget what this is called now. But as this artist who only did that backup work and he's 1 my favorite artists this is little backup stores like 2 3 issues and it didn't even complete. It's like some weird kind of like pulp kind of story I need to look up what that is. Ah, we'll talk about it next time. Um, but yeah, yeah, we got a lot talk about still so I guess that's gonna wrap up our extra long episode on on on awe published by epic comics.

02:01:12.40

Steven Bagatourian

on on Chris's favorite comic ever. Yeah.

02:01:17.23

cbderrick

Yeah, favorite comic I mean because I mean look I mean the thing is 16 issues of this and it's not they're not 30 they're 32 page issues. They're not 22. They're 30 or 32 page issues. So it's it's a lot of storytelling. Um the fantastic way that it blends like. Pathos with the politics and the the war story is I think unparalleled and what I love about it is this someone was telling me this one time and I totally believe it is that you can tell. Every type of story. You want to tell in a war story every genre or it's it's and I was I was like what do you mean What do you mean? and as you go back to the history of war films. Almost everything you think of war comedy just look.

02:01:56.67

Steven Bagatourian

That that that is fascinating. That's a fascinating statement.

02:02:13.00

cbderrick

Like there's even like this one called I was a male war bride with Kerry Grant which was a rom com war movie. You have movies like stripes which are straight up or straight up comedies. Yeah movie like say Hogan's heroes you've got like.

02:02:23.28

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, or or ah fucking Hogan's heroes in the pow camp.

02:02:30.50

cbderrick

Saving private Ryan which is the hardcore hardcore type of thing. So it's interesting that this the reason does this because it ah it allows these guys to tell a lot of stories about a lot of people about the human condition in a situation that is always life or death and.

02:02:45.88

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah.

02:02:48.62

cbderrick

Think that's what's really cool about war stories. This is really cool about the Indian legion. Yeah.

02:02:52.80

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, that is a brilliant observation. Um I Think that's a really sharp and succinct way to put it and yeah it did. It did also strike me like while we were reading this that there is something about just the idea of this particular war story like you say where it's like. Stakes are so high every single time out that it's like the ultimate metaphor for life. You know like it's like we're all going through our daily lives. We've got our little family quote unquote of people that we bring together around us our our squadron our our Nomad Squadron if you will of all the fucking freaks that we. Gather as our friends in life. You know with our own fucked up families that we do or don't want to have in our lives and so you know life as war like feels probably pretty accurate metaphorically for a lot of people for everyone just kind of struggling with life Period. You know what I mean and so yeah, so it's like this is just like it's a hyper compressed metaphor.

02:03:41.11

cbderrick

That's true. It's a good point. Very good point.

02:03:46.12

Steven Bagatourian

But I think resonates on a really deep level with everyone who feels like whether it's fucking money or whether it's your health whether it's your relationship your family your job like so much of fucking life in America or anywhere it does feel like you're at fucking war every day and you got so much stress and you don't know when you're going to die. You don't know when you're going to die and you got friends and family who do die around you and sometimes people die suddenly and sometimes people are sick and people might you know be close to death and you don't know what's happening and so like this life that we're all living has this unpredictable element of war. It's just that we're all kind of in a slow motion war sort of stretched out over a long period of time. But we still you know what? I mean like we but we've got that uncertainty still that hovers like it's that sort of damocles above all of our heads. We're all just kind of wondering am I gonna live that much longer am are my loved ones gonna live am I gonna get any of my hopes and dreams that I'm still thinking about to actually come true or am I going to be like tori montro suddenly and I catch a bullet on a day I don't expect it and my.

02:04:21.35

cbderrick

It's a great point.

02:04:39.98

Steven Bagatourian

My last thoughts are like oh fuck now now no shit I had so much to do no and I was going to do that other thing ah fuck you know like I mean that's the thing we're all kind of we're all in the Alien Legion chris.

02:04:40.68

cbderrick

Um, yeah, yeah.

02:04:53.59

cbderrick

It's awesome. It's awesome. Well, that's a good way to end our our episode. Thank you for listening. We will be back next week hopefully with another issue another issue another episode about a comic that we haven't decided yet. But it will be something that will be exciting and thank you for listening and we will see you guys soon.

02:05:13.55

Steven Bagatourian

Yep. Yeah, Thanks everybody.