STEVEN: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of COMICS ROT YOUR BRAIN! …the show where professional screenwriters talk about the comic books that we love ...mostly from the '80s. And today, we have an amazing book to discuss. Oh, first of all, I'm Steven Bagatourian, and I'm so excited about the discussion we had regarding this particular completely batshit-insane comic. And my co-host here is Chris.

CHRIS: Hey, I'm Chris Derrick, and today, we'll be talking about SKREEMER, a book that DC put out in 1989. Wild, crazy book. And for those of you who haven't read it, here's a quick synopsis: The story is set 38 years after the fall of civilization, in New York. The central character is Vito Skreemer, an imposing crime kingpin in the age when criminal warlords are nearly obsolete. His story is narrated by Peter Finnegan as he looks back on both Vito's life and how it intersects with the lives of the Finnegan Family, contrasting the former's rise to power with the latter's struggle to survive. 

This book is written by Peter Milligan, art is by Brett Ewins and Steve Dillon, colorist is Tom Ziuko, the letterer is Tom Frame, assistant editor is Art Young, and the editor is Karen Berger. Now, in [this] episode, I mistakenly refer to the editor as Shelly [Roeberg] Bond.

So, just a quick recap, if you haven't read this book: This is a gangster story set in a post-apocalyptic United States. It's kinda like set in the world of ROBOCOP but pushed a little further. And I think that's what's really crazy about this book. I can't believe this book, like, actually came out [laughter] when it did—

STEVEN: This book, it's bananas.

CHRIS: —Yeah, y'know. So the story's about this guy… this guy his name is Vito Skreemer — he is a gang lord. And it's told in this weird kind of third-person narration …so Skreemer's not even telling his own story. No, it's actually a first-person narration by someone who's not even in the story.

STEVEN: Right. It's actually pretty wild. And it reminded me a little bit of SAGA, just in terms of the narration, kind of the way that SAGA is being narrated by the daughter of Alana and Marko, and is kinda looking back on… telling her parents' story or whatever. And of course, this story predated SAGA by quite a bit, by many decades. But that was the only comic that I instantly thought of that it reminded me of. 

Yeah, just to say here at the outset that I agree with you 100% — this story is f'ing wild. And it's extremely original. It's a very original story that just does not feel like anything else. It's a post-apocalyptic gangster story, as you've said. It's also an incredibly cerebral, yet emotional and, like, existential story that just deals with so many motifs and metaphors. 

And I just can't even think of anything like this that mashes up James Joyce and FINNEGAN'S WAKE with a gangster story. And you've got this incredibly bizarre construction of the narrative that is being told by this character who's not even in the story and is recounting this tale; you're not quite sure who's even telling it, at first. And then we jump around in time in a way that—

CHRIS: A lot.

STEVEN: —so much! So much. And it's f'ing wild, I can't even think of another comic book story that does what Pete Milligan and Brett Ewins and Steve Dillon are doing here, in terms of the chronology, and how incredibly quickly and liberally they're jumping around in time, because you're just jumping perspective and shifting just decades at a time, constantly, throughout the story, back-and-forth, back-and-forth, and it's kind of disorienting at first. But it does hold together. And it works in a really interesting way. 

And he's always doing… Milligan's always doing these really interesting transitions, just through dialogue, often, where, y' know, a phrase that somebody's saying connects with a phrase that another character said 30 years before, or 30 years after, and—

CHRIS: I thought that was genius. I thought that was genius. It's something… it's one of those things that would be like a motif in a movie where somebody looked at something, and it was a it would be like a close-up, and then, you know, you look at that, and then the cut would be… we're looking at that, and then we pan off, and we see we're like 30 years in the past — something that movies can do visually, and that they can do, you know, with audio, too, but I think that the type of kind of transitions that this is doing, it would be hard to… I mean, look, you could do it in a movie if you weren't doing an American film. I think that the Europeans or the East Asians could do this, but Americans would be… I think the studio executives would not understand what you're trying to do. And that's what's crazy about this story. This is, again… we talk about this a lot, you know, not as podcast [yet], but stuff that and we probably will, later on, but things that we talk about a lot is… There's stuff that comics can do that no other kind of like storytelling medium can do. 

I mean, I think one thing that you said… what I loved about this is the James Joyce FINNEGAN'S WAKE kind of motif that kind of, like, is the grounding piece of this entire story. …Like I told you, I was like 13, 14 when I read this, and I was like— I remember the thing that shocked me the most about this was how just utterly violent it was… and still is [by today's standards]. I mean, it's crazy… This is like 1989, so it's 30-some years ago, 33 years ago, it was longer than 33 years! Almost something like that. yeah that's right yeah yeah …And the violence is still shocking now. And after all the stuff we've seen in movies, TV, and in comics, and I just… That's what stuck with me the most about this book, and that's why I want to talk to you about it, because that's what I remember the most about [it]. I don't remember so much of this… the narrative stuff that that Dillon is — I mean, that Milligan is -- doing at the time.

You know, like.. I didn't know who the hell James Joyce was when I was reading this, you know. Yeah, of course. Honestly, I feel bad because I've never read any of [Joyce's] work, and I've always wanted to attempt to read it. Like ULYSSES. I remember I was supposed to read DUBLINERS in college, and I never did. But I feel like I want to read [James Joyce's] work because, you know, this is similar to what we had talked about in our episode about NEXUS is that you… And this is what's interesting about non-superhero comics is that they're able to reference literature in a way that would be so, I think, inappropriate in a superhero comic. Yeah. But it makes reading this so much more enjoyable, particularly now, as an older reader, because I get what he's doing now. 

Granted, it says on the cover "Suggested For Mature Readers," because this is prior to Vertigo. This is, what, four years before Vertigo launched, but like we were saying offline, it's the team that launched Vertigo… It's edited by Karen Berger, and assistant editor is Shelly Roeberg… Who does she marry? She married that artist… Shelly Bond. Shelly Bond later on. Yeah Phil Bond, the artist, Yeah Philip Bond ...So it's interesting to see you know Was this a book...? I'm just wondering like did Karen Berger have an idea if she wanted to launch Vertigo or something or some sort of like mature line at DC, because maybe she saw some success with Epic at Marvel, and was like: How can DC do something like that? And she probably… I wonder if she had to convince, you know, Jenette Kahn. I know she had to convince Jenette Kahn. I don't think because Jenette Kahn, you know, was responsible for like WATCHMEN and stuff like that but I just wondered... to have an imprint that was solely doing stuff that was non-superhero stuff...

And I think that's the difference between again like WATCHMEN and DARK KNIGHT is that that's not that superhero stuff that's twisted in this lens and this is totally not and it's totally not it's I mean it's it's just like you know... The brutality in this book you know doesn't overwhelm the poetics of the story and I think that's really fascinating I think that the art is really really strong too for what it's trying to what the book is trying to convey about you know consequences of your actions because I think it's interesting that that guy the guy Finnegan whose grandson is telling the story when you meet that guy and what he what he's going through and the choices he has to make just to survive in this world that is collapsing I mean they I mean look look he breaks it all down and he gives you no dates he just calls it "after The Fall," which is just like okay what that's wild it's you know what funny if you remember I was writing that one that one screenplay I brought into our writers group called resonance and I kept saying hey this is 25 years after the fall you know because I forgot about that you know because I was as as my little like setup because I didn't want to set a date for it and I and I and I'm just wondering if subconsciously I remembered that he did it in this book and it's such a really wild way to start telling a story because yeah as a kid and he's it's eight years after the fall and then you meet him like when he's at the height of his powers and it's like 308 years after the fall and it's just it's it's something that I I kind of love as a reader because it keeps me engaged I gotta keep like I I can't just like like read this kind of half-ass you know and it's it's something that makes it a that you keep reading it and there's some stuff that makes you want to turn away because of how violent it is but it's the characters the characters are well well-drawn they're well-created they're well I mean and even though SKREEMER is a cipher and it's… We won't spoil what happens in the final issue it explains where you know like his whole kind of like rationale for how he behaves I think this was interesting, too So like how do you look at SKREEMER as Vito as a character because he's he's a title character but he's not really But he's not explored really That's a fascinating point Now that's actually interesting that you call him a cipher because I hadn't thought about that so directly but I think that's totally accurate — He is very much a cipher up until the very last issue where he reveals his motivations and kind of what's been going on in his inner life yeah it's I think his character is fascinating And I want to back up for a second because I think we started to do to do the summary and we should probably just go through the summary of the story and then you know it's hard because I think we're always very excited to dive into the discussion but just for the benefit of anyone who hasn't read SKREEMER this is a completely insane post-apocalyptic gangster story set in America I also really want to take a moment to celebrate the production value and the design of this comic and like you know the actual design for this book is really ahead of its time and looks fantastic like it just really it pops and every one of the covers are terrific they the covers have these incredibly gaudy garish almost-neon colors The first issue in particular is highly iconic-looking to me it's a cover that really burned into my mind And whoever designed the logo and just the whole look of the book I think they really put together a hell of a package it's a incredible-looking comic to me like this is pretty close to my ideal in my mind of what I think of is like pop-comics like comics that really feel like almost magical cultural artifacts that just have this incredible power to them and then you get into the story and there's something really just so incredibly provocative about every bit of it and I agree with you Chris there are a lot of moments where I kind of had to look away or take a take a break after reading parts of SKREEMER because it does get so intense the violence is highly shocking still the sexual situations are highly shocking and there is so much in this book that I feel like …it would virtually certainly not be published today And I cannot imagine DC Comics and Warner Brothers their parent company ever publishing something that pushed up to the very edge of everything and beyond the way that SKREEMER does So having said all that this post-apocalyptic story set in America 'after The Fall" as you say there's been some kind of crazy event where society has splintered everything's gone horribly wrong and these gangs have taken over And the gangs are run by leaders that are referred to as Presidents so there are multiple Presidents yeah which is really cool multiple Presidents were kind of running things and as we pick up we we realize that these these Presidents have sort of these Dark Angels they call them who work for them as like their main killers or their "main muscle" so to speak And those people are referred to as Skreemers And so in this particular story we're following with Vito Skreemer And he's our you know our title character, our eponymous character, and we're in the first issue we meet him and there's so many different story lines going on it's a challenge to summarize this but you know maybe we can go back and forth and you can help and let's see if we can get just the broad strokes of this down in five or 10 minutes and then we can have like a really big detailed discussion of the [ __ ] that's happening we got multiple narrative threads so Vito Skreemer has two best friends and one of them is Dutch Amsterdam and the other one is a woman and and the woman's name is Vicky Chandler I believe and so he's got these two best friends who he grew up with his kids and they're kind of in this gangster organization of his that he's like one of the top figures in and in our first issue we see that Vito Skreemer has organized this dinner it's a summit for all of these gang leaders that are coming to eat and discuss gang business and he's got his two best friends Dutch and Vicky here at this summit and suddenly the summit turns into a massacre where all these G-Lords all these Presidents who've come to attend this summit are all suddenly being executed and this includes Vito's friends who are in the the middle of the crossfire here his Lieutenant so to speak and what happens is one of them Dutch gets kidnapped and we realize that Dutch is being betrayed by by Vicky and and apparently Vito perhaps as well as although I think he doesn't know know that it's Vito yet and the the most horrific thing happens in issue one like one of the most horrific things I can think of that I've ever seen in a mainstream comic book where Dutch is like [ __ ] what is he's bolted to a table in a crucifixion Jesus pose a c a cage is placed on his face and then a rat that is like this scabby cancerous rat as they describe it in the story this horrific little monster is dropped down into the cage and as the gangster who's doing this says to Dutch its only way out of the cage is going to be down Dutch down through your face think about it those claws those teeth digging into your nose gnawing at your eyes burrowing into your screaming mouth all of that's G to happen unless you tell us they're trying to get some information out of Dutch and Dutch says oh God please I don't know I don't know please and they say not good enough Dutch nearly good enough and they drop the [ __ ] little monster into the cage and it starts eating Dutch's face off like and that shot of the mon that shot of the rat with like these boils and his [ __ ] up my God it's so gross I mean [ __ ] I don't know what to say like what the [ __ ] Chris what what is this what are we reading what the [ __ ] is this I mean I'm G tell you right now now this is taken from this is Amplified from what happened to Winston in 1984 right but it's done on such a higher degree because in 1984 you're just reading about it the fact that you're seeing this this I mean I think in I think in 1984 I haven't read this in forever I think it's like I think the rat doesn't eat through the guy it's just a threat I think they don't I think they threatening with him they threat winston4 they don't even they do this in this because against was great about it is is that Vicky has known Dutch since they were kids you know they used to run this little street gang she knows that's his biggest fear like the way Jones hates snakes and [ __ ] like that Indiana Jones and it's so shocking when Vito finds Dutch later and like the look on the the what's what remains left of Dutch's face is like it's it's worse than TwoFace you know it's it's [ __ ] up it's just like what the [ __ ] is going on here I mean like I said this is the type of stuff when you that just burned into my brain as you know as as as a young teen and it's a really interesting like like it's you know it's was great about it is it's setting you up with these tropes about gangster stuff that we have seen it understand you know the thing at the beginning with the with the dinner parties like THE GODFATHER thing with with the you know not THE GODFATHER but it's just that set up where they're all going to get set up and get killed it's kind of like the go at the end of the first one with the that montage when you know but it takes to another level because like Vicky who we find out later she this what's interesting is that she's betrayed by SKREEMER …Vito not by… it's by sex It's a sexual betrayal that she is still harboring the grief over and it kind of plays into that one Shakespeare line you know like "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" and it's like she is so angry at him for years and it's like and even though she and Dutch were friends first and she still and she loves Dutch you know from that very platonic like love she still is willing to go through this type of crime against him to get at Vito and that tells you the level of anger she has toward Vito and it's just it sets up that's why's interesting it's like the emotional the emotional evaluation that these characters are going through are so high and what's you know and what we're telling all the story like this and we're flashing back to when to when Vito and Dutch and Victoria are maybe like 10 11 and 12 and we're meeting this you know this guy Finnegan who's Grand whose son is later part of SKREEMER gang whose grandson is telling is the narrator of this yeah telling the whole story telling the whole story and Finnegan you know he goes through I mean it's given us a point of view and a like of how the of how the average Joe is living in this That's actually a great point man society thought about that You're right though that's the point of the Finnegan character because that without Finnegan we wouldn't see what the average person in SKREEMER's world what their life is like yeah I mean it's something that I talked it's something I had a conversation with my my manager time about a pilot I was working on a Sci-Fi thing and they were like can you can you show us what that world is you know and I feel like you know that's the thing that in a lot of really good science fiction these you know this pushing the world you know not necessarily the space up but the when the world's kind of collapsing you almost got to show us that so that we as regular readers can get a sense of how our life might be like in this world and the choices that we have to make because what is it Issue four like like Finning has got to make a [ __ ] up choice in Issue four oh my God yeah yeah we we'll get to that but yeah oh my God that's also one of the craziest one of the craziest [ __ ] things I've ever seen in a comic book I mean I mean well I mean well we don't see it but we're told what happen yeah I think if we were to see it I don't even think it's too much to even a comic you could you couldn't even do it yeah so yeah yeah so so I mean so that's kind of the first issue you know I mean you know wait wait hold on sorry hold on I want to jump in with the Finnegan character I should say that this average man that we're setting up in this world whose grandson is telling us the story what happens in the first issue is he's taking a truck on like a run for his boss and he's working for one of these gangs in this world and he suddenly hears the cargo in his truck making some noise and then he goes around and he opens it up to see what it is he's transporting and he realizes it's a bunch of young girls who are just children who are being sold into sexual slavery for one of these [ __ ] up gang lords and so this guy Finnegan is a good man and he's horrified by what he's inadvertently doing and he goes and he quits his job and he goes back to the guy who told him to do this and he punches him and he lets the girls go and the guy says like you you [ __ ] up you shouldn't do this because these girls they were heading to President Tiberius white who's like one of the ultimate horrible monster president in this world and so his boss is like you [ __ ] up now you let those girls go you know you're a dead man basically and so you better get moving and so this is the interesting thing with the Finnegan character is that he now takes his family he's got a wife and and three small children one of whom is a very sick girl and that was part of the reason he refused to do this is because like he's got his own daughters and he was like what kind of a man would I be to do this I have my own kids and so now he's quit the job and him and his family are basically on the run because he's made an enemy of this horrible gangster fight this and so I want to call that out because it's interesting thematically because a lot of what SKREEMER is talking about is you know in the story and what Pete Milligan is exploring is is this idea of morality and being a good person and whether it makes sense to be a good person in a world that is so brutal and is just in Ruins where you're surrounded by all of these characters giving in to the most horrific demonic impulses and I think Milligan is continually returning to this question of like can you even be a good person because through being a good person this guy Finnegan is now putting his family in a really [ __ ] up position at serious risk well I you know what it it goes into a theme that he spores in this very much is what's the power of your individual choice you know and and what are the consequences of the choices that you make and can you live with the consequences…. Hey folks Sorry for the interruption But thank you so much for listening to the show And Chris and I are just going to elbow our ways in here briefly to tell y'all about our Patreon And we're hoping that you'll consider very seriously signing up for our Patreon which is only two bucks a month And for those $2 …for 200 pennies a month… which these days is not even a cup of coffee at Starbucks It's so little money to ask for and we're going to be offering you so much in return But it would make a massive difference to us if you could sign up to be part of our show via the Patreon family because we're going to be offering you in return two free one-shot episodes OK they're not free [$2/month] but two episodes that are exclusive to our subscribers on the Patreon platform And these two one-shot episodes will feature Chris and I talking about books that we're not otherwise going to be discussing on the show at some length And you will be surprised by some of these books that we cover And that's not all though for the $2 bucks a month you're also going to get even more Chris what else do they get on Patreon? You will be able to send us [prioritized] questions for the Q&A show that we have planned it's more than one But it's the first one It will either be between seasons 1 and two or it'll be sometime in season two or it'll be right after And you know …something we'll figure out as we go along But you'll be able to put questions in and ask us anything that [you] want to talk about You know who's our favorite indie pop you know like comic publisher editor We should talk about you know totally there's something like that you like you know We'll see what happens Just ask us any question you want about comics from the '80s and we will get to that on the Q&A show We will also open up to subscribers only an opportunity to suggest what [fast-tracked] books we should read and cover for subsequent seasons So please subscribe We would so so much appreciate it And you get a chance to participate in the show and help the show grow and help us decide what books that we're going to cover I mean sure there's a huge list but there's always ones that we want to hear what the fans want to talk about as well And so Steve what comic might you talk about doing for your one-shot episode? OK, there is a comic that I might want to talk about here that was an underground comic that was published way back in the good old days of the 1970s It was considered part of the underground comics movement in a sense The book is called THE FIRST KINGDOM and it came out from roughly the years 1974 to 1977 and it was a 24-issue 768-page comic that took its creator Jack Katz 12 years to complete And it was an underground comic ostensibly …but it had very science fiction kind of concerns and vibes It's a scifi fantasy story that opens in a post-apocalyptic world And it's got all kinds of madness going on — Gods and Goddesses apocalyptic sci-fi — it's a really epic story with an unbelievably dense and detailed art style The comic had a lot of fans among other cartoonists at the time… Jack Katz was admired by such people as Will Eisner and Jim Steranko And even Jack Kirby had very positive things to say about the work that Jack Katz was doing And comic book historian RC Harvey according to Wikipedia here believed that Jack Katz was the first person in comics to pursue a personal vision at such length And so he was quite a trailblazer He was a unique figure in comics history and I've never really looked at his work with any degree of detail But I did happen to buy a complete set of THE FIRST KINGDOM off eBay last year It's a wonderfully bizarre-looking underground comic so I've got all the floppies and I'm excited to dive in And I think I'd love to talk about it in one of these episodes here And Jack Katz by the way happens to still be alive — he is 96 years young and the man is from Brooklyn, New York originally …I don't know where he lives today, but I hope he's doing well and I'm excited to check out his work finally after hearing a lot about it So THE FIRST KINGDOM by Jack Katz That's something I will be covering on the show …I need to get a copy of what you bought You want to read this? It's pretty wild It looks incredible like the art the art style everybody listening to this Look up THE FIRST KINGDOM Jack Katz comic online The art style is mind-blowing It is extraordinarily detailed and very very ahead of its time It's wild—looking work Beautifully drawn Really beautifully drawn Anyways that's one of my books Chris what are you thinking? what's in the chamber for you for these solo episodes? I'm going to read… it's a single issue it's… issue number 32 of MARVEL PREMIERE It has the character this is done by Howard Chaykin it's a character named Monarch Star Stalker and it's a book that I'd heard about for a long time I could never get my hands on it until eBay And I got on eBay about maybe three or four years ago I read it I loved it I was fascinated by it I always kind of love that mid- to late-'70s sci-fi that people were doing I think people were like really influenced by like psychedelics in a way that they weren't later you know and so not that I think that I know that and it's and so it kind of like it kind of like bleeds into the work of these comic artists like that And this is one of those books that's it's early Howard Chaykin you know predates what you call it Predates AMERICAN FLAGG! I mean he is working for Marvel It's like '78 or '77 or something like that I can't remember when But that's the book that I feel I might cover in our special one-shots that you will be able to get if you subscribe to the Patreon for $2 a month Please fans we would enjoy it and love it and appreciate you very much and now we will get back to COMICS ROT YOUR BRAIN!

…and I feel that this guy Finnegan he makes a choice that is the right moral choice but he suffers consequences Because this is such this is such an unrepentant world this you know I remember there's this movie called THE TOWN WITHOUT PITY some old Kirk Douglas film and it's like this is a society without pity because this guy makes a choice that puts his family on the lam his old daughter dies because they've got to move her and he quit his job and he can't get the you know he can't get the medicine for her you know and and he and he gets that that whiskey from the guy that one guy who's he like you know like it's like the it's like the like it's the ripple effect from his choices caused him to do things that he you know would rather not be forced to do but he's but he's trying to do the good thing and it's interesting because you know because you know in terms of like in terms of like how of like how SKREEMER behaves is like you know he like he the choices that he makes are [ __ ] up too because I'm tell right now that scene where his dad gets killed in the beginning and he's getting chased by that wno and he's got that bear trap that's set up to catch the dude it's just like I mean it's like the level of violence and the cruelty and like the demonic creativity in the violence is yeah Yeah it's actually they're rat they're rat traps which brings us back to the the motif of rats in this world too because we start with the rat on Dutch's face at the beginning and yeah it's one of the flashbacks to young Vito Skreemer is we realize that this old wino murdered his father in front of him and Vito watched this happen and then the wino tries to murder young Vito when he's like I don't know a little kid like 11 years old or something and young Vito engineers the situation where the wino steps right into these two rat traps and then the kid [ __ ] beats him to death beats this beats this man to death savagely and it's the first person he kills yeah well I mean you you I I don't have it I can't remember in front of me but is the guy does he just want to kill him or like does he want to rape him first oh I think yeah I think there is the indication he's gonna rape him and that's something we should say with SKREEMER that is horrific and ugly but it's a big part of this world and I read an interview with Pete Milligan after reading the story which kind of shed a little more light on this in the interview I read Milligan said that his writing always comes back to three main concerns and his three main concerns as a writer he finds are life death and sex and ultimately I think these are the things that SKREEMER revolves around and so I say that because virtually every time there's a moment of extreme violence it's almost always joined with some suggestion of sexuality whether it's explicit or implicit so often characters are about to kill each other and or assault each other in ways that are charged both with sexual and violent tension and it's like in the world of SKREEMER these things are inextricably intertwined yeah but and again that but the level of but the way that he amplifies it in like in this book again goes back to your comment earlier about like this wouldn't be published today oh no way I just don't see it I mean I mean I'm not sure if there's a trade paperback of this series I doubt there is because I just I mean like I'm sure people are like hey where is this where is this but I'm sure that they're like we can't we I mean this is a book that I'm pretty sure that Karen Berger put out kind of under the radar and I'm not sure what the sales on it were but you know I know that they were like we can't do anything like this again and I can't think of a book that that Vertigo like you know that that they later published that that was this graphic I mean I mean there is some there's a lot of violence in those Vertigo books that's what's kind of interesting about them I mean like like some of the violence in preacher some of the violence in in the Invisibles you know is pretty it's pretty horrific too but I don't but you make a great point it's like there it's the violence always kind of revolves around some s sexual situation again like I was saying earlier that Vicky is you know she's inflicting violence on Dutch you know because she was this woman who was who whose sex was kicked back in her face you know you know you know like by Vito yeah it's just you know I mean I don't know what to say about the first issue but it's just yeah it's it's crazy it's so crazy and I just looked it up cuz I was curious cuz to your point about the trade paperback I'd never seen a trade paperback for SKREEMER it looks like they did publish one in 2002 but it's been out of print as far as I can tell for almost 20 years I don't think they ever reprinted it but there is a handsome looking trade paperback that's out of print with a nice cover and it actually alerts us to the fact that this apparently was the winner of the Eagle Award for best continuing us UK series which is kind of shocking and I guess hats off to The Eagle Awards for giving an award to such an incredibly transgressive and provocative series But yeah so if you want to find that SKREEMER trade paperback you got to dig around for it perhaps There's that one printing but as always here on COMICS ROT YOUR BRAIN! I would recommend everyone find these individual issues because they're cheap as hell and they are beautifully designed And it'll just be an even better experience and I got to say one thing I noticed reading this Chris There's no ads hardly at all in the middle of these stories like comparing to modern day comics I'm looking at the first issue right now As far as I can tell there's only two pages of ads in a first issue that runs 28 story pages and one of the ads is just a house ad Oh I'm sorry three pages is it three pages yeah three pages of ads But that's three pages of ads in a story that you know is a significantly long story And you know it just it's impressive to me These days comics have so many ads in them that to have just three or what three or four ads in a 28 page comic that's reasonable But comics these days they have a lot more interruption I think here …I don't remember how much comics were in '89 I know they weren't $2 and the cover price on this is $2 and… comics might have been 75 cents at this time Or they might have been a dollar but I think that's part of the bumped price on this is because you know who's gonna advertise in this book you know Apparently That's a good point There's two house ads two house ads and now counting it carefully Warner Brothers was comfortable advertising for one of their hair metal bands The Bullet Boys and then there's an ad for Questar Science Fiction Fantasy …Yeah but that's a great point though Because today today you could not get a single corporation to place an ad in a book that is this wildly offensive I can't imagine You can't at all you know I mean in the back of the book is The back cover issue one is Cal which is another like it's a Warner Brothers movie so and this you know DC is one or both so they're not I mean it's you know I mean like they're going to reap their own like whatever from this but I feel like you know I mean it you said so this got the Eagle Award for that that's pretty fascinating but again it's because look again it's like at this time there was no books published like this there was no books that this level of like pushing the envelope and I and like I mean I want to say is this come out 89 I want to say this is like it's giving it's taking the reins off of so many writers particularly those British writers who who became the mainstays at Vertigo Yeah yeah yeah So should we jump to issue two real quick Yeah yeah yeah for sure that was a long-ass discussion summary of issue one But I think that's one of the tricky things about SKREEMER is there is literally so much going on in each issue These are very dense stories and it just reminds me of in the days before decompressed storytelling hit comics this was such a just substantial read This is not a comic you can read in five minutes or seven minutes or eight minutes every issue is just jam-packed with contentTthere's so many storylines going on that ultimately the six issues feels like something that would be told in 12 issues today because it's you know what I mean like there's so much packed in here so yeah so that's issue one We're setting all these different pieces on the board all different story lines and so in issue two I just give an example in issue two about the story lines like I'm just looking at I'm just flipping through like on page 19 All those end the end of it there's three tiers of panels right so there's the Finnegan story at the top there's the SKREEMER story in the present the story's present and then the last page is the SKREEMER story in the past when he's like around 21 or 22 or something like that and that's like I mean that's all one page you know like he's ding around that much and it's like it's crazy that's how dense this story is and it's not that it's dense like it's hard to read but it's like… it's the story there he's trying to tell and he and he's and again it's what I say all the time it's like can you keep me engaged as the reader you know So I don't have to So I'm not sitting here It's the one thing about like movies today is that like I can watch them and if I want to be jacking off I can because I don't need to be you know because I'm not that in I'm not that engaged per se you know And there's so much going on in this it's just yeah it's really it's a lot but it's great because he's trying to tell you again about what choices you make as people you know how do you live in a society that's falling down I mean so so so issue two is kind of like it picks up at the you know it's a direct pick up from the end of issue one where SKREEMER has come to rescue his friend Dutch from that crucifixion type of torture you know and takes him away and I mean like I mean like this guy's clothing like this big fur jacket he has on and it's Screamer it's just and that and that wide brim hat it's like a cowboy hat it's it's not I mean today it almost be like a bowler hat you would think But it's just like there's so much going on in this and then so and in this issue it tells us more about like how SKREEMER and Dutch and Vicky were like you know like as kids and what they were doing as you know to start their gang you know it goes into you know like the plan that Vicky is now because she's now part of she's a president on her own right and how she's surviving and how the other presidents are trying to take down SKREEMER and they're trying to set this up about what they're trying to do yeah and and that's that's a great point I'm glad you mentioned that Vicky has become a president in her own right because it's true although she had the betrayal by SKREEMER which is motivating her you know the romantic betrayal that she had with him there's also this aspect of Vicky which I love as a character Vicky Chandler where she has her own ambitions for power and she has her own ambitions to take over and she's not just content to be like a sidekick to SKREEMER she is now a president in her own right and she is seizing power in this world and we realize that she was responsible for the Betrayal of Dutch yeah and and she in issue two she says poor she says Dutch poor Dutch maybe I should have killed him better than leaving him with half a face ah I've known him since since I was I don't know and then someone says bit late to be sentimental president Chandler the rat was your idea remember yeah which well yeah because it's because see it's you make an interesting point about she has her own Ambitions and because you're saying that to me now I'm wondering this just feels like in the story it's like does she want to sleep with SKREEMER because she knew that that he was on this trajectory of you know this this power grab trajectory and she might have felt like I can get there faster you know or not even just faster but more maybe I I don't know but like I get there too you know by Sleeping with him by by by by becoming the gangster's she's not the gangster's Mall she's saying I'm going to play that role for a minute until I can you know turn it over and and be my own like and leave my own crew and I think that's what's really interesting about her character because it's honestly it's kind of like she's the antagonist of this you know story and she's it's like her motivations are I'm almost solely about you [ __ ] me over and I can't let you win that one and that means that Dutch has to get his face eaten off by a rat so be it you know it's one of the things I think is interesting about female characters who are on these kind of power trips because it's not necessarily a trait that naturally women are about and I'm not to say that you know you know the women don't want power and don't want you know to be in the driver seat of things But I think that the level of excess of control that you have to ex you know you have to wield as a ganglord is is it's not like your Cheryl samber going to run Facebook or something like that it's a different level of like trying to push power you know and control things and it's fascinating that you know that she's and she's then attracted to this man who again it makes you get you know look he's like the Bad Boy he's the ultimate Bad Boy like when they're teens and in their 20s I think that's why she wants him But it's letting you know cautionary tale you can't [ __ ] around with Bad Boys because they have their own agenda that's not good for you But you know but then we go back to Finnegan's story you know and it's like that moment you know like he's on the run and he's trying to save his family and he finds this whiskey because it's interesting how like whiskey and alcohol is this major kind of like this scarcity for it and you realize that wow in a world like this like how many people would be just trying to self-medicate just to survive and it's kept on this it's kept on this really small quantity level that when he he can steal a bottle of whiskey he realizes that he can sell that to like for drugs to you know for pharmaceuticals you know like it's got that much kind of like Street currency I think that's like a fascinating like just commentary on how he's he's orchestrating this world because you would think that you know that's the thing too there's not much like like explicit kind of like drug use you know like the narcotics but but I wonder if that's just a thing about what what you'd be able to to put in a story like a comic like this I mean I don't know man they put a lot in here like I can't imagine what they're holding back well no but I mean I'm just I mean I mean you're right but I'm just wondering it's like well you know but there's no one shooting up there's no one snorting cocaine you know it's just I mean funny it's funny if that's where they draw the line when like when you consider some of the stuff we're about to get to like this is so [ __ ] wild yeah and just I think you're right the Vicky characters fascinating and there's some really just compelling stuff going on with all the characters here and really you could explore the motivations of every single character all the men and women in this storyline seem to have multiple agendas and they all have a lot of stuff going on and I think none of the characters are exactly what they seem at first blush and there's there's a lot of there's a lot of a rich kind of there's a rich inner life to every one of these characters and I think it's what's really compelling the further you go down this rabbit hole I think that as we go through issue two Vito goes and rescues his buddy Dutch who got his face chewed off by the rat …Dutch doesn't realize yet that Vito was also kind of aware that this was going to be happening or Vito was aware that he was putting Dutch in a very dangerous precarious place or that he knew this was going to happen to him… Dutch is still thinking that Vito's his friend at this point And then we cut to Vicky sort of having a little bit of regret over what she did and we realized she's on her own path and then we cut back to the childhood as you said when they were just a kid gang and we realized the Dutch as a kid had this horrible fear of rats which Vicky was capitalizing on And then we come out of there and we see that we go to the Finnegan family back in the quasi-present day or closer to present day and the Finnegan family is having issues with one of their daughters being really sick and so Finnegan himself goes out for a walk and this is where he finds the whiskey that he essentially steals off of this homeless guy or this drunk who's drinking whiskey which is valuable in this world he steals the whiskey off him gets in a fight with him and takes it away from this dude and it's really like the first bad thing that Finnegan has done I think it's the first time he's sort of done something morally questionable and then when Finnegan at that point is on his way home he encounters Jesus on a cross and has this religious moment staring we've got a lot of religious symbolism throughout the story this is now our second cross imagery that's like full page imagery of Jesus on the cross — in the first issue we had Dutch on the cross — and now we have actual Jesus on the cross There [are] a ton of biblical allusions going on throughout SKREEMER and it's something we hear a lot of in the narration and not only biblical allusions but there's this idea that is returned to over and over again that ultimately pays off about whether or not God has foreknowledge of what is going to happen to human beings or whether God in allowing human beings to have free will that God God themselves has no foreknowledge of what is to happen to human beings And that's something that is just a question we return to over and over again but here Finnegan …after he steals the whiskey from the wino when he was taking a break from his house and his sick daughter and all the stress of it all he now he finds himself on his knees in front of Jesus He's praying as the description says here he'd almost forgotten how to pray and to whom he might pray to this — Christ this broken altar But the light the light still squeezed in All the ruin the filth all the destruction it hadn't completely blocked out the light And then Finnegan makes this really earnest prayer about his daughter and he says please God if You just let Katie live I know I shouldn't have taken the whiskey But I know You'll understand just let my Katie get better and then we hear from there Finnegan goes home But he suddenly hears wailing as he gets closer to his apartment and we realize that the worst has happened his daughter Katie has died And so there is this connection I think that's being suggested by Milligan here that Finnegan has now fallen from Grace he's done his first sin In a way he's committed his first sin and immediately in the aftermath of it his sick daughter dies and the only reason he was committing the sin was to try to help figure out a way to get money to help get medicine for his sick daughter But even still he's immediately punished by The Fates by God by what-have-you His daughter dies he drops the whiskey bottle the metaphor — the symbol of his sin He drops it immediately It shatters And he sits down in the rain and Finnegan look sits down and the description… I just want to read this very last bit here… The description says, "He sat down and he looked up, my grandfather. He looked up at the sky, the empty empty sky. They buried Kate Finnegan two days later in the blasted ruins of a forgotten church." And I just want to point out how beautiful Pete Milligan's prose is because Milligan is writing in a way that is so evocative and it's so lovely And it's a way of writing that's almost disappeared really in modern comics And I think back in the day when Alan Moore would do this also to great effect Some people would criticize Alan Moore and I think Alan Moore himself has joked about his tendencies toward so-called "purple prose" in SWAMP THING and how his descriptions would go on and on and on sometimes But for me I always love that about Alan Moore And here with Pete Milligan I think he's striking the perfect balance because he's not overdoing it He's not overwriting But if you read just some of the word choices are so incredibly emotional and evocative And he's really going for it like at every time where there's a major shattering moment… a major emotional moment… Pete Milligan is not holding back He's just going for it and he's really just twisting the knife at every opportunity emotionally and intellectually The story's working on so many levels But I think that the narration and the way that he allows the narrator to speak in such singular language I think is a big part of how this story kind of sticks to your ribs Because it's like poetry at times It's like brutal harsh awful poetry you know what I mean Just the same way when you read A CLOCKWORK ORANGE and you read the way Anthony Burgess kind of writes out certain sentences and certain things It's the poetry that I think really helps it work and I think it's a lot easier to kind of hide behind like "Oh just let the artist handle it, Let the artist do everything, Let the artist convey the sadness, Let the artist do it." And I think Sure the artist is going to do their share But I think Pete Milligan is not shirking his duty as the writer here He is showing up with some incredible turns of phrase that for me a lot of them were just devastating Like there's moments in here where just the language itself is just so brutal and it's a big part of the world Yeah I mean I think that you make a good point is that you know in terms of the balance of how much how much It's not that he's given description I mean look he's describing emotional states of the characters you know and that I think you know look this is in this age when the thought balloon was disappearing or probably fully disappeared And I think that it's I I you know sometimes I think that was a good thing to have in comics Because you because you get it in novels all the time But I but I feel that it might have been somewhat I guess it got to a point where it's somewhat obtrusive in comics Because of like where you gonna put the thought balloon but But usually these kind of like you know like these boxes of description you know they usually go you know some people obviously like in I'm remember like in dark not DARK KNIGHT but in SIN CITY like Frank Miller will have like a whole a whole panel that's just description about stuff you know But you're right it's like the word choice and and how he's trying to like to channel you into the story more make you feel like what this guy is going through just rest of I mean not just you know Finnegan but everyone what they're going through because there's a certain amount of of the acting that you can't get in the drawings you know it's one of these things that you that I talk about on my other podcast about how you know how filmmakers use music to say what the images can't say and there's times where you just can't you know like you can't get anyone's like like so they'll use music to be like what's the inter to help help push the internal state of a character I think that I think that's what he does so well in this book to so we understand again what people are like suffer uing through because there's a lot of suffering in this you know I don't think there's anyone who like you know who escapes a high degree of suffering that you know that that might break most people it's interesting you say that he makes this comment about this is the first sin that he makes you know and again it goes back to that choice he made in the first issue not to let those girls get sewed into slavery and every choice he has to make to proce it's like you know what he chose to save other people not his family and now his family suffers from every choice that he now makes and it's letting you know it's like well are you better off being selfish and saving your own family or are you trying to be like to protect the greater good you know like what can we because you think about a society like this a society like this like only collapses when when everyone gets to be too selfish and that's what I think is what he's kind of like exploring a lot again it's a great thing to do to show the average Joe what he or she is having to go through like like like in this world that's just so tragically brutal oh God yeah suffering suffering is the right word like everyone suffers everyone suffers so horribly like and I could see someone calling the story nihilistic and you know just so hopeless and violent and brutal but there really is also just this this aspect of religion and yearning for something better that is represented by by Finnegan and the characters who are really trying desperately to have some goodness and some moral grounding in their life but ultimately Milligan's asking hard questions here he's forcing everyone reading this to try to put thems in the shoes of these characters and just ask yourself yeah what would you do if you had a sick daughter who needed medicine and now you're being faced with this choice of do you piss off these brutal gang Lords so that your sick daughter can get medicine I mean or no do you do you do what the brutal land gang Lords want you to do so that but then by doing so destroy the lives of these other innocent girls and in so doing save your daughter or do you do the right thing quote unquote and like yeah sure you free these people and you don't sell them into a life of slavery of course that's the right thing but then by doing that you're dooming your own daughter to death you're dooming your own daughter to a life where now she's not going to get medicine and you're gonna be in danger and these gang Lords are coming after it's a [ __ ] horrible Sophie's Choice predicament constantly constantly and this poor character Finnegan it's gonna get worse for him it's gonna get way worse for him it's gonna get it's it's gonna get so worse that it's hard I mean we'll get to it it's just you know I mean this the SKREEMER story well the SKREEMER story in this is you kind of see his rise you know like you see him as a kid like take out a SKREEMER you know and assume that guy's identity in the tiberious white organization you know and and what he's doing and you know and this is this the first time that you know that Dutch like runs in on him and Vicky having Vicky and SKREEMER Vito like having sex but again you know I mean and you just see these things he's trying to make and the choices that they're I mean that's scene of what the last couple Pages where you know that that Vicky's trying to explain to Dutch about you know what she did you know like sex she had with him like yeah we're good friends so it's one of those interesting things it's it's kind of like you know she knows that it's it's it's like Dutch is in the friend zone with her you know and and maybe he wants to be there I mean not want be but maybe he's okay with it with being there or maybe he's not because sometimes like you get too close with a woman and it's like you know like I can't you know have that sexual relationship with her because then it'll really muddle the waters because we had so much going on like just as a friendship but it's but you see how it kind of takes a toll on Dutch this what so what one thing interesting I want to point out about Dutch he's black and I think he's the only person of color in the entire series you know which is which is interesting I think that is true I think you're right actually yes and that is an interesting choice that's made by miligan here yeah how did you feel about that in terms of Dutch's character and like the choice for him to be the one black character like how did how did that hit you because it is an interesting choice yeah well I mean it's not something that I I kind of even thought about to me like the issues three four and I was like oh there's no there's nobody else black here this guy is like like he's being used as a fulcrum to you know like whatever he's a pawn in the game of a lot of people and and it's almost like he's got no agency like on his own and when he does have some choices to make you know he doesn't make the right choices and you know the rest of the time he's just being victimized because he's friends with you know these power hungry white people and I just I I think it might have been different if there's if there were other you know people of color throughout the book because there's none like it really stands out you know and obviously that we said earlier on when you meet him the first time it's like there's that that that he's he's that that Christ imagery of him and it's you're kind of like you know is he being sacrificed for the well you know he's definitely being sacrificed for these other people to try to find out like who they are I mean it is tough going you know it's tough going because it's that you know to say the least yeah yeah yeah it's a weird it's a weird thing Man it actually reminds me of something I heard you talking about also on on screenwriters rant room I think it was or maybe it was offline but I heard I remember when you were talking about promising young woman how I think it was like the one black character in promising young woman was treated in a way that felt like just a little bit more humiliating than the other guys that the that Carrie Mulligan's character Encounters in that story that like he starts crying and runs away as a reaction to her which was different than any of the other characters had to Crazy to car to Carrie Mulligan doing sort of crazy wild [ __ ] yeah yeah it's something that I kind of like I mean it's it's something that I pick up on you know obviously as a black man the depiction of black men in certain narratives that you know don't revolve around them and I I mean particularly in that particularly in that movie because it's kind of like you know you I mean and that movie was like extra disappointing for me because it's like you have this woman who's writing this story about about like female empowerment and female victimization and it's I think it's something that goes on a lot in with oppressed classes is because you there's a there's an interesting kind of like one-upmanship that goes on which I think is incorrect but it does go on it's it's kind of like who's oppressed more you know who has the worst who has it worse and then I and I just feel like you know that like I said it was like how that guy behaved and the thing is it's like that guy his he was coming across in a way that was very kind of like extra Macho and I feel like that was something that maybe the what the I forget her name I think it's like Hannah fidell but that's not right but but the the filmmaker behind pris young woman she's British and it's like she's making this movie and it's like you might not know enough black men you know to to understand that and I'm sure that if you're white and you do know black men they are probably doing some level of code switching just to be around you like in a way that you know that they know is not gonna scare you off and I yes it's interesting you remember that because I look at this and I'm I'm just kind of like you know there could be and this is one of the things I always find fascinating about you know future stories is future stories a lot of you know like they have a high degree of white men in control of things and it's just weird because it's kind of like well we have known for a long time that's just not going to be the case because I I just kind of feel like even in this story you know there's all these extra presidents you meet around stuff like that and there's no one black there's no one Asian there's no one you know East Asian there's no one Hispanic you know or Latinx whatever is I'm just kind of like that but now granted again this is in '89 where people aren't maybe necessarily thinking about that who are white writers Peter Milligan I believe that he's from England so he's got it's more of a but then if he's from London it's like but London has been such a cosmopolitan city that it seems like there's there's a higher degree of kind of like of of I'm gonna have a Blinder on you know in a sense because I feel like you know it's like it's one of those things happens that if you're if you're from New York City or maybe from LA or maybe from London or from Paris those cities are so metropolitan and they're so drenched with all these other characters particularly particularly I would say like like England in a different way than because all those those those colonies of people who are living there and around you it's like what is the circle that you are living in that you are kind of like that you're purposely not in not engaging people of other cultures even though they're all around you know that's a fascinating point it's a really great Point actually because that to me represents one of the primary failures of imagination I would say with SKREEMER and I think with any science fiction story because you know when you're creating a world in science fiction like it's one thing to say like oh it wouldn't be realistic for you know the president or this gang Lord in you know the 70s in this particular place or in the 50s in this particular place to be a person of color or or Asian or whatever but I think to say that that's not the case and that that's not possible in a future world that's a dystopian world that you're creating from a whole cloth I think that to me feels like a failure of imagination and probably is representative I would guess maybe of just what you said that it was a different time and perhaps Pete Milligan just wasn't thinking about it that carefully and and honestly maybe he thought just by making the best friend a black dude that that in itself was going to be considered a progressive act on some level even though if you look at that for two seconds you would realize exactly what you're saying that that character is a pawn who gets his [ __ ] face eaten off and gets crucified in the first issue so if you're gonna go for one character that's a person of color that may not be the right one to choose and you know I remember it actually reminds me of some really great advice that I got writing from my ex- brother-in-law who's a brilliant filmmaker in the UK himself named James Henry and he was a an academy award-winning filmmaker years ago and he was one of my first writing mentors and I remember one time discussing this exact issue with him and he's a a White English man and I remember talking to him when I was working on one of my first screenplays and I was like 18 19 years old and I said to him hey so I've got this character in the story and going to be presented as like you know a character who has these traits XYZ traits how can I make sure that like it doesn't seem like I'm trying to make some kind of statement or you know tokenize this character because they're like they're really angry in the scene or they're really irrational in the scene or whatever I remember thinking like how do I make it clear that I'm not intending this character to represent like some statement on all black people I remember my my brother-in-law at the time looking at me like I was stupid and he was like well you should have more black characters then just have more than one yeah and just fill in the world so it looks closer to the world that we're living in and you can have if you've got two or three black characters in the story then yeah one of them can be an [ __ ] you know and then one of them can be really cool or whatever but don't just tell a story where you're just going to have one member of One ethnic group if you can avoid it try to populate the world in such a way like you were saying like so it feels represent ative of the Melting Pot that most of the urban centers of the world that so many places in the world really are and have been for a long time so you're not just tokenizing anyone and I think if Pete Milligan had done that with SKREEMER if we saw multiple presidents or other characters that were Indian Asian black etc etc then it wouldn't feel quite as glaring that the one character of color is so you know rendered passive and such a victim of all these other quote unquote stronger characters around him and I think that to me in talking it out that is honestly one of my only major complaints with the story of SKREEMER I think that's one of the things that I would characterize as a as a shortcoming of the story that is problematic and and disheartening to see because I think the story is pushing boundaries and so Progressive in so many ways I wish that Milligan had given just AIT more thought to that one aspect because I think it it really to me it hurts the story looking at it today in that I me it's interesting because you know two of you know like two of my favorite science fiction films and obviously they the favorites of a lot of people is is alien and is a Blade Runner you know and both those are directed by reallyy Scott who is from from London England you know I'm not I'm not sure necessar where he's from in in England the UK but I know he spent that time he's living in London and it's like and those two films have very you know smartly drawn people of color you got Parker an alien who is like one of the last guys to die in I think I think he's the last person to die you know like like in alien and in what you call it in Blade Runner you know you've got Gaff who's play by Edward James almost he's he doesn't die and he's got a interesting role but like all the people that he he looks at in the in the Underworld you know like the there's Chu who's making the eyes there's that there's that Arab guy who's got the snake you know there's like I mean there's interesting kind of like like Bevy of people who are people of color who who who who are in that you know and I think that's what interesting I mean to me it's like okay look like those are examples of films that are done by white guys you know or white guy like at the time when everyone was saying it is problematic that there aren't people of color like in the future like that and but I think there was something saying that if you look at BLADE RUNNER and you look at like just the 
extras in all those street scenes it's this huge like mishmash of people because there's some sort of storyline going on there about the offworld colonies is where all the middle class and [ __ ] rich white people have moved to and it's the other races who can't afford to go there and I mean it's like a really like like a strange reading of that movie that I've only heard maybe the last couple years But you you hear that talking about off-world colonies and that's where they use The Replicants to do stuff and it's like that's really an interesting kind of just read of how he set that world Again I'll go back to your statement about like if you're building this world out wholecloth then you know what are your responsibilities you know like as the... what you call it... the storytellers Now granted you know this also an it could also be a problem with the artist with Brett Ewins because you know maybe like like Peter's not you know thinking about they say about this main story and it's really maybe Brett who should have been saying Hey I'm gonna draw these other gangsters this way you know here and there and just populate it out Right right the way that I mean it's just I mean look you see so many gang scenes that it's like how hard it would have been to put put an Arab in there to put an Asian person in there put you know someone else Black in there You know like I mean I mean it's just interesting to see how that was not I mean I'm just curious to I'd
be curious to know like that choice and and things like that because I yeah no it's a really good point it's a really good point and a good question because obviously representation was not something that was talked about in the same way back then and it just I would guess it might have just been something that nobody thought of and they just didn't really think twice about it cu the default back then in storytelling was just like oh well all the characters are white unless you've got some reason to make them Black or Asian or whatever

I still remember when I when I first took screenwriting classes I mean you probably remember this too that it was considered just de facto the norm that you didn't have to mention that your characters were white because that was assumed The only the only time in a script -- and I was taught this --

I was literally taught this by screenwriting teachers when I took classes that you were not supposed to mention the race of your characters unless they were nonwhite because literally it was like the assumption is of course they're white who else would we be telling stories about and oh yeah if there's an exception to that well then of then yeah obviously you need to call that out like that was literally the thinking back then and now thank god it's 180-degrees different but I just say that to illustrate for anyone who wasn't alive or writing stories or reading stories back then

back then that was just the default and it's sad but I think that certain stories suffer through that prism when you look at it in 2021 [...2024...] Having said that I think that we've you know we're we're doing our usual incredibly languid job of trying to summarize a story so I guess we'll we'll keep summarizing as we slowly walk through this But I do want to mention that we haven't talked enough probably about the art of Brett Ewins and Steve Dillon here and Brett Ewins is, sadly,  passed away and It's really unfortunate And I think he died younger than he should have But my goodness what a what a t tremendous job he did on the visuals here overall I really feel like he and Steve Dillon,

they brought a lot to the table here And it's a really well-crafted and sharply drawn comic book that just it works as a story The storytelling is fairly impeccable and Brett Ewins and Steve Dillon are legends in UK Comics they were some of the early 2000 AD artists they also launched the significant seminal UK Comics magazine DEADLINE which of course birthed such iconic characters as Tank Girl and it was also the place where Jamie Hewlett who drew TANK GIRL and went on to co-found The Gorillaz got his start DEADLINE was a magazine that I [ __ ] loved as a kid and I was lucky enough because I would go visit my brother-in-law [who is English] and my sister, who were living in the UK at that time, and spend time over there When I was in high school

it was right around the time DEADLINE launched and I just ate that [ __ ] up when I was over there. And… so, Brett Ewins and Steve Dillon, they founded DEADLINE magazine and so these guys are giants themselves in the world of UK Comics art and, sadly, they're both passed away now

And of course Steve Dillon went on to draw PREACHER, and that was a massive series, as well, and that's probably his biggest claim-to-fame. I mean the thing about the art in this is it's very polished but there's still kind of like a roughness to it to reflect the world that is being depicted I mean and it's also but it's also it's very clean in terms of like compositions like there's there's never a moment where you're reading this book where you can't follow the story visually orless you don't know what's happening in a panel or that you can't read someone's emotional state with the way that their face is drawn or that there's you know or just or the way they're positioned like there's a lot of interest I mean in issue three there's that moment where Dutch takes the bandages off his face for the first time and it's like you know and you're looking at and it's and it's always these shots from behind you know and there's that one shot of seeing the face but it's like he's sitting on the bed and he's like he can't face himself and it's just this it's just there's that acting that that that that he does that Brett does so well like in this you know I just also the way that he draws SKREEMER like SKREEMER you know like like he's he's he's physically Larger than Life but not to the point where it's a caricature but but his clothing helps with kind of like expand his stature get these weird shoes on that feel like there's these some like combination the combination of like spats and Doc Martins it's like some wild ass [ __ ] man yeah well that shot there the at the end of that that Splash panel at the end of one is like he's in this like big white fur coat with this huge ass like Tommy Gun like amp up Tommy Gun this hat this T that skinny ass tie which was I guess coming back then it's just really it's something else like the the just the production design of this comic and what Brett did and how he you know and you know Steve Dillon is the inker you know I mean he's doing a lot to to help us like you know I be it'd be curious to see you know what this you know like like these original comic pages like would look like like pre color yeah I'd be fascinated I'd be fascinated because I feel like I can I can see some Steve Dillon in some of this in terms of the faces and whatnot and just sort of the long faces but I'm not sure how much of that really is also just Brett Ewins because I have to say personally I far prefer the work of Brett Ewins and Steve Dillon as a team over for me personally the work of Steve Dillon on preacher because I although I really respect what Anis and Dillon did with preacher visually for me I did not love Steve Dillon's style on PREACHER and interesting because I find myself actually being a much bigger fan of Steve Dillon's work when he was very young and he did really early stories and he broke into Comics like he was kind of a savant I think he broke into comics when he was in his teens and he did some very early work for [2000] AD he did a series that was later republished and repackaged by Eclipse Comics that was called I think it was like axle and press button it was like laser eraser Axel and press button had some crazy title like that and that was drawn by an extremely young Steve Dillon and for me I kind of prefer the younger Steve Dillon work as far as Steve Dillon periods go but I think working in tandem with Brett Ewins this for me is something that actually I find quite compelling and quite striking so I love what Brett Ewins is bringing to this I think it's really phenomenal work like you say the storytelling is just so Exquisite and you are able to track so many storylines so many characters and there was never a moment in these six horrific deeply disturbing issues there was never a moment that I was confused no and really that's that's impressive for a story with so many conflicting storylines dozens of characters it's a masterful feat of artistic storytelling to be able to convey all that with clarity yeah I mean it's interesting there's the colorist named Tom Ziuko he is you know he's not listed on the cover perhaps he should be because yeah it's a amazing color amazing the color it's amazing what he does stuff but the color also helps us track what time period we're in you know because like you see the modern day thing is full colored kind of like these garish colors the the the flashbacks with SKREEMER and Dutch and Vicky it's it's just like it's it's it's like a sepia tone you know and then the flashbacks with with Finnegan's family is it's a it's a different type of sepia tone it's more like it's more like it's like a it's like a pale orange you know is like the highlight to like a darker brown as the as like the you know the sh the shadow color and the hues sometimes like filmmakers do this sometimes they don't I always think it's it helps you to if you're flashing through time to give me a different color palette so I don't need to guess when we are particularly in movies you know but it help it because it helps so well in this story to like to reorient you and that's something I mean you see it in comics a lot but not you know but but it's not so much in superhero stuff because there's not there's not a lot of flashbacks or or time jumping but even when there are flashbacks I think I think it would be helpful just you know to tell it with a different color palette because it kind of you know it helps you through something I just remember there was always this great quote from Federico felini about when he did his movie called Juliet of the spirits which was his first color film after that he said he said he kind of avoided color photography for a while because his ji spe I think is maybe like I think it's after eight and a half so maybe looking at 65 or something like that so color for films had been out for at least you know 15 years or something like that he said you know like if you get the colors wrong in a in a movie it's like writing a sentence with the adjectives out of order you know and I I really fascinating because it makes you makes me it just makes you think like oh you don't know how to emphasize what you're saying the right way if you don't know how to use that the right way and it's really and I think that that in this book it's used in such a cool way I mean just like you said before starting off from the the covers the covers you such kind of like garish this this almost like the the colors are they're almost kind of neon in a sense on each the way that they do it all they're amazing covers they're [ __ ] crazy they pop they would pop off the racks these color choices are [ __ ] wild yeah I mean I also think it's interesting because today there's such use of computer color right and computer color tends to be a little muted because everyone is trying to push something that's more realistic and you know there's all this level of like trying to be like the of shading you can do and gradients and stuff like that to just make it look really really smooth but if you look at the cover like if if if we look at the cover of issue three right it's like the back like the the primary color is this pretty powerful like deep yellow and you know and and then the text of the title is in this this great offset red this one of kind of like you know like opposite undercover wheel but if you look at you know but if you look so you got SKREEMER carrying this woman that he who was carrying his baby I can't remember her name is it like Claudia or something like that I think it's Claudia but it's like if you look at the way she's colored right it's like she's it's white like it's real white and like this kind of like dirty pink that's all that it is and I think that today you know and it's not and and SKREEMER he's not the same pink it's close to but not the same because if you look at his hands this closer to a skin tone you know she's dead obviously in the cover but it's like but it helps with make everything pop because it's just like two three colors are going Bam Bam Bam and it's the contrast is so Stark and I think that's something that that we lose in today's coloring with the computers and this is obviously what 89 so they don't even have that capability yet and but yeah it's something again that makes this book as an interesting kind of story because this level of like of in yourr face like screaming the way the colors is doesn't really reflect what how the interior of the book is colored you know no not at all it's a that's a great it's a conscious choice very choice and it's such a really I mean like I said before mean the interior colors are so helpful in guiding you through the story which needs a lot of guidance because of like it's jumping around through multiple time periods so much like I was saying like just like like that one page in su2 where it's like three different time three different time periods on one page which is know like hard to kind of to navigate I think as the writer the reader the the the artist but but these guys like but they make it work in this book which is they really do they really do and you're right to call out the coloring because it is so thoughtful and smart the way that Tom Ziuko does this and it really does remind me as you were saying of cinema and the way films like traffic will have the different color palette for each storyline just as that visual way to immediately allow the audience to fall into that timeframe and track what's going on and Ziuko is doing the same thing here and it's clearly well thought out and it's a brilliant choice and it helps with the readability and the clarity immeasurably because Pete Milligan much like Mike Baron who we talked about with NEXUS is not a writer who suffers fools gladly and Pete Milligan keeps this [ __ ] moving and he is jumping through so many time frames in and out in- and out chronology is all insane and Ziuko really helps keep this all connected and readable and I think that Tom Ziuko is somebody we'll be talking about on the podcast again before too long because he was a major colorist in the '80s he colored a lot of HELLBLAZER but also he colored another book that we're excited to talk about which is THRILLER with Trevor Von Eeden and Robert Loren Fleming and that's also a really beautifully colored book as well so Ziuko just very significant colorist from that era who I think you don't hear people talk about enough but this is just really wonderful world class work all around I mean SKREEMER is a terrific package and it's this is absolutely a book that I'm so happy we're talking about Chris because this is the kind of thing that when we were discussing launching this podcast I was hoping we'd have long discussions about because this is a serious piece of work yeah like for all of the flaws and foibles that we absolutely could discuss and pick apart with with certain aspects of it it's a deeply considered and largely incredibly executed piece of work that I think very few comic fans today are aware of and I've heard virtually no one talk about for the last 30 years years you know but but but just to kind of wrap up what happens in issue three yeah yeah please so this is the ultimate choice for Finnegan the end of this this is the choice that breaks him so that guy Tiberius white who he you know betrayed in issue one where he like you know where he took those girls and let them go president yeah yeah the president white I'm sure he's forgotten about all this because it's so many years later but you know but he's now in charge of all this [ __ ] the gang wars are over in the past and he has kidnapped Finnegan Twins and they're basically gonna be you know they basically told you know what you got to [ __ ] each other for our amusement at this big party but at this like [ __ ] crazy Sodom and gamorra [ __ ] wild gangster part this party but then Finnegan goes he he goes to rescue his kids he gets there he's like you know he calls out the president as an animal a complete animal who's who's who and it's like he's like run to think about the choice do you know what you've chosen to be an animal you chosen to be a monster you know you know you CH he goes you you chose to kill and MIM and terrorize and you know and and and and the tiberious is like f was like [ __ ] all that you know what's gonna happen I'm gonna have you kill too but then Vito steps in and he's like no let me have these kids and he and he goes to Finnegan and he's got you he's this this this this line that he say so crazy he goes it's your decision it's your choice are you human or are you an aminal or or or are you an animal you you you made it sound so easy to choose so let me see you do it so he gives him a he gives him a blade and he's like here's your choice you you can either kill your kids or you can kill these other two kids that we kidnapped so choice is your son and then it's just like what the [ __ ] like that's you know in this last page where it's like there's these great little shots of like you know it's Finnegan's face it's the it's these little boys who've been kidnapped and then it's his and then it's his Twins and that's like it's like okay dude that's your choice you know how do you survive this choice and that's kind of how like like issue three ends you're just like what the [ __ ] is this I mean and that's I mean look we've there's stuff that's pretty crazy in a lot of mediums but it's like you know you kill your children so they have to [ __ ] in front of people or yeah this is you kill other kids that's [Music] you yeah it's it's insane it's wild it's [ __ ] insanity and yeah I'm looking at the the pages right now and it this blew my mind reading it I couldn't even believe this was the Cliffhanger for issue three I think to be clear Vito's actual choice that he gives finne again is you kill those two these other children and your two your two kids live you don't kill them and your children die so so he's not necessarily saying he has to kill his own kids but he's saying if you don't kill these other two kids we're gonna kill your kids yeah so you choose and so now what's interesting about this and I'm glad you called this out as the Cliffhanger for issue three is because now up to this point and I hadn't really thought about this till we were talking about it now but up to this point we've seen Finnegan have two moral dilemas before this right the first one he realized he was accidentally transporting these children into a life of sexual slavery and he had a crisis of conscience understandably and he was like [ __ ] this [ __ ] I'm freeing the kids I'm not going to be a party to this I don't care how much it risks my life or my family this is wrong I'm not g to be a party to this okay he did that and it sort of [ __ ] up his family meant that they had to go on the Run they were living in danger they didn't have money for medicine for his sick daughter and then the second moral sort of cross roads happen where he needed money for the medicine for his sick daughter now and he was willing to Rob this [ __ ] wno in the street and steal his whiskey from him because he wanted to sell it and then the instant he did that practically moments later his daughter dies right and so yeah so we've had these two big moral Crossroads where Finnegan first time did the right thing and it [ __ ] over his family second time he did the wrong thing and it still [ __ ] over his so so poor Finnegan now the question is what's he gonna do and so as we return to this horrific moment in the next issue Finnegan let's see this is Issue four when did they come back to it it's like we actually it's pretty early we actually don't we actually don't come back to it right away do we like I think it's page six so page six page six okay okay got it got it so here he says Ah God I can't do it anything else I'll kill myself will that do I'll slit my own throat and you can let all the kids go and then Vito Skreemer our main character our Title Character says you said it yourself however bad things are we always have a choice your choice was kill them or yours die you chose not to kill them so yours die life so simple isn't it and then Vito points his gun at this guy's kids and you think Vito's going to kill them but then when we cut to a little bit later the father is walking home on the street and we find out from the context of the the captions here he walks home and then slowly trailing way after him his own kids walk home as well walk into his house and we realize that the father Finnegan his clothes we see are now splattered in blood his wife is like what happened what happened to your clothes what happened what happened we realize that he reconsidered apparently at the last minute and he decided to kill those Inn and what happens to him it was crazy what happens to him is you know his two CH his twins they have to actually leave the family they got to like go out west because it's basically like they can't stomach seeing their father who kept them alive but had to kill two other kids and that's just I mean so again the choice he made the moral Choice he made destroyed his family you know it's just just lets you know that I mean chipping away and his family you know it and it just it and it doesn't stop from there because you know then they go back to that to that party you know you Pi you pick it up and that's when Vito takes over that's when Vito has set it up to and he kills you know President White and that's when he becomes you know the top president that's when he and that's when his when he he's he's no longer called the SKREEMER he's just called SKREEMER like like Vito Skreemer and he's the one he's the one there's a really nasty part where dude is like he's licking the blood off the knife he's here come taste some it's like what the [ __ ] is this man like this like the foulness in this you know the depravity on display here is really it's quite it's quite high it's insane I mean and throughout throughout all the issues so far you find out that in the future like Vito has a woman who's pregnant with his child and she's in childbirth and then she meets and she befriends Finnegan's son who's now maybe 20 he's working for Vito which is pretty you know which obviously the dad did not like but that's what had to happen and and so there's this little current storyline about you know Vito and you know and he's about his his his sex toy he about to have like his baby you know and then the story kind of rolls out more and you see that Finnegan he can't even deal with his choice you know he beats his wife well he slaps his wife around and then he just like frees the family you know he goes on this two-year Odyssey where he becomes like some homeless bum and just can't even like you know he can't even face himself to that really again we go back to the scene where he goes back to that church where he buried Katie probably like 10 years earlier or something like that and you know he meets this woman who's also kind of like you know who's suffered a lot and she kind of like shows him there's still I know she shows him some sorts of forgiveness and it allows him then to kind of like forgive himself see there's some interesting line I think in the in a later issue where she says something about he he feels that she was able to maintain some dignity yeah yeah yeah she held on to some shred of her spirit or something amidst every yeah it's he says I went to turn away I was disgusted but then I realized even though she was ravaged and ruined there was still some part of her intact that hadn't died and I thought that maybe all real angels are like that just one step away from Damnation and so I thought that if there was still some spark left in this toothless hag there was still some hope left for old Charlie Finnegan it's crazy wow I mean you know and then he comes back home after two years like there a great shot where it's like it's it's great because there's no dialogue it's just like he you're back with the wife Carla and there's a knock at the door and then he's there and then it cuts to the kid's face the kid who's later on maybe eight 10 years maybe five years later starts working for starts working for SKREEMER the kid who's narrating who's narrating the story not him it's actually that guy's son is narrating the story oh that's right that's right crazy you know and you know and then at the end of Issue four is when these balloons get launched that's part of SKREEMER kind of plan to kind of take over everyone where he's got he supposedly has this this plague like that there's in these balloons that's a really this is this is nuts this is nuts because this made me realize the story actually was a lot more relevant and contemporary in a way I don't know if you thought this reading this but reading this in covid Era 2021 I was like holy [ __ ] this is like watching 12 Monkeys today with this whole talk of like engineered viruses and pandemics taking over the world Etc and like this was shocking to me to get to this part that's probably something we should mention that I think in the early issues when they talk about the fall there was mention of the plague that had happened and that was I think part of why maybe his daughter was sick and needed medicine and all that there was a plague that had been part of why the world had fallen apart and so now these issues that that we've come up to where you're talking about with the balloons and Vito is talking about these Balloons with this kind of official look dude who turns out is some kind of a scientist sort of figure who works for him and it's kind of unclear for the first few issues when Vito is asking about the balloons we don't know what he's talking about but then we find out that there's this crazy plan this really batshit insane plan that Vito's hatched that he's got this scientist in League with him ready to carry it's basically it's basic his plan is basically you know they're saying that the age of the Giants the age of the screamers all going to be over like we're at that Tipping Point of the previous age entering the new age and he's trying to he's trying to maintain control so his thought is let me bioengineer a plague and then let me have the only like vaccine for it and I'm just going to launch it out under the world and then people have to come and bow down to me if they want to survive because I'll give them the vaccine like that is a level of insanity it's a level of insanity that's again again like reading it I mean look in in ' 89 I don't think we we even thinking about plagues or no not at all this is so this is so preent that's what blew me away reading it today I was like you know what in ' 89 what the last plague probably probably was the damn I mean look there was the small pack small poox breakout in like New York in the 50s but really the last plague plague might have been the the 19 18 Spanish Flu you know soort was 70 years like you know I mean some of that really really affecting the planet I mean obviously there's all these little plagues like Ebola and stuff was popping up like in hot spots around the world but but a real but but but never like a like an engineered man-made play and again it goes back to certain people kind of think that Co leaked from one of those labs in China whether that's true or not people are thinking that because they're on the level of like the bioengineering is out of control and this and he's and it's certainly a it's certainly a real possibility and Pete Milligan was way ahead of the curve thinking about this kind of stuff and yet he combines it with comic books in a way that I think is so brilliant and lovely as you mentioned and we were talking about the balloons like apparently the way that SKREEMER and this scientist of his have decided that they're going to launch this insane bioengineered virus into the world is by releasing just I guess hundreds of thousands of balloons into the air and these balloons have designs on them that frankly look kind of like Captain America's shield yeah a lot like Shi yeah yeah and these balloons and it's such a weird pop art absurd comic Booky decision and the cover to issue number five is another brilliant cover where you see a silhouette sort of side profile partial silhouette of SKREEMER's face with all of these balloons just countless balloons going out into the sky behind him and this is the master stroke of his final plan to stop himself from becoming obsolete he doesn't want to be a a dinosaur he wants to be the one and only gangster who rules everything and this virus that's gonna be launched into into the World by balloons containing bacteria yeah this is how he's gonna he's gonna [ __ ] take over and it's such a creative weird way to do it's just it's so [ __ ] funny yeah I mean you know what and this this so this is an interesting issue again like as some of the story lines you know keep pushing forward like you know there's more of the there's more of the story about so this is like when with Finnegan story his son who he he had another son maybe maybe his wife was too old when he had this I don't know he's pretty old he has this child but he's not able to be a good father to this son because he's witnessed so much terribleness and he's kind of putting like a lot of he's he's hanging too many dreams and hopes you you know like on this son who this is the son who later been works for works for SKREEMER and it's like the kid is like suffering under the weight of his father's problems and guilt and this and the consequences he's taken you know then later on it's like there's a really interesting thing halfway through the book where it's like they're just walking and the and and they get mugged and Finnegan can't make a choice about to save his own wife because he's like and he's kind of like I don't know how to make choices anymore because I make the wrong choice well no it like it doesn't matter what it doesn't matter what choice I make bad just's going to happen to me know and he gets kind of paralyzed and then his son Tim who's the guy who works for streamer he saves the the his mother Finnegan's wife from the you know from the you know I mean you know he hits him in with a brick and then chases them off but the look that he gives his dad like you're such a weak [ __ ] you know yeah totally the thing is but see Tim doesn't know what his dad is going through I mean like I mean he he might know a little bit about but he doesn't know enough about I mean he wasn't even born when he made the choice about the little girls and he I think he was just a little baby when you know he the thing about the twins so it's like he doesn't know the deal with his dad really and it's just like an interesting it's just the way the storyline keeps wrapping up you know then there's more of this stuff with Vicky as she's trying to like do you know the she's trying to like she's trying to consolidate power she's trying to she gets voted to be the president of the presidents she's the top dog but this other president named RoR you know like tries to kill her and there's this interesting scene where he's where is this he's attempting to rape her and there's this scene again the sex sex and the violence constantly being then he has this great thing where he's talking about like this is the thing that he says this is like he's like oh you know this is a this is a lesson of leadership don't let your enemies survive and he's really and then he gives in this thing about you know how he thinks that women aren't strong enough to lead and he says yeah he goes hey there's a gun between us Vicky but I don't need it why because I'm stronger than you that's why men will all have will always have over women because when they're alone when their when the trappings are gone when things are stripped naked and naked is like oh is bolded out it's the man who's got the muscles and the balls and that's why that that they that's what they call the law of the Jungle sweetheart and then he kicks her in the jaw you know but brutal you know and then right but then he pants are On's he's getting ready to rap it's not enough he's gonna kill her he's G to rape her first you know but then he realizes that this this rabid dog comes and and he and he and he empti that that gun so then he can't use the gun to save off the dog and then the dog just like rips his throat out what I thought was going to happen when the dog comes was which which which which which would have been more fitting because he said earlier that's why that men have the muscle and the balls I thought the dog like would have would have like like gone after this guy's genitals and and ripped off his dick first before killing him but that's not what happens I'm surprised they didn't go for that considering the world of SKREEMER maybe that was maybe that was like the tiny bit of editorial over the original you got to calm this down a little bit I mean it's hard to say hard to say you know and then there's you know and then you kind of get some sense of like how back for SKREEMER story he starts telling Dutch about how about there's no free will how that like how that like he just has a sense of like he is a slave to Destiny and it and it doesn't matter you know like you know like what happens but he feels like if he has a child things will be different he's got this great line he's like if I have a child you know then things will be different that chain would be gone I'd be free here's a great line it it'd be like giving a unic his balls back I was like [ __ ] like that's some genius level writing yeah he's saying and then you know and then it's more of this stuff where I mean you know the the the the plague the plague storyline keeps going and it's just like oh and you get a sense of like this was where the craziness happens you know is that the one guy named Madam who was the bio engineer your guy he tells SKREEMER I betrayed you because you wanted me to betray you you told this [ __ ] blew me away this shocked me this was a crazy there's this story the turn in this is isue is he says you even told me one time when you were drunk or sleeping or whatever it was that you wanted me to to to false this thing and to forget about like it it almost kind of set yeah yeah you wanted me to like FAL if the bacteria and like just kind of play along with what you're saying but not really do it do it like it's interesting because it it reminds me of and again this is probably what Warren else took from this is that in planetary the what's his name Elijah snow he puts in place something where he forgets who he is to save himself you know when it's like that like he's the Fourth Man in planetary when and he's forgotten about that and it's like this big kind of especially if how TR to find that again it's one of these things where it's like you know you didn't know what you were doing but you were putting in a fail safe to protect the future because you knew how crazy you were you know right and then he starts telling he starts starts starts telling Dutch about you know there's no choice and I'm just a victim of Destiny it starts getting into a little more and then he starts telling you this is a great little way way this this story ends he goes you know I want to tell you about the first person I ever killed Dutch Dutch is like just you know shut the [ __ ] up and let me just you know like not live around you it's almost like this Dutch is just here to hear screamers be his yeah which which is unfortunate yeah it's really he I want to tell you about the day I killed my mother that's final why five you know talk about a last page talk about a last page Cliffhanger let me tell you about how I killed my mother [ __ ] man it's like it's just a Norman biter what the [ __ ] is going on here you know not Bas but but it's that line from I keep thinking that line from Blade Runner like with Leon he's like my mother let me tell about my mother and then he like shoots the guy it's like it's pretty wild this this is it's such a wild story this whole thing is just really is man and like you said earlier Chris like it still has the power to shock and it's we're 30 years on and like [ __ ] Pete Milligan and U and Steve Dillon they were pushing the envelope so far back then that if this was published today well first of all it wouldn't be published but if it was people would freak out and people would be extremely upset with whoever published it for a variety of reasons now having said that I want to kind of disambiguate that briefly and also kind of piggybacking on what you said from the real problems that do exist with the book in terms of the depiction of Dutch and like you know the the fact that the one person of color is such a passive figure who gets his [ __ ] face chewed off at the beginning and then also I think in addition to that unfortunate aspect there's also the fact that the the one woman character of Vicky while she's treated I would say better than Dutch she still ultimately is kind of a a very supporting character who is is more passive and in the moments where she could have stepped up and been a little bit more aggressive I also found myself disappointed in that scene with the dog although Vicky gets a great line when the dog sort of starts attacking the dude and she says enjoy your jungle [ __ ] which is a nice final line I felt like that was a missed opportunity cuz I wanted Vicky to be the one who somehow saves herself and is strong enough as a character to engineer her own Survival instead of just sort of the the Deus exmachina of like oh at the last minute a rabid dog chews this guy up I wanted Vicky to have more agency there and I thought that was unfortunate so I do think there are some some threads heads of latent just I don't know I don't want to call it I don't want to call it straight up racism or straight up misogyny because I I don't think it's I don't necessarily know that that's fair per per se but I do feel like it's the fact that the the black characters and the women characters people of color they're not being given sort of full Freight to be full stewards of Their Own Destiny and I think that's unfortunate so while I want to be careful like not leveling any kind of accusation per se I do think in the light of day in 2021 this is something that the story suffers for is if the depiction of women and people of color had been more forward thinking and I think you use the word responsibility earlier Chris when you were talking about this that artists and storytellers who are telling stories about the future do have a responsibility and I think that's the correct word I think there is a responsibility to think beyond the bounds and the constriction your current social moment why doive look at the stories by Will Eisner and he's got the spirit sidekick ebony white who's a horrific sort of black caricature kind of a minstral like character I think that's a huge Mark and a huge stain on the the name of will Eisner and I think it's really unfortunate frankly that the comics industry's major awards are named after Eisner for that reason because eer was not Forward Thinking enough in terms of his depiction of race and I think that while Milligan doesn't do anything anywhere near as egregious as what happened there with Eisner and of course it was a different time I do think there are creators who had the capability to be more Forward Thinking in certain ways and so I I kind of wish that that thought had been there here a little bit more with the women and people of color because I do think the story is so brilliant on so many levels that I hate that we have to kind of give that caveat now in talking about it but I think I also want to take the story seriously and take Pete Milligan Brett Ewins and Steve Dillon all seriously as creators and as artists and I think to do that and part of our whole concept with the show is that this is work that needs to be reckoned with a lot of these forgotten quote unquote forgotten comics from the 80s and I think they need to be reckoned with for good bad and in between and sort of looked at in the light of day in terms of what's brilliant and what's amazing and then also yeah are the things where contemporary storytellers look at it and say yeah you know what we could do better in these aspects and and it's not fair to them and I don't think it gives proper respect to the creators to just shrug it off and say like oh it was just the times you know who could have known better well like Jack Kirby knew better than will Eisner back in the day Jack Kirby didn't draw characters that look that way and so I think it's not enough to just say like oh no one could have known I I think you have to like look at the work and and just ask like what's the responsibility that where the artist fell short and I think that's the one part here about SKREEMER that bums me out because I think the story is so brilliant in you know virtually every other way You know it's interesting you say that because you know there is that one issue of like was it weird fantasy weird fantasy or weird SC whatever that one really famous like EC Comic that I think that Ray Bradbury wrote where it's like that Black guy that Black astronaut goes to that society and like there's an Asimov story about that too Yeah It's like you know there there were people at the time who were you know trying to shine a lens on the way society was injusticed in things I mean look you're definitely right it's interesting that that again Karen Berger and Shelly Roeberg Bond were editing this because because like I feel like why didn't they say in that scene where Vicky's being she's being victimized I mean look here's a quick fix on that right It's like yeah Exactly exactly so the quick fix is you show me the dog and it's like chewing on something right when that scene begins you know like like in terms of like when Richard pulls her out of the thing they have their little fight and blah blah blah he makes that like like he makes that line about yeah you know like like like we got the balls and the muscle to make these choices and then you just and you just show like oh here's the dog like like whatever it is like there's the shot where they hear the dog right they hear the dog I mean to me the the next panel is why isn't she you know what and and his face and he's turned away from her it's like it's on page 16 he's turned away from her what you know what the thing to do is she kicks him in the balls right there you know and then he stumbles and that is what allows the dog to jump on him

the way that is Yeah yeah she could kick him in the balls and she could grab the gun and you know she could shoot him once if she wants and then let the dog chew you know chew on him for a while

Like she could have taken a lot more agency in that moment yeah I mean yeah

 I mean it could have been really simple just you know it's just two panels you know it's it's like oh you know that panel on the bottom it's like she's like sees... Like, to me, the thing would be a shot of we're looking over her shoulder you know like looking at him and he's not looking at her anymore and then the next panel is her foot is you know is connecting like with his nuts and then and then the next page it it can be the exact same thing that's when the dog jumps because he's been kind of like I because he at that point he's like probably bending over and he's in the eyes of a dog

oh that somewhat subservient manner you know like Yeah so then so then I can jump at you and eat you I mean it's really simple you know just to but I mean I mean the thing is it's like I

I just kind of feel like he could have had a little I you know I mean I get the Finnegan thing with the Finnegan's Wake so that character's got to be white because that's like the Irish background

Right but like but like even the guy the scientist guy named Macadam like yeah could have easily been a Black dude easily he could have been Black he could have been Asian it just would have been like could been Indian an a quick pop and all of a sudden it's like oh this like this feels a little different you know totally true no no to totally true yeah so yeah you know it's interesting to to say that so and so then it takes us up to issue six which is you know that we get to this whole thing about why like this is the unraveling of SKREEMER's kind of motivation and how he operates you get this sense that you know the first person he killed is his mom but not through murder but just through childbirth like he killed mom by being born and the father can't cope with it because it's like his m is what it is he's already married he's killed his first wife and then he's going to throw SKREEMER as a baby like down like off this banister and he's probably gonna fall like five like that's some more criminal just brutal kind of you know like tease of an image you know but you get this sense that SKREEMER is like I have a magic ability so this kind of dovetails in the superhero comics in a way where it's like he's like I can see the future I've been able to see what my destiny is and all these events that have happened I knew they were going to happen I knew this was going to happen to you you know right now And he and he's like spelling out how Dutch is going to behave and stuff like this and he just tells this interesting story about how you know he's walking around and he's like seeing you know people in his life and why he did do things and didn't do things like this great thing where he says like his father like he's able to read he's was a is a divination from like intestines and blood and [ __ ] like that Yeah yeah yeah yeah created I mean Yeah wild This is wild and his dad was a pathologist and dealt with dead people and so he talks about his father and like his father was like doing autopsies and [ __ ] like this and and how his father even the moment that SKREEMER was conceived was when his dad brought a prostitute back to his place of work where there were corpses and he and this prostitute they [ __ ] on a slab where there were corpses all around them and that's how Vito Skreemer was conceived That's crazy that's just talk about a birth story Yeah it's a I mean you know And then it I mean and then the story just kind of rolls out with the with the with the rest of what's happening I mean you know SKREEMER has this vision about about how he's supposed to die and who's supposed to carry his baby and stuff like that you know and he's having this whole argument with Dutch and Dutch is just questioning you know why are you even tell me this like a this point like so so you let me get my face eaten off because you don't even believe in choice you think that everything is predestined and it interesting because you know like he's not making like like SKREEMER is not making any choices throughout in his mind he's making no choices throughout this whole life he's just he's letting the river of destiny take him to where he's supposed to be and that is like counter to what these other people think like no dude you can make choices to live or die and you know that that's it's all cross cutting with with Vicky like taking like she's storming like like SKREEMER's his palace this weird ass palace and SKREEMER he does is all playing out the way he said it was gonna play out until he runs and he gets shot in his arm and he makes this jump he's shot by Vicky which he which he which he saw like years 20, 30 years ago he knew this was gonna happen yes but he's supposed to fall to his death but he doesn't follow it his death he survives and it shocks him and he's like oh my God I am able to now break the the cycle of life that I've seen and he feel there's this great shot like on page 22 where he's like smiling in this car as he's escaping Yes And it's kind of like you never see him smile or show any emotion throughout the whole book except for on these two pages you know and this is when you know like when Timmy Finnegan is with you know like the woman who SKREEMER has the sex toy what's her name is like Lorraine to bear his child and then the child you think the child's not going to be born But it is born and it's not …a still birth But he shows the child to SKREEMER and SKREEMER is broken and he and then the woman's like Look child apparently yeah she's like Take your monster away yeah take it away and he like leaps to his death with the baby in his arms and it's nuts What's crazy is as brutal as this book is there's that scene where… someone's had their intestines put out where they're hanging by a meat hook and all and their face is getting eaten off and they're not going to show us what the baby looks like Yeah it's a really interesting choice Actually now Yeah you're right don't show us the babies what it looks like and he leaps to his death and the baby and he dies and the baby dies obviously the baby dies and you find you know and then you find out that you know that that Vicky becomes the King President of the Presidents she's kind of trying to reconcile with Dutch but he's like "[ __ ] I ain't got time for you" and he just steps He's never and again he's got no real agency like this is the scene where he wants to be the man He shoots her in the back of the head you know And he becomes King but that's not what it is and then the final pages you know when the final beat is second final beat is Timmy Finnegan has brought you know this the sex toy from SKREEMER to his house and he kind of nurses her back to health and falls in love with her and she has the baby who is telling the story and that's crazy because we never meet the narrator We never meet the narrator He's crazy So wild You're right that's really a fascinating choice And then and it brings it all back to FINNEGAN'S WAKE and the sort of the song and the book by James Joyce But the actual song here that has been this recurring motif throughout the whole story and like the last few lines of the story kind of point to how literary this is and to me that's one of the more just compelling things about this is what a interesting and unique mashup this is between such a literary approach to storytelling with all the allusions to Joyce etc. and something just so horrifically violent it really does feel like A CLOCKWORK ORANGE is one of the only comparables I can kind of think of that sort of brings to mind some of this just this combination you know intellect and a literary tradition crashing into something this dystopian and brutal and aII But at the very end it's like our narrator has something of like a happy ending here where it's he says and now it's told I can leave I can dream of my grandparents I can visit my mother and father I can pick up my own child I can struggle with Vico and Joyce and get drunk when I have to I can sing the song my father and grandfather taught me our song the song of death and life and birth of drunks and [ _w#ores_ ] and the good and the bad and all the stuff in between and Skreemer, free will, God, destiny, life." Like I love that Milligan is just like laying out all of his themes on the table at the very end… in case we didn't know what the story was about which we do But I love that he just kind of lays it all out here: "Free Will, God, Destiny, Life what did what does it all mean? My grandfather would say life goes 'round in circles and is far too complicated to understand.

I would say I'm just a singer, and isn't it the truth I've told ye? Lots of fun at Finnegan's Wake." And the last image we get is a full page image of Vito Skreemer in all of his glory dressed to the nines dead, on the ground ,with a huge pool of blood behind him clutching the baby that he's waited his whole life to have born That was supposed to be his salvation But turned out to be a monster that we never got to see And now Vito and his little monster are both dead on the ground 
And our lovely happy little story is over Yeah And that And that, ladies and gentlemen, is… SKREEMER. 

You know what?  I'm just.. I wonder Just want take a look back ...I want to see if he does something interesting No no OK I just want to see if he ended every issue with a shot …A full page? Well, no a shot of SKREEMER ...But he doesn't it's only a few of him But yeah I mean it's interesting that he I mean It's the first issue and the last issue and issue five But it's look this is such a I mean look part of our impetus for this podcast to… showcase books that people might have forgotten, of that they probably should want to read, like now that were I mean like 30 years of comics is a lot was… And in those 30 years so many more comics have been published in the 30 years you know since the Golden Age being whatever it is I mean you back up 30 years to '59 it's like right That's right when Marvel's getting ready to start and it's like there was a bunch of comics published then but the the number of comics published since 1989 the breadth I mean there's no Image yet there's like dark horse is still kind of small on the table you know there's no Aftershock there's no Boom there's no none of this stuff and no IDW no Valiant so it's kind of like it's an interesting time to see what is published… and the Comic Code Eclipse had collapsed at this point So it's really it's really only Marvel and DC you know you know Maybe some of those other books like Fantagraphics… I think First is still around or they're about to collapse soon But it's interesting to see like what is published at DC Comics you know not at Vertigo yet they're putting this out you know it's part of our talk about you know like trying to get Jenette Kahn on [our show] because she's like the publisher of the time and it's like this is one of the things that she had to agree to you know She had to look at Get here to I wonder Oh my God if we get to talk to Jenette Kahn at some point I cannot wait to ask her if she actually read SKREEMER and if she read SKREEMER what the hell she thought of it Because I do remember hearing that another incredibly provocative book that they published around this time that we probably will also end up talking about was the horror anthology WASTELAND and I remember reading I think the editor of WASTELAND Mike Gold talked about how Jenette Kahn read one of the early issues that had a particularly offensive story as many of them were with WASTELAND and she hated it so much that she said she was never going to read another issue of WASTELAND and she regretted publishing it I believe on some level But to her credit she let the series keep going and she let Mike Gold and John Ostrander and the rest She let them kind of run with it Even though she was horrified when she realized what they were doing and it was not to her particular taste I still think that's the mark of a hell of a brave publisher to just say 'Look maybe I'm not going to like everything we publish, maybe I'm even gonna hate it. But I trust the creative integrity and instincts of the people I've hired, and you know what, I'm going to gamble on this and take chance.' Wonder if it was with SKREEMER I imagine a significant percent of people reading this not being kind of horrified and just thinking what the hell are we publishing like why are we doing this you know again you know There's a lot of stuff — and I don't mean that… I don't mean that as a condemnation of SKREEMER — I just mean in terms of corporate comics it is very rare to see something push the envelope the way this again this again like pre-Vertigo where I'm sure the Mandate on Vertigo was... Look some of this is going to really push is going to be controversial but this is before that yeah and you say to yourself OK so you wrote this and you publish it and does she read the whole book does she does she look at the first three pages of issue want and go I'm out I'm checking out totally totally the [ __ ] out is y'all gonna just take me on a ride that like I don't need to go to and again you know I got this when I was a teen I don't know how many comic shops are like enforcing that from mature reader thing and not letting like you know because they really can't because they're just trying to make a a buck you know and just exactly so they're gonna let buy whatever they want because it's such it's such a niche medium it's such kind of like niche publishing you know where it's not it's not at a bookstore where you know someone's gonna get launched and hard cover and and paperback and it's gonna make a bunch of money and and if you're in there then you're gonna bring a like there's all other type of read going to come into like a Barnes & Noble at the time or B. Dalton or whatever the hell it was at the time but a comic shop is such a unique audience that it's like you can't enforce these kind of like you know don't read this if you're under 17 kind of thing but obviously this is a book that needed that but it's crazy it's crazy yeah I mean you're right my comic shop when I was a kid certainly did not enforce that because I bought SKREEMER off the rack like we were talking about and I was probably 12 or 13 at the time and I absolutely was able to buy this I think if I have call I think SKREEMER may have been a book that did actually get some comic shops in trouble I have a a vague memory of reading an article in THE COMICS JOURNAL where I remember they were talking about some books that had gotten some retailers shut down or investigated by police and I think if I recall SKREEMER might have been one of them because I remember THE [COMICS] JOURNAL publishing this particular image of the crucifixion of Dutch where the rat eats his face from issue one of SKREEMER I remember this being published in the journal and it was part of this story on sort of like problems that DC was having with some of their books and I think in in fact that might have even been the reason why DC ultimately told Rick V that he couldn't do this last story he wanted to do on SWAMP THING where Swamp Thing went to go and met Jesus at The Crucifixion and if I recall V he he quit he quit or was fired around that time and they took SWAMP THING out of his hands because he had this final story that he wanted to do where Swamp Thing meets Jesus on the cross and I don't know I think it was right around this time and I think that perhaps SKREEMER and some other books might have caused some trouble at DC we'll have to go back and like look and do some research it's interesting because you know you have to say to yourself comics are showing up in the Bible Belt you know and if if this is coming up in the Bible Belt or just just or anywhere smalltown America then there's going to be those decency claims and indecency you because this is time like I I don't think the NC I think the NC-17 rating had just was coming out around this time I think that movie What's it call it there was that movie about Anais Nin and Henry Miller that kind of really put the NC-17 thing on the map I think that was a n i can't remember the name of that movie right now but but but that's that came out of like 199 Was that Henry… Was that HENRY AND JUNE? June, yeah Yeah And that was like one of the that was a one of the movies that forced or that put the NC-17 thing you know because there was these claims for like these decency and moral what is it it's not a obscenity it's obscenity laws is what or and you know someone could charge you with obscenity obviously if you're going to put something like this in the comic store where where obviously the general public is thinking comics are like you have ARCHIE and SUPERMAN and you know and SUPER FRIENDS and next you and SKREEMER's next to that you're like what the [ __ ] is this [ __ ] is this comic shop om you know we to you down for you know again it goes back to your thing THE TEN CENT PLAGUE in terms of like you're trying to like poison the [ __ ] youth with with some [ __ ] like this because this is really y I mean as bad as all the EC Comic [ __ ] was this is on a whole another level a whole another level Yeah it's true yeah it's totally true really wild yeah so I mean so do you have any so are there any final thoughts you want to put out on SKREEMER, Peter Milligan, and what he's doing? Yeah, I mean I just want to say… I think this is… although not perfect but what a story is and yes there's a lot of issues as we've discussed that you could certainly talk about that are things that could be done differently or better in some ways with SKREEMER just overall this is a very serious piece of work that has a tremendous amount of stuff about it that is impressive along with being transgressive and boundary breaking like we talked about The art is at an incredibly high level the storytelling from Ewins and Dillon along with the design work the acting of the art just just so much of this is just done at such an incredibly high level and it's so ambitious And I think that's something that we're going to probably come back to again and again on COMICS ROT YOUR BRAIN! — especially as we discuss [more] comics from the '80s, because, you know, you and I read a lot of comics in the '80s, Chris, and I think we didn't realize at the time what a what a halcyon time and what a golden age the '80s really were for comics But I think it really speaks to when there are movements in the air artistically how that ambition and that sort of hope and potential in the air becomes kind of like a wind that lifts up everybody it's sort of like this rising tide lifting all boats But not just in the terms of like sails or anything but just in terms of artistic possibility and artistic imagination because this is coming in the wake of WATCHMEN, DARK KNIGHT, MAUS and all those things happening a few years earlier And this is at a moment where the potential for comics not just being for kids anymore feels I think truly limitless to the creators who were in that orbit and you can see Milligan, Ewins, and Dillon taking full advantage of this And this is their big break on an American comic for DC Comics It's their first work for the publisher and good lord are they swinging for the fences And this is just an extraordinarily ambitious piece of work and I think you just don't find that many comics that even try to do half as much as Milligan is doing storytelling-wise with SKREEMER here And I think it's something that should be remarked upon and noted that for the for the fail… for all the failings of the story, there are also considerable tremendous successes And I think that's exactly what I wanted us to be able to do on the show here is, like I say, kind of reckon with this work that that exists that's out there that maybe not a lot of people are talking about And just kind of hold it up in 2021 [and now 2024!] and just say what is brilliant here What's good bad and indifferent and in-between And I think there's a lot in SKREEMER that's amazing and right down to the design and these incredible covers And I think if you're curious at all about this batshit story you've heard us talking about here, I would wholeheartedly recommend that everyone go read this Because we've only scratched the surface in some ways In terms of the bizarreness and the storytelling and the thought that's gone into so many levels of this book, so I just I think it's a work that everyone should look at and be familiar with Because it's not a minor work… I think it's a fairly significant miniseries from DC in the '80s I think it's a work that should be remembered and talked about because there's a lot going on here that you don't see very often in a comic book No I you know what? I agree with everything you're saying I feel like you know it's one of the things that like even today where you're pretty you can pretty much publish what you want if you have some stature maybe through Image right? Like I mean I don't even feel like most of the Image books that like you know like the non- I mean look there's a lot of interesting kind of like science fiction stuff coming out of Image a lot of it is like is like adventure-science fiction or action-science fiction And this kind of like post-apocalyptic kind of like you know  it's like a fugue type of storytelling telling that I there's I think there's very few writers who are able to approach this type, this level, of storytelling and what he's trying to say in the comics And you know it's not… This is something that I don't think… again, it wouldn't translate well into a TV show or a movie, and this wouldn't work wouldn't work as a novel I don't think I think it's one of these few again the few things that work solely perfectly as a comic and that's above again I'm not going to take away anything that we were saying is problematic I do feel that all the good things far far outweigh the you know the pros… the problematic stuff with it …it's not even really problematic I mean, it's problematic it's, I think from our lens, but then again some of the violence is problematic maybe from from any era's lens Yeah but it's but look it I mean I you know Peter Milligan like I like remember his name more from like SHADE, THE CHANGING MAN you know like more so than this and I feel like you know this is him kind of like and SHADE is like a that's a superhero that he kind of like put into the Vertigo mode and kind of like altered up and I kind of feel like again these characters who are able these creators who are able to like do stuff whole cloth on their own without any kind of like IP-driven stuff I think they're always able to kind of like tread different ground that is more in tune with what really turns them on as creators and artists than 'I'm just trying to service like some corporate IP now' granted you know corporate IP like again SHADE SWAMP THING man s MYSTERY THEATRE you know to name a few like ANIMAL MAN you know like aren't these kind of like you know corporate shill work but this is a different kind of thing I mean it's you know I mean I don't think that the that THE INVISIBLES is able to be published unless this book is out I don't know if most most of stuff that that comes out of Vertigo is able to come out unless this is out because you know four years before Vertigo you read this and everyone is like we can do this at DC we can I like if Pete Milligan could do that like oh [ __ ] we can do literally just about anything anything And it's testament to Karen Berger like finding these British writers who could… and artists who could bring something new to the comic world because you know that Marvel at this time in the late '80s was shutting down their Epic line you know I think the last truly long epic series that came out was AKIRA and I think that only it was so was such a long-running series because there was so much content I think if that was a shorter book they would shut epic down like a long time before that I don't know have to do with the bankruptcy stuff that was going on or other kind of like weird kind of like publishing move things I don't know how successful books like DREADSTAR were it wasn't that successful because because he moved it to first after he took it away from you know after Epic got shut down so I just think that that the Epic wasn't the thing that Marvel was maybe trying to do and it's I I don't know maybe just because Archie Goodwin had left I I I'm not sure all the back on that but I feel like this was this was laying the ground for what what '90s comics could be because I feel like so many books that we love in the '90s like you know dustr Bic like does STRAY BULLETS exist without this book do so many books that that were these independent things do they exist without something like SKREEMER like I mean ballsy you tell me it was up for like this award like if this book came yeah this book came was under the radar and no one watched it or no one sorry no one read it you know that's a for sure but for but for it to win a major award is is giving everyone license to go we can like explode what's in our brain and tackle stories and tackle subjects and themes that that we maybe couldn't do we didn't think we could do in comics you know no 100% 100% and tackle them in a way that's so brutal and explicit and yeah the themes are the heaviest themes of like, you know, existence, life, death, morality I mean this is the heaviest weightiest stuff you can tackle in fiction and Milligan goes there and he doesn't shy from it he doesn't hesitate and him I should say Milligan, Ewins, and Dillon and Ziuko ...they all go there and actually we haven't mentioned the letterer Tom Frame but it's hand-lettering and the lettering looks terrific and you know Love me some hand lettering And it looks great like the whole team did it just an Immaculate job it's an incredible piece of work and yeah and to everything you're saying I think they blew the doors wide open and I think it really did pave the way for a lot of stuff and I will say my final comment will be that I know I've heard Grant Morrison talk about Pete Milligan and just to your point about THE INVISIBLES I'm pretty sure that Grant and Pete were friends and you know they knew each other well but I've heard Grant talk about how Pete Milligan was and probably still is one of his favorite writers and Grant Morrison really really loved Pete Milligan's writing and thought very highly of him and I remember hearing Grant Morrison say that he thought ENIGMA the miniseries that Milligan would go on to do later for Vertigo, Grant Morrison holds that up as one of the greatest miniseries, one of the greatest comic book stories ever

I've heard him talk quite lovingly about Pete Milligan's ENIGMA and you know, that really shows you that Milligan, I think in a lot of ways, is a lot of... I don't know  
he's a lot of writers' favorite writer but even if his stories and his work never

it never got the mainstream sort of acceptance of like a WATCHMEN or a DARK KNIGHT

I think Milligan, sort of like Jamie Delano, was one of these British writers that people in-the-know

realized was the real deal -- and is the real deal — and is a writer of considerable talent, 

and was putting out… and, you know, perhaps is still putting out …I haven't read his work recently, so I can't speak to it, but I think the feeling was clear amongst those who really understood comics — and his fellow writers — that Pete Milligan was a major talent, and I think SKREEMER really really illustrates that beautifully, along with being a tremendous testament to the work of Brett Ewins and Steve Dillon. [Music fades in]

And I know that Milligan and Ewins did one other sci-fi gangster-ish looking book that I think I have a paperback of it, but I don't think I've ever read it, and it was called JOHNNY NEMO and it was a book that was published in the UK... Oh, I remember seeing that
...Yeah, you know, who knows? Maybe we'll check that out and do a read-through of that one day, but I just wanted to mention for the record that we are aware that there was another Milligan-Ewins collaboration out there, so perhaps we'll 

dive into that, at some point, but they're a hell of a team, and SKREEMER is a hell of a book …and obviously it's inspired a whole lot of discussion… For sure.
So I encourage everyone to check it out. OK, so that's this week's episode of COMICS ROT YOUR BRAIN! We will be back next week with some other books you probably haven't heard of, or don't remember, or, you know …or maybe you have. We will see. But, anyway, I'm Chris, and I am signing off for Steve, as well.

All right, guys. Yeah. Thanks, everyone.     [Music fades out]