[Intro Music]

STEVEN:
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of COMICS ROT YOUR BRAIN! — the show where screenwriters talk about the comic books that we love ...mostly from the 1980s. I'm one of your hosts; I'm Steven Bagatourian.

CHRIS:
And I'm your other host, Christopher Derrick.

STEVEN:
And, Chris, today we talked about a comic from the 1980s that is one of the all-time wildest comic books that has ever existed. It is an incredibly odd book called AZTEC ACE, written by the legendary Doug Moench, and drawn by Mike Hernandez and Dan Day …at least the issues that we read. And boy is this an insane story.

CHRIS:
I'm gonna tell you right now: This is the most psychedelic comic we have ever read and —

[laughter]

CHRIS:
—and I'll say this, I'll go out on a limb: This will be the most psychedelic comic we will ever read, too.

STEVEN:
Bold words! Bold words, ladies and gentlemen!

CHRIS:
Bold words! …I know they're bold, but I gotta let you know what I feel.

[laughter]

STEVEN:
So… So, what is this? What is AZTEC ACE? …In a nutshell, AZTEC ACE is the story of a guy named Ace. Traveling between the ancient world and the 23rd century, Ace, along with his pupil, Bridget Kronopoulous, and his navigator, the floating disembodied head of Sigmund Freud (!)… they struggle to save their own dimension from time-paradoxes created by an enemy, the mysterious Nine-Crocodile. And this is an unbelievably surreal time-travel story that is mind-bending and genre-exploding.

This is a wildly ambitious and incredibly hard-to-follow story that we had a blast reading and talking about it. Before we jump into the episode proper, it would probably be best to give everyone a little context on Doug Moench. For those of you who do not know the writer of AZTEC ACE, Doug Moench is one of the most legendary writers in the history of mainstream comic books.

And, Chris, do you want to set the table for everyone on just who Doug Moench is? By the way, for those of you wondering, that is how you pronounce his name — Doug Moench — it rhymes with "bench;" it's just spelled in a way where you may not think that. …So, Chris, who is Doug Moench?

CHRIS:
OK, so Doug started off his career in the 1970s. He wrote for those Warren magazines like EERIE and CREEPY before he got plucked by Roy Thomas to work at Marvel where he first wrote the definitive run on SHANG CHI: MASTER OF KUNG FU. And then he was known for co-creating MOON KNIGHT. And then he did a long and very memorable run on BATMAN for DC Comics.

STEVEN:
Yes. That's right. And a lot of people consider Doug Moench to be the signature writer of the Bronze Age at Marvel Comics. …Along with Roy Thomas, there was no one else writing more comics per pound than Doug Moench. For about a decade or so, he was just doing an unreal amount of work. He was a supremely prolific writer. Crazy workload. And, yeah, he covered a wide variety of genres. And material. And, you know, AZTEC ACE was sort of his opportunity to jump in on the action of the indie comics movement of the '80s. And as a lot of other pros were jumping into the indie world, Doug Moench took this idea for AZTEC ACE over to Cat Yronwode and Dean Mullaney, the publishers at Eclipse Comics, who we've talked about on this show before. Go back and check out our episode on SABRE. But Eclipse Comics was really ahead of their time and progressive when it came to creator ownership. And that was a very smart spot for them… for Doug Moench and his collaborators …to take AZTEC ACE. And you can see that they were given an unreal and extraordinary amount of latitude with this story, as we talk about ahead. I don't know, Chris, do you have any memories of this discussion that we had about AZTEC ACE?

CHRIS:
This was absolutely one of the wildest books we ever read. I mean I think the people over at AMAZING HEROES summed it up best. They said this series is a strange cross between DOCTOR WHO and THE ILLUMINATI [ILLUMINATUS] TRILOGY. And I'm gonna tell you right now: It might've been better if I'd have had some [magic] mushrooms when I was reading this. Because I might've been able to understand it, like, a little more. [laughter] Now here's the thing: I'm not saying people shouldn't read this book. It's very compelling. As soon as you start reading it and putting the pieces together in your head, it starts to become more and more fascinating. Like the thing I remember the most, Steve, when we got through with those three issues, I actually wanted to read more [of the series], because it [finally] all started to fall into place.

STEVEN:
Yes, I remember feeling the exact same way. It is such a head-trip but very much worthwhile. And, you know, folks, when you hear our discussion, I think you'll realize what we're talking about right now and our [forthcoming] discussion really sort of mimics the [wild] experience of reading AZTEC ACE, which really is like one big psychedelic trip. And although it's disorienting at times, it's incredibly worthwhile, and we hope you enjoy the discussion as much as we did.

CHRIS:
And now let's get on with the show…

CHRIS:
We're just gonna talk about issues 1, 2, and 3 today [of the AZTEC ACE series]. Because I had my brain explode trying to read these books, and I'm sure Steve had the same reaction. But let's just jump into AZTEC ACE. …I don't even know what to say what this is, Steve, so I'm just gonna let you say it.

STEVEN:
Yeah. Oh man, this is a challenge. This is a challenge to describe, man. This is a fucking ambitious and utterly bizarre time-travel series. And, you know, in a way, man, like… I know we both have already talked about just what a challenging read AZTEC ACE is -- it's also really what I love about comic books, because it is so insanely ambitious, and it is such a mishmash of genres and just so chock-full of ideas that you literally just cannot even imagine this being done in any other medium. I mean, yeah, you could think maybe it would be a super dense novel, but really there's like something that feels very much like just the sheer weirdness of this thing feels so pure to the comic book experience that some of the only comparables I could think of for this series, I think, would be something like THE ADVENTURES OF LUTHER ARKWRIGHT, which Bryan Talbot did—

CHRIS:
Yeah, yeah.

STEVEN:
—you know, over in the UK. And it also dealt with time travel in an incredibly dense and hyper just… novel… and wildly ambitious story. And I feel like AZTEC ACE is the closest thing to LUTHER ARKWRIGHT that I've seen from American comics. And it is a challenging read, to say the least. I think we talked on the phone after we read the first issue. And we both were just like, "Holy sh!t! That was like an intense psychedelic drug trip! And it's going to be a tough one to describe on the show." So, all right, let's just, let's try. Let's try, though. You've got notes...

CHRIS:
Yeah, look, I've got notes, but I don't even know if they're any good, I mean, this... So this is what I'll say: This is a time travel story in the vein of QUANTUM LEAP where the lead character, AZTEC ACE, whose name is Caza -- and he's not even Aztec; he's actually from the 23rd century -- but you meet him back during the height of the Aztec Empire where he's... That's kind of his homebase where he is trying to stop time paradoxes from whatever, the 1200s, 1200 AD in Mexico. And that's about all I can really say on what the story is about, like in a broad sense, you know?

STEVEN:
Yeah, yeah, well he's... I think the QUANTUM LEAP comparison, that's a good idea. The QUANTUM LEAP comparison is something that, at least, that people can kind of wrap their heads around a little bit, if they're familiar with that show. But this thing, actually, it also says that it starts, or it says it began after an opening sort of prologue in Aztec times, which we can talk about in a second... It flashes forward to San Francisco 400 years later. And we see that our guy, the titular Aztec Ace, he is a private investigator, in kind of a "noir" ...hard-boiled fashion, in San Francisco 400 years after our opening. And he's a private investigator named T.A. Zec--

CHRIS:
Yeah. Yeah.

STEVEN:
--Which, of course, if you rearrange those letters is Aztec and T.A.Zec is just hanging out in his office dealing with like noir private-eye shit. But then we realize that there's actually a supernatural element to it, and he's literally got a demon in his office. And he's dealing with the ancient God, Quetzalcoatl... [incredulous laughter] and it's like supernatural... it's supernatural fucking "film noir" private-eye shit combined with, like, Aztec time-travel. It's like DOCTOR WHO… It's like DOCTOR WHO mashed up with, you know, a noir story--

CHRIS:
It is like DOCTOR WHO... totally like DOCTOR WHO with like the ILLUMINATI [ILLUMINATUS] TRILOGY, right?

STEVEN:
Yeah, it's got a very DOCTOR WHO kind of thing to it I mean you know the whole thing starts with like an Aztec ceremony and Aztec sacrifices, and our main guy, Aztec Ace, hanging out with some woman in Aztec times. And then we've got this crazy... And she's, like, bathing with some naked servants in, like, a pond, or in like a...in just, you know, it's... [laughs] Please, you jump in, jump in.

CHRIS:
Yeah, but the thing about it is... that you meet him, he's in Aztec land, you know, a scene out of like APOCALYPTO kind of thing, and in his little sanctum, he has this time travel device, which is called The Ace. And he's with this woman named Bridget Kronopoulous who he's ...and there's a paradox happening right now where he has to go back to the San Francisco time period to get this statue of a snake that he needs, to help like complete this Aztec ritual that's happening that same night.

STEVEN:
Right.

CHRIS:
And then it's like... So it's kind of flashing back to tell you how he first met Bridget, but it also was to... It's like, you know, the thing about this story... So ...we're gonna go over the place, like... You know what? No one can follow what we're saying, because what this is is: This is a nonlinear zigzagging story--

STEVEN:
Yes.

CHRIS:
--and the plot line is going... it's, like, doing these loop-the-loops in a way that I don't even think it makes sense to try to, like... The first 20 pages of this, I didn't even understand, like, the timeline ...like what was happening in the narrative.

STEVEN:
Right? Well, it's very difficult. It's like almost impossible to kind of keep up with it. Like you just said, it's flashing back. But, of course, we actually mean it's flashing forward to San Francisco. But that's like a flashback, in the sense that, technically, it happened chronologically for the character, before. But it's in the future. Yeah.

CHRIS:
But it's in the future of where we are. And it's just like, you know, like I mean, I don't even know what he's trying to do by telling this story this way, but the thing is is that... the thing is you read it... While you're reading it, there's so much text on the page [laughter] -- it's on every page [laughter] -- it's probably, I mean, it's so dense, it's not even funny. But I'm not saying this to say, like: "Don't read it". (Oh, and also, there's a collected version, which we'lll put a link in; hopefully if this comes out the right time you can get on Amazon a collected thing the first 15 issues hardback.) ...But it's kind of like you read it, and you're kind of pulled through this weird this fugue of a story that it begins to make sense once they get out of... Like, you understand what they're doing in San Francisco in the film noir story. You go, 'OK, I get that'. This is some Sam Spade-type of thing [iconic noir detective from THE MALTESE FALCON]. And then they go back in time to go back to the time of the Aztec thing at the beginning, but then they kind of stop. And they're getting chased by these guys called the Ebonati. And then they've got to go to like the 1800s... Or they go back -- like, I can't even remember what happened, and it's like -- I was actually taking notes of what's going on!

STEVEN:
Well, wait wait, hold up -- When they go back to Aztec times though, let's not forget: They actually witnessed... They witness a human sacrifice when they go back to Aztec--

CHRIS:
--Sacrifice! Oh yeah. Because the statue that they need from the 1940s helps the sacrifice work, but then they realize, there's still more time paradox, and they've got to go into the future to this time when Big Ben was supposed to strike somewhere in the 1800s, I think, in London, or something like that, and that's when they get... But, now, he's attacked in San Francisco by these minions called the Ebonati--

STEVEN:
Mmhm mmhm.

CHRIS:
--And I don't even know who they are necessarily are. What we find out later in Issue 2 is they're like the minions of this guy named... What's his name? Like, you know, like Nine-Crocodile? Is that his name?

STEVEN:
Yeah, yeah.

CHRIS:
...Who's from the future? He's from the same future that the Aztec Ace is from--

STEVEN:
Yeah, right. Yeah, they call him they call him Croc, for short.

CHRIS:
Yeah, they call him Croc. Yeah yeah, and Aztec Ace's name is "Caza;" it's not even Aztec Ace. It's so crazy.

STEVEN:
Right. Right. Although they call him "Acey," or the girl calls him "Ace" or "Acey," yeah.

CHRIS:
Yeah, and you know, and so when they're traveling through time to get to the Big Ben thing, the Ebonati are there. They're just like the villains of the piece. But they then solve that thing... they solve whatever they gotta do. They make sure the clock strikes, and then they jump back into the space-time flow. And they're being chased by the Ebonati again outside of the actual time-stream. I know they're in the time-stream, and they're not, like, in a specific time period. And it's like... This is when you begin to understand what this... like, the level of ideas that Doug Moench has kind of like put together in this. But you start seeing that -- again, I use this, like, DOCTOR WHO, and it's like the Time Lords are fighting him. And that shows this... There's this dual-page spread of like--

STEVEN:
Yes, the world...

CHRIS:
--Of, like, the world works on five different levels.

STEVEN:
Yeah, yeah. I've got that right here. Let me just read a little bit, because we both were talking about this on the phone, like this was one of the, kind of, show-stopping moments in the first issue: You get this double-page spread of the world and the layers of Earth, and you see Earth is like in the center of five layers of a planet, and the text says, "Five worlds popped into view as Head froze the moment, and Bridget was awed to that hair-raising silence always following a gasp. I'd sucked air with prickled scalp, too, the first time I'd seen it: five concentric layered worlds tucked one inside the other, the ceiling of each studded with artificial suns lighting the layer below. Oceans of air permitting travel from one world to the next, and even all the way down to the core. And the whole thing was a symbolic realization of time, space, history's mystery, and that which could unravel the whole ball of yarn. An onion with five layers and a nasty center, or five apples sharing the same worm-riddled core..." And, I gotta say, the lettering on this is a little confusing, because I'm not even sure how you're supposed to read the lettering going around the planets here. But you can see here how dense it is. There's still a bunch more, too. And, Chris, it was funny because you texted me while we were reading this… You were like, "Are you sure this is a comic? It's kind of like an illustrated novel…" [laughter]

CHRIS:
Yeah.

STEVEN:
--Which I can understand. One would be forgiven for thinking that here. But this goes on to say, "If you used key development demarcations to chop all of history into five eras starting with the formation of the planet after the Big Bang, and ending with my present of the 23rd century, each layer would correspond with one of those five eras. [Era] Appropriate people, albeit individuals always shrouded in mystery, inhabited each layer world. For example, Glenn Miller and Amelia Earhart lived on the fourth layer of The Five Worlds. The core is a globe of water plied by gargantuan city ships crewed by the Ebonati." -- This is all still on the double-page spread, folks. This text is all one double-page spread that I'm reading -- "...But don't ask me how it came to be; I had other problems...." And then we get into some dialogue, etc, etc. But this is like... These are... This is crazy. That's a light couple of pages in this comic, text-wise.

CHRIS:
Yeah, for sure. For sure. I mean but it's crazy, because you know, because at the core, that's where like the guy named Nine-Croc is hanging out, right? It's, I mean, like it's like this book, you have to...

STEVEN:
[laughing]

CHRIS:
I was telling you this the other day. I was telling you this the other day, and nobody has done this, but I really think somebody could do this: This book is so filled with ideas that somebody today could actually reboot this book, and--

STEVEN:
Yeah.

CHRIS:
--And the story could be laid out in a way that even the comic book connoisseur--

STEVEN:
Yeah.

CHRIS:
--could read this and comprehend. Because it takes, like... You know, I think the only thing that is as like shockingly confusing as this book -- and, mind you, it's like a 48-page book, right? [notices] It's 52 pages!

STEVEN:
Oh oh, the first issue... a 52-page first issue!

CHRIS:
Yeah, 52 pages. This is back in '83? Is that when this was? So--

STEVEN:
Mmhm. Around then...

CHRIS:
--So, it's this huge... Yeah, and that's 52 comic pages, not just 52 pages like with ads like this! [laughter] ...52 actual pages of comic--

STEVEN:
Yep [laughing]

CHRIS:
That's probably like a 60-page issue or some sh!t like this. But it's kind of like RONIN... Do you remember RONIN, Frank Miller's RONIN--?

STEVEN:
Mmhm, yeah.

CHRIS:
--where it's kind of hard to grasp like what's going on? Or maybe even that PROMETHEA book that Alan Moore did with with JH Williams the like but you trying to like like you spent so much time trying to navigate just like I mean just like just seeing a foothold on what the storytelling is and where you are and and and and and who the characters are and and then the minute you do it's whisked away.

STEVEN:
Mm.

CHRIS:
You know I mean look I like like go to this a this I mean like I think it's important to talk about forcing anything like like who would the characters right? I so just real quick. The characters like said just Aztec Ace, there's his Girl Friday, Bridget Kronopoulous, who's

STEVEN:
Yes.

CHRIS:
Tip is is tend ted to love interest. You know it's weird how he like considers her. There's the head of Sigmund Freud who's also called Tempus Fugit ...this is like... it's a disembodied head of Freud that operates the time machine called Ace There's the villain of the piece named Nine-Crocodile.

CHRIS:
There is Shakreen who is who is Nine-Croc's lover the mother of child but also Ace's former lover and there's someone named Kwan who masquerades as Ben Franklin in the past, and he's trying to like cause time paradoxes, and then there's these creature crews...

CHRIS:
Creatures called the Nightgaunts who are who are minions of Crocs from the 23rd century... 23rd century or from the core my thing is I'm not quite sure if the Nightgaunts are the ah the Ebonati like I couldn't figure that out you know? But it's…

STEVEN:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

CHRIS:
But the first 2 issues those are the main characters what they have to do like like the goal of this of what s sea says to do is I guess it's like it's like QUANTUM LEAP. He's got to stop various time paradoxes and but and the Ebonati in Nine-Crocs. I think that they're causing time paradoxes so so they can change history on some level to cause certain things to happen like this whole thing with Paul coming back as Ben Franklin like Ben Franklin like he solves this mystery of the first issue right? where he like he gets the snake but did he realizes I mean he goes back and brings a snake to the to the ritual. The snake not a snake but's like a snake statue he realizes he's 12 seconds off right? So and therefore he's got to go back again to save himself at the right time. But in San Francisco to make so he's kind of there at this you know what? yeah you know they always say that you don't want to be see yourself. You know at the same moment in time like like if you're time traveling. You know it. We call some weird time paradox. But the thing is he sees himself back in 1940 but the thing is…

STEVEN:
Right.

CHRIS:
Both those versions of AZTEC ACE don't belong then so I think it doesn't cause a time paradox if you're playing by typical time paradox rules I don't necessarily know that's where this thing about this book is it's It's a little that's ah, that's why you read Now here's the thing about it right? This is thing and look. We've both been saying. This is kind of hard to comprehend and we have notes and we're reading it and we're like what is going on but here's the thing's interesting about the story right? There's the thing that that that that that made me stop and go oh I see what he's doing to a it's hard to get to this but he's he's telling a love story.

STEVEN:
Hm.

CHRIS:
He's telling the love story in this because when Aztec is he gets yeah, he has to sneak down. You know, like when he comes back after solving a thing with Quetzalcoatl and he goes back to that moment in time where he meets Bridget in the beginning of what you know he's he's at the little pond where he's where she's. Being bathing and stuff like that he goes back there and Kwan is there's Ben Franklin and Ben Franklin takes him captive and they go down to meet like you know this guy named Nine-Crocs like in thing and when he's down here. He meets that woman named. Ah, Shakreen right? and he and there is that moment where he escapes like Nine-Crocs and he's like he's running through like None of those courses those city ships at the but the bottom and she saves him but they have this like conversation and it's one of those loaded conversations that you kind of love the way it's written where it tells you everything about the relationship but without saying hey well we are together for teen. Whatever about ah blah like it's a really interesting way of like doing that but that makes you go oh he's talking about this girl she saves him. But there's this one line there I've never just None line I wrote down that that tells me why this is a love story while what this whole doesn doesn't matter what he's doing the quantum tie par says is all about either to save Shakreen or save Bridget. He says something like the is the loss one woman made the salvation of history insignificant now that was a line that he but he'd been like he'd been stabbed by Kwan and shot up by people and he was like hanging out in like the gold meld to kind of for like a month or so to like kind of like recuperate. Maybe it was longer than that.

STEVEN:
Yeah.

CHRIS:
And he was thinking about this is after he'd been saved by Shakreen and he's having this conversation. He was like so what do I do do I go back and find Bridget but she might be dead and it's and it's like his whole motivation. Yes to stop these time paradoxes. But it's really I want to get back to you know to this woman that he loves. And that woman when he goes back in issue 3 I'm ah I'm jumping on over the place because the sword jumps open up plates but you know but in issue 3 that he goes to the pyramids like 1990 89 and the east this woman who looks just like Bridget you know, but is not her.

STEVEN:
Ah, right.

CHRIS:
And he's like and it's like again, it's like oh I'm doing stuff to save her now because is this really her is this another version of her like there's so much that I feel like I have to read some more issues of this at some time just to find out like really what the story is about but it's like I you, look, I mean, I've talked too much.

STEVEN:
No, no, it's quite okay, man, you're a you're a better man than I You're a better man than I, Chris, because you've managed to actually glean more from the story and retain it. And you're able to actually recapitulate and discuss this thing more like—

CHRIS:
About the story. So.

STEVEN:
—You know in a more organized fashion than I think I could. Because yeah I was mystified by a lot of this And as much as I did love the as much as I loved the bizarre ambition of it like it is so fucking dense And I'm someone who loves dense comics.

CHRIS:
Dense!

STEVEN:
Like I am a fan of '80s comics largely because of their sheer density, but AZTEC ACE really pushes that to a whole 'nother level and we're going to put some ah some images in our show notes for sure that will illustrate exactly what we're talking about because there are some pages from this series that are just mind-blowingly filled with word balloons and text and to the point where the art is just wildly crowded out on some pages And it's insane Like I've rarely seen a book that is this text heavy And honestly like the issues that we read that are normal sized issues Issues 2 and 3 each issue still took like—

CHRIS:
Wait. Yeah. Oh for sure, for sure.

45:09.85
STEVEN: 
—At least an hour to read Like this is… Like this is unreal. The amount of focus and attention you need And honestly as a kid when you had all the time in the world, these were the kind of comics —and particularly you know in the pre-internet era — these were the kind of comics I kind of fucking loved and adored as a kid, because you could take issues of AZTEC ACE with you and it would probably last you the whole roadtrip wherever you were going if you're in the back of your parents' car because like you could pore over this thing And there's so much to find in all the nooks and crannies and the artwork We haven't spoken that much about the artwork yet. But I do have to give it up to the artists because Michael Hernandez… Michael Hernandez who did the first couple issues, and he then later in his career adopted the pen name Michael Bair, where he went on to have an incredibly distinguished career in mainstream comics at Marvel and DC most famously perhaps working on JSA as an artist on that with David Goyer and Geoff Johns and also inked Rags Morales on IDENTITY CRISIS the big ah DC miniseries. So Michael Hernandez from these first 2 issues went on to become Michael Bair and did a whole bunch of mainstream comics for decades. But ah, he's quite impressive on the first two issues. Although I would say he's not necessarily as fully formed, in my opinion, as an artist as the artist who takes over with issue number 3 and issue number 3 switches to Dan Day and it's the same inker, Nestor Redondo, inking all of it But I got to say issue 3, for me, is a significant leveling up of the artwork. And I found issue 3 to be kind of jawdroppingly impressive artistically, like issue 3 for me you mentioned JH Williams earlier, Chris, and PROMETHEA... Issue 3, for me, feels very reminiscent of JH Williams as I'm looking through this -- and I should say JH Williams is very reminiscent of Dan Day -- because there's not a lot of artists who I would even think to compare as being like influences on JH Williams, because I think of his work as being so singular and so unique, but there are some spreads here in issue 3, like I'm thinking of this one in particular, where I don't know if this is a double-page spread or not -- it's hard to tell on the iPad -- but it's where you've got the Sphinx and the Pyramids in the background and you've got all these huge vertical panels with the characters walking in. Yeah, it's a double-page spread. They're walking in yeah they're walking in front of the Pyramids and the Sphinx--

CHRIS: 
That's still a two-page spread. That's a double-page spread. Yeah yeah.

--This looks like the kind of shit that JH Williams would do on a comic, and it would be beautiful and impressive, and this is Dan Day doing it, and it is gorgeous. And this work that Dan Day is doing on Issue 3 for me was honestly breathtaking like the amount of skill but also just sheer labor going into this book--

CHRIS:
Oh, "labor" is the operative word for this. Ah.

STEVEN:
--And what Day is doing with it, like, oh Oh my lord, man. This looks so labor intensive. Like, Chris, look at this... like what is this like statue of David-looking image here? That's like on the side of the page! Like what the fuck?!

CHRIS: 
I can't, I mean here's the thing the thing about Michael the difference between Michael Hernandez and Dan Day... Michael Hernandez is a good illustrator.--

STEVEN:
--Issue 3 is like jawdropping artistically I was just… I was blown away.

CHRIS:
--But I don't think he fully has the grasp of how to do sequential arts the way that we're used to for comic art, and I say that not... Look, he's got... His illustrative skills are top notch, his figure drawing, his perspective--

STEVEN:
Right. Yes.

CHRIS:
--You know what? He's doing equipment, like all this stuff is really really good. The thing is is panel layouts, particularly for the type of story that's being told here, there's a lot of times that like, you know, I got kind of lost on the page, because I was like I gotta follow what ...I gotta like... where am I going? And--

STEVEN:
Yeah, yeah, he had a couple pages where he numbered the panels, I think, even because of that--

CHRIS:
I remember that, yeah

STEVEN:
--You shouldn't shouldn't have to do that.

CHRIS:
You.. Yeah yeah, yeah, you... Yeah, and I was like dude that's I mean that's I mean no I mean and that's how be like editorial note after the fact you know like a do you need to like you know people because like how do we follow this...

STEVEN:
Yeah.

CHRIS:
The thing is that you're right. It totally I mean so I mean there's just like some there's stuff that happens in one and three that is I mean 1 and 2 there's just so much story like I feel like if if like issue one technically. Today or even back then could have been a four issue mini series right? like it totally it totally could have been but I realized that if they did as a 4-part miniseries and he told it more kind of like more linear but the book probably wouldn't have sold.

STEVEN: 
You're totally right. Yeah, yeah.
Right.

CHRIS:
You know, probably the forces have been done. Not just me but let me just force for you arc and then it been done and the book might not have I mean but who knows who bought it but it came out I mean look the thing ran somewhere to 30 issues right? None some or the high 20s yeah 32 few so so I mean people were buying it. Um.

STEVEN: 
Yeah, I think something like that. Yeah yeah, it was good. Yeah.

CHRIS:
But I but when you get to issue 3 like Dan Day's work is kind of... it's sad to me because his work reminds me of his brother Gene Day. The old guy who died and not that old but the art the one of the I the...

STEVEN:
Yeah, [Gene Day] he was actually quite young when he died. Sadly.

CHRIS:
--Died. But he's mainly known for doing the Doug Moench work on MASTER OF KUNG FU he must have like a 3 year or 4 year run which is like the seminal run of that book is and it's so good and if you and if you you look at Dan's work it's like... Oh, it's very very similar and like just like the aesthetic...

STEVEN:
Yep. Yeah.

CHRIS:
...is different, and the thing is that but I almost feel like Dan and but Dan probably being younger. Maybe I don't know but he's in the same vicinity as his brother. He understands sequential art. You know like just on 2-3, 2-3 levels higher than Hernandez.

STEVEN:
Yes.

CHRIS:
And it makes the reading of the book a lot more interesting because there is that one like there's that like double-page spread where he's like healing you know and it's like and it's and it's you know it's like to pay in it. Ah and it is is weird. It reminds me of like again JH Williams like you see JH Williams stuff yeah, but yeah here.

57:50.91
STEVEN: 
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's this one, I think, right here? Yeah…

CHRIS:
Yeah, yeah, yeah… It's so much like him. But it's so much more… You can follow the flow of the story like way better. You know and also I think also whoever's the C like the the way that yeah I'm not sure how much. Ah.

STEVEN:
Yes, oh yeah.

CHRIS:
I'm not sure how much input the penciler had on how things are colored but the way that the way that that first issue was colored. It helps you kind of like the paneling helps you understand what follow more. You know opinion on that page to walk through all of it. So it's helpful with like the storytelling in a way.

STEVEN:
Right. Yeah… yes.

CHRIS:
That in the first that the coloring which is not bad at all in the None 2 but it's but it's not. It's just like it's just coloring. It's not like servicing the storytelling you know servicing the art not the storytelling and I think that's kind of like it's an interesting kind of ah difference when you have a different pencil.

STEVEN:
Yes.

CHRIS:
He's he's demanding more you know he's maybe maybe saying we need to do this. We need to do this so that people understand what's happening, you know.

STEVEN:
Yeah yeah, well it's fascinating because you're right, Chris, the coloring also feels significantly leveled up with with issue 3 where like there's nothing wrong with the coloring and the first 2 issues of AZTEC ACE, but they do have a much more washed-out-looking palette.

CHRIS:
Yes.

STEVEN:
And suddenly with issue 3 like suddenly the colors sort of match the psychedelic tenor of much of the story, and they're way more vivid And like suddenly the book is just like popping off the page and with this incredible work from Dan Day. That's just exquisite. Like the colorists are absolutely stepping up And it's McFarlane and DeWalt doing the coloring here but like even the splash page, Chris, like just the splash page itself like signaling the arrival of Dan Day is just fucking gorgeous, like an amazing splash like just…

CHRIS:
Amazing. I mean, yeah, but I mean it's just 2 colors and it's like that sacrificial thing of the Aztec thing I mean it's really cool through I mean to think the thing I mean the thing It's interesting. You said that …you said it twice today you said it's psychedelic right? And I feel like…

STEVEN: 
Yeah… oh.
Yes.

CHRIS:
Ah, feel like the way the book is colored in but us let's take issue 2 for certain example, right? So there's that part in issue 2 where ace is following Franklin/Kwan and they're on that boat. You know this during the during the American Revolution and it's kind of like. And that feels like a classic illustrated comic. At that point, you know, but I feel like the rest of the book should be a bit colored differently. You know, because what's happening in the None issue is the coloring is kind of … [color] is helping us ground where we are.

STEVEN:
Yeah… yeah.

CHRIS:
In the various the reality and the time-stream you know because the part …when he's inside the gold meld or whatever. It's called the time machine. It's way more psychedelic, but when he's there you know with the woman, and he's there in Egypt, and it's at night, it's more subdued.

STEVEN:
Yeah.

CHRIS:
But it feels like a night you know and the colors are like rich but not too like it's not all over the place and this is I don't know it's so smartly executed in the first issue that the story but the story the story began to make sense to me By time I got to 30 I was like oh I see what's happening I really see was happening and I get it.

STEVEN: 
Like… yes.
Yeah, yeah.

CHRIS:
It's like I think that we as comic readers and comic lovers totally don't give colors enough talk in terms of how they help the storytelling. Like I mean I'll tell you how this today because I was watching part of Cartoonist Kayfabe today where they were had Jeff Darrow on talking about AKIRA you know and they were going through the black-and-white version of AKIRA which is you know that's ah, that's how it was originally done—

STEVEN:
Sure, sure…

CHRIS:
—But when I first read it, when it came to America, it was an Epic book, and it was colored And I feel like you know what is it but I like… I love it colored more than like the black-and-white you know, because the color because the color helps move the storytelling a lot with the storytelling, if you know what you're doing.

STEVEN:
Ohh.

CHRIS:
And those guys on that book. Did I think people think it saer waves because they because they color like a manga, but I think that it really helped with the storytelling of that because there's moments in New York I was like this showed a panel when he's like you know when ah Kanata is like zipping around on one of those hover bikes.

STEVEN:
Oh yeah.

CHRIS:
You know the backgrounds all is all speedlined out, you know, but the thing is it's speedlined out, and I'm like oh but when you add color to the speedlines when we are zipping by ,then we know it looks like it. It looks like he's blurred like the background around him or because he's moving too fast to really grasp what's happening.

STEVEN:
Oh…

CHRIS:
But's it's just black-and-white. It's just like speedlines. So there's a difference you can get, if you know how to use color, and think about how I was using the right way and that's what this guy does is the same guy so seeing 2 guys DeWalt and McFarling and they just had I know was like hey they do this.

STEVEN:
What it was it was it. The two was it the 2 got the same two that it's really oh shit. Interesting issue issue 2 yeah, you're right McFarling and McFarling and DeWalt also colored issue two yeah, that is so interesting because issue 2

CHRIS: 
And I'm pretty pretty sure it is, you know, if to... Yeah.

STEVEN:
Colors don't look anywhere near like as vivid in a certain way, like it's a different palette, and they're not… they're not bad, but they're not nearly as attractive or vibrant or kind of almost like pop-art psychedelic as issue 3… as issue 3 goes.

CHRIS:
Totally, totally.

STEVEN:
Somewhere very different. So you're right, man. I wonder how much Dan Day had to like have some kind of input on, "No this is the way I want this to be colored. Let's go for this kind of saturation. Let's go for this kind of palette…" Because I don't know what else to use to explain the difference, because it's the same colorist. Yeah, you're right. That's really interesting, looking at it.

CHRIS:
Yeah, yeah. I mean… So…

STEVEN:
Day's work… Day's work, though. It just is like it actually makes me want to continue reading the series because honestly like the story itself has left me a little bit baffled But Day's work is so good that I really do want to keep going with issues 4 None None and 7 just to see where he goes as an artist also because like. Like without exaggeration, man, like many many pages — perhaps most of the pages in issue 3 — are just showstoppers, like it's kind of a clinic in terms of masterful comic art, like it's really kind of wild how great this is—

CHRIS: 
Yeah, yeah, really good. Yeah good. You're right. Ah, you're right like a clinic. Yeah because it's funny because that is funny but it's like it's interesting how in the '80s these guys who would be doing these indie works are like I mean like he's on an indie book. He should be ah I mean he should be on a Marvel book or a DC book, hands down, and he's not… I mean, because here's the thing: I'd never heard of Dan Day until I read this.

STEVEN:
Yeah.

STEVEN:
Ooh yeah. Oh yeah, yeah.

CHRIS:
You know, ...more his brother, Gene. But then it's like well I… so you know just it's not the body of work that is limited, but it's like he should have been doing a Marvel book, I mean, there's no reason why they didn't scoop him up then no reason unless he was like fuck Marvel, because they worked my brother to death, so I don't want to work with them.

STEVEN:
Hm, yeah.

CHRIS:
You know because and there is that rumor that he worked too or he you worked himself to death... like on...

STEVEN:
That ...that was the rumor. That was the rumor, which, to be fair, Jim Shooter …denies that adamantly. So I don't know what the truth of it was.

CHRIS:
Well, he has to deny it! He has to… What's he gonna say? "I slave-labored him to death on my book…." He's not going to admit that. Probably a lawsuit, you know. Shit…

STEVEN:
Speaking of lawsuits, that's Chris Derek speaking there. [laughs] I'm not impugning anyone; I have no idea what happened. ...But it was, yeah.

CHRIS:
I'm not impugning anyone, either. No, look. Look… This statement... But what I'm saying is Jim Shooter can't admit… Like Shooter couldn't say, "Oh yeah I worked him to death." Ha Ha. He can't do that. Because you know there'd be a wrongful death lawsuit in a heartbeat. But….

STEVEN:
Yeah, yes. Yeah …yeah.

CHRIS:
You know...? But we don't know. But that's just... That was just the rumor. And the thing is, if you go back and look at if you look at that last year of MASTER OF KUNG FU, like I think issue 100 was like this double- or a double-sized issue was like that... It was so amazing like MASTER OF KUNG FU, despite what you think about the story and the fact that—

STEVEN:
It was, yes.

CHRIS:
—You know it's so like of this time of the late late '70s or '80s of the ways of depicting Asian people stuff like that Gene Day kicked fucking ass on that book. He knew he took it to another level and there was nobody at that time who was doing fights.

STEVEN:
Yeah, yes. Yeah…

CHRIS:
Like he was doing yeah his layouts for how he would kind of like construct fights on the page were really fucking cool then now you see his brother like I said like the aesthetic is very similar. It's like oh like oh it's almost like oh well these guys are in the same household and they were copying each other and trying to outdo each other.

STEVEN:
Yeah.

CHRIS:
Maybe as kids... That's why their art style is so similar, but you're right like I definitely like I definitely want to read more like I like …plus the story began to make sense and I don't know if and I think about it now is did it make more sense because the art was more like…

STEVEN:
I suspect, yeah I was thinking that… I was thinking that too, man. I suspect that that's actually a big part of it. I think that because Gene — I'm sorry, because Dan Day's work was so vibrant and clear with its storytelling, I think it did make the story more apprehendable.

CHRIS:
…Conducive it was telling me the story.

STEVEN:
But also just to go back to MASTER OF KUNG FU just for one quick second… I'm curious because you've brought that up a couple times, and I'm wondering because that's a book I've always actually wanted to hunt up a bunch of the original issues, and I've got like maybe a dozen of them… But I've never read most of that run. I'm curious: What were your thoughts on Gene Day's work, which you clearly loved, as opposed to Paul Gulacy's also legendary run on MASTER OF KUNG FU? How did you like Gene Day's work as compared to Gulacy's work? And what did you feel about you know both of them on MASTER OF KUNG FU?

CHRIS:
So, here's the thing: Gulacy's work feels and so — and he's a great artist — but but he's like he's but his work feels like he is like and this is not a slight at all…

STEVEN:
Yeah, yeah I love Gulacy.

CHRIS:
…He's like an acolyte of like Jim Steranko, right? Like it feels like that. But like there's a style to it that is just highly stylized And I think that what I like about Gene Day's work is that it feels more illustrative and it feels more… I don't want to say like more realistic…

STEVEN:
Hmm, yes, sure sure.
Mm.

CHRIS:
…But it does feel more realistic because he's it's not so… yeah, like that with head shapes and body shapes I mean like here's the thing you can tell a fucking Paul Gulacy piece of art in like 2 seconds you know like what what's that like what's that game show people used to watch? Ah hm…

STEVEN:
Yeah.

CHRIS:
The '80s "Name That Tune" [game show]… you know if they had a comics Name That Tune, hey I could fucking name that tune in like 5 seconds, or 5 notes. I can do three notes. Yeah, I mean look, you know what? There should this should be a comic book thing like name that artist, you know? Yeah you yeah you know.

STEVEN:
Ah, yeah. Right. That would actually be fun. You just see like a little piece of a panel… Who drew that? Yeah yeah.

CHRIS:
I can do it in 10 seconds, I can do it in 5 seconds. Like Paul Gulacy, you give me one second, I go, "Oh that's Paul Gulacy!" Because his work is so because it's so unique. It's so specific and it's still like This is my this is my visual voice! Bam! And it's just and it's a little more…

STEVEN:
Yeah, totally. Yep, yeah.

CHRIS:
I think the difference also between Gene Day's work and [Gulacy's] work is that Gene Day's work for the fights and everything like that felt more fluid like he and he understood how to make the fighting seem more fluid. Not you know what? Yeah I I can know just like. You know, like when like in fights in comics. You're obviously taking a snapshot of the action. You know like it's like you know it's like using a camera to get like whatever like ah and a one second you know, but just something about the way Gene Day's are where he would grab the body in a right kind of pose or like.

STEVEN:
Sure.

CHRIS:
It felt like he if like you felt the energy in the panel of like you know of SHANG-CHI's muscles and the strikes and it all felt so vibrant in a way that wasn't quite the same with with Gulacy. There's nothing to take away from Gulacy's run His run's amazing I mean I mean I mean, look, I think like… Jim Starlin like started that book and Starlin didn't have his style …his style wasn't quite there yet And it was and it was a market upgrade to go to Paul Gulacy and he's But I think he ran for maybe like two years three years I mike that can't remember what it is and then the final two or three years of that.

STEVEN:
Yes. Yes, yep.

CHRIS:
Is ah is Gene Day but it's still… It's an upgrade but particularly for that type of story for what that content was about you know, like Gulacy's work is there's some really good like Gulacy's work and like ah like his spy through or stuff is really fucking. Cool. You know. And there is that spy throw aspect to mesh with Kung Fu but it's slightly different than… I think that Gene Day understood he's possible like he knew you know like martial arts. You know if it feels like he knows martial arts I think this made me what I really want to say you know I could be wrong. Anything.

STEVEN:
Yes, oh that's that's really interesting. Well, I've just been trying to look up some stuff about ah about Dan Day too while we're talking here and Dan Day apparently did do I think more mainstream work than we realized because apparently Dan Day—

CHRIS:
Still ch look up.

STEVEN:
—has worked on a lot of Marvel books over the years, and he says his favorite books he worked on were CAPTAIN AMERICA, BATMAN, and he's also drawn covers for SPIDER-MAN, WOLVERINE, THE INCREDIBLE HULK. So, and he's been a pencil or inker on DOCTOR STRANGE, SWAMP THING, and a bunch of other stuff. But I similar to you I think was not that familiar with Dan Day's work I think I had kind of missed most of his runs or maybe he did a lot of you know, fill in work here and there I have no idea but I was not overly familiar with his work at all myself either.

CHRIS:
Well, here's the thing I mean look if he's done CAPTAIN AMERICA, If he's done BATMAN he's did filler work because he didn't do like he didn't do work on CAPTAIN AMERICA that I can recall and and I've read and I have a lot of CAPTAIN AMERICA comics and mike from throughout the '80s I have a huge chunk of those I don't read but the thing is is this right? He didn't do no seminal run. You know like he wasn't paired with like you know like.

STEVEN: 
Right, yeah.
W…

CHRIS:
Roger Stern or like fucking David McKean or anyone who was doing those great runs on those Marvel books because like I think like part of what makes an artist's pop in the '80s particularly is what was the storyline that you were doing you know.

STEVEN:
Yeah, sure.

CHRIS:
Like yeah, if you think about Todd McFarlane's work on THE HULK, right? like he did I don't I think I don't remember who was doing THE HULK first I just like maybe he's Luke McDonnell totally I'm just put out of my ass right now. But that Mr Fixit character

STEVEN:
Oh right, right, right. I think there was a guy there. There was a guy back then named Jeff Purvis who drew who was drawing the GREY HULK for a while? Yeah. Yeah, he drew it… he drew it for a little bit.

CHRIS:
You know that there with the great hawk you know and he there was bopping around. That's it they made it it. That's it that Jeff Cooper yeah so but he's one who I think was drawing it none Peter David was doing it and you know it was great. Peter David storytelling but the minute but the minute they he jumps in and does that does that does that leader does that Mr. Fixit as the grey guy with McFarlane. It's such a cool storyline with that art that you're like whoa.

STEVEN:
The…

CHRIS:
You know I need to read this and you know because the thing is there's like if you're a great artist and you're not and you're on a bad storyline. No one's gonna read it or catch it because there I can't remember like there was a there was a speaking of CAPTAIN AMERICA

STEVEN:
Yes.

CHRIS:
CAPTAIN AMERICA storyline where cap had like quit writes and there was this guy named. Ah this guy his guy eventually became like the us agent who they gave CAPTAIN AMERICA's shield to and cap was like in some black uniform everything like that and um...

STEVEN:
Yep I remember that.

CHRIS:
And Red Skull was behind like him getting kicked out like some very clone of the red skull is a really really cool like actual good storyline of CAPTAIN AMERICA right didn't have a great artist on it so people don't really remember you know too.

STEVEN:
Right.

CHRIS:
They don't they know it... Think about the Walt Simonson thing with like Beta Ray Bill and THOR and all that and that whole thing right? That's different if Walt Simonson is not drawing it. But that story that story's a good story you know, but it's ah, but it is written by Walt, you know. But you know, but…

STEVEN:
Yeah, oh you're right.

CHRIS:
…But the melding of those two becomes something ultimately different. You know. So, I mean...

STEVEN:
You're 100% right. Totally, yeah. It's totally true, and like if a different artist, I don't want to like name any names. But if a lesser artist had drawn that initial Beta Ray Bill story, the character may not have clicked for people.

CHRIS:
Right right. Exact same story.

STEVEN:
You know the exact same story just that character may have come and gone. You know there's a lot of characters that come and go when the artists don't really design them or draw them in a way that feels inspired obviously and Beta Ray Bill was drawn by Walt Simonson created by Walt Simonson and becomes a beloved figure and you know there are some really amazing artists.

CHRIS:
Yeah.

STEVEN:
Just never have done long runs on books where they are you know properly celebrated the way they should be like there's a guy like you know, somebody like Kevin Nolan like Kevin Nolan I think is a brilliant artist like you know he's an artist's artist like an amazing amazing illustrator. An amazing anchor. Amazing penciler. Just a phenomenal artist but Kevin Nolan hasn't had any like major long runs on books and really like the thing I could point to that might be none of the more significant things he's done.

CHRIS:
yeah.

STEVEN:
He did a bunch of short stories with Alan Moore in America's best comics about a character named JACK B. QUICK that was like a little genius kid who would invent like scientific and wacky inventions that would cause crazy problems in his small town, and they're like really perfectly charming brilliant Alan Moore short stories beautifully drawn by Kevin Nolan but—

CHRIS:
Yeah.

STEVEN:
—The guy is such a like world class comic book artist, one of the best of his generation, but yet he's never done this. He hasn't done like a BATMAN: YEAR ONE, you know, he hasn't done something where you're like oh that's a mic drop. You know there's no mic drop. It's just more like…

CHRIS:
Right, in that way.

STEVEN:
…Damn I appreciate that man's skill and craft and the just gorgeous artwork he does, but there hasn't been that one run or that one masterpiece that blows people away that you know that you kind of wish that there was because his is so gorgeous that he deserves to have like an evergreen book like that out there.

CHRIS:
Well, I mean look a classic example somebody talking about in his pocket before it's fucking Trevor Von Eeden never had he never look when we read that thing and it was said he was the Miller's original idea to do BATMAN: YEAR ONE that chain.

STEVEN:
Hm, yeah yeah. Yeah, sure. I mean.

STEVEN:
Yeah.

CHRIS:
Material right now if he does that book that changes comic history in a lot because it kiss. Ah, but again, it's one of those things like if Mazzucchelli is doing a BATMAN: YEAR ONE, it's not written by Frank Miller it's OK

STEVEN:
Yep yep. Changes everything. Yeah.

CHRIS:
If it's is written by Frank Miller and is and it's a lesser artist than Mazzucchelli or Von Eeden is still a Frank Miller story and it's good, but it's like the melding of the two, and a lot of times people kind of overlook how important the writer is to give the artist the freedom to create something that we all…

STEVEN:
Yeah.

CHRIS:
…Kind of like believe in, you know, and just go and I feel like back to this book. It's like Dan Day; he elevated this book in I'm sure that Doug Moench I bet I bet you, I don't know, we ask him figure out send him an email. It's like hey…

STEVEN:
Yeah.

CHRIS:
So, what changed in you when you were writing this book now that you had Dan Day on the book? You know, because I yeah...

STEVEN:
Yeah, yeah, right. Because totally, man, for sure because it's like yet and fucking JH Williams the one all of a sudden to take over a comic you're writing it like that kind of an artist who can bring that level of like insane sort of like wild skill to something. Yeah, it has to make you switch up your game as a writer.

CHRIS:
Well is I think I think we were talking what we were talking recently about how you know like when Brian Hitch and Warren Ellis started are working on the authority and on the ah other book that whatever comes not the book he did but was it the authority. The one thing he did yeah the authority right? um.

STEVEN:
Authority, yeah.

CHRIS:
I mean yeah, I mean there's that like deconstructed storytelling that you were talking about. You know that that oh I I mean look yeah, yeah, yeah, because like you know he's working with I I told you at that time. Ah, he was working with Ken Lashley on that EXCALIBUR and that's oh, really, really good and beautiful.

STEVEN:
And yeah, like the decompressed kind of big widescreen kind of style that they pioneered.

CHRIS:
Work. But then he changes the book with this other artists and it's like oh I can do something different now I could kind of like e tailor my storytelling to what the artist can do and that's a thing that None else used to I'm not really mention it that much but he's talk about that a lot and some of stuff as like he would like ah you know there's artists I want to find cause what they do like does. This for you and and not too many other comic like writers are talking and giving like ah interviews about sort of talking about their work that much I mean like what what's name does now a little bit. Ed Brubaker with his little with his thing from the desk of Ed Brubaker but he kind of exclusively works with Sean Phillips so it's kind of like he's not saying hey I'm gonna do this book with so-and-so and his style is this so I'm gonna try this type of storytelling because I have this guy and I mean that's where I think I mean that's where I think where Moench is like.

STEVEN:
Yeah.

CHRIS:
Oh this guy can give me this type of storytelling ability on the page I can tell my stories like yeah because again you mentioned that page that little thing that with the with the ah the the Sphinx on that the two put that double-page up with the Sphinx that like the way that's designed. He's thinking.

STEVEN: 
Yeah.
Right, right.

CHRIS:
How do I do this. He let me wrote it in a way said hey they're in front of the the Sphinx you know, draw this, Bill, but here's the dialogues being said and do came back with these these initial sketches by Bros fucking mind he was like God yeah.

STEVEN:
Yeah they're staggering. There's absolute. They're staggering and fucking Day does something really unique. Also I should mention in Issue 3, he's using a ton of long vertical panels, like page-length vertical panels. He does that on page after page after page. And that's a really difficult thing for an artist to pull off in terms of the composition of a comics page, and you frankly don't see hardly any comic artists even doing that, for the most part, because I think it's very difficult to get these giant full full-length panels vertically to tell a story. Because, if you think about it, you're limiting the actual space space the compositional space so extremely to this vertical kind of a frame. Yeah, it's very narrow right? So like what are you going to put in there? But somehow Day figures out a way to not only make that work, but he makes it sing.

CHRIS:
it's pretty narrow, very very narrow. Yeah yeah.

STEVEN:
Like again, we're going to put some of this in the show notes. So people can see it. But it's it's extraordinary. What he's able to do with these page length vertical panels on page after page after page and like he's really like casting a spell visually that you know you don't see often on a comic page. He's treating it like a canvas. In in a way that's just inspiring and you know like ah I think a lot of the artists that we got excited about from this era that we're talking about on the show like your Trevor Von Eedens they do treat that comic book page like a canvas. Where they can experiment and and do new things and they're not just like locked into a rigid formula and so I wonder if JH Williams the none was reading AZTEC ACE and looking at Dan Day's work I suspect maybe like I definitely feel like it's one of the very few people that I could point to. From the '80s where I would say like oh yeah I can see a direct line from this to JH Williams on PROMETHEA like there's like not a lot of people like maybe you know like you could maybe say Steranko going back to the '60s evolved into like kind of like Gulacy and that evolves into sort of. Maybe.

CHRIS:
Yeah, oh for sure, yeah.

STEVEN:
What Day is doing with some of his compositional stuff and then I could see a line and a thread going all the way to JH Williams back to Steranko. But there's not a lot of dudes in the '80s not a lot of artists in the '80s doing this kind of like crazy ambitious illustrative artwork that looks so insanely time intensive. And particularly on a regular book like this like it's just mind blowing when you consider the amount of hours. He must have been putting in.

CHRIS:
Had to me that that to me is I mean I wonder what the publishing schedule was on it like was this a monthly book was it a bimonthly book.

STEVEN:
I think it was bi-monthly I'm not sure if I'm right? But that's like my memory is... We can probably check the Letters page to see, but I feel like I want to say it was bi-monthly.

CHRIS:
Yeah, it… It's crazy because I mean you know it's interesting. Interesting. You point that out you point out like how hard it is to do those vertical panels. I Just remember there's like a vertical panel the end of like the ROCKETEER book where like when with my…

STEVEN:
…s

CHRIS:
He stumbles upon the Betty Page character. She's getting like photographed and it's like ah, kind of like ah, an homage to some of her like her some of her like risque actual artwork. But I remember the page is like ah it like a narrow panel and then there's a few panels to the to the side stuff like that.

STEVEN:
Right.

CHRIS:
And it's interesting. You say that that it's like oh it is harder for the comic artist to do that because he's used to being able to like you know, do it wider and like and design wider because pages and cans and everything is usually a wider thing I mean it's almost kind of like you know nowadays when people like.

STEVEN:
Yeah, yeah.

CHRIS:
Shoot stuff on the cell phone this This is a classic example. But when people shoot on the cell phone, and they capture like live video and they're shooting it in portrait mode. It's like it's very hard for them to capture everything the right way ,because we're not used to seeing stuff that's thin like that and it's okay, just...

STEVEN:
Right.

CHRIS:
Turn to the other side and we can get what you're showing us better because you have to really know how to design an image that that's that narrow, and most people of it. No idea how to do that because nothing we do in life is usually that kind of a narrow kind of like field of view you know, but again that yeah.

STEVEN:
Yes. Yeah. Exactly. 
Yeah, it's crazy.

CHRIS:
But that's where this guy like that's what he excels he sells in so many ways in so many pages I mean he does some weird shit I mean there's that little There's that part when like there he's fighting that crocodile in the Nile when they're back in like the in the past And like the eye unzips And it's like there's these mini ships... I was like... dude.

STEVEN:
Yeah.

CHRIS:
You're at it seeing again. This is ah back to Doug Moench like you meant You're out of control. You are are like like... I'm serious: What drugs are you smoking or injecting to come up with this? Because it's kind of like here's some GULLIVER'S TRAVELS kind of like sh!t. Lilliputians.

STEVEN:
Ah, yeah, yeah, it's true. Yes.

CHRIS:
And this is like does this even have a place like in this story this the story telling canvas, But he's like, "Yeah, it does. Because I'm doing it. I'm but just doing whatever I want..." You know, he's yeah, he's he's crazy. He's crazy. He's I mean like.

STEVEN:
Yeah.

STEVEN:
Right? Really, it's nuts. It's really out there and you know we talked a little bit after we had just read the none issue last week about how if you did not know better. You would think that Doug Moench was like some wild fucking psychedelic novelist from the '60s who was writing his first ever comic book with AZTEC ACE because like surely no experienced comic writer would be trying to cram as much verbiage and as much text onto every single page as Moench is doing here, but like the hilarious thing about this is like oh no Doug Moench was one of the biggest writers in mainstream comics at the time and his mainstream work did not read like this. It did not have this level of insanity nor density to it, not at this level. It was not this out there I mean I read Doug Moench Doug Moench's BATMAN growing up as a kid for a long time and I'm not as familiar with the with the MASTER OF KUNG FU and maybe MASTER OF KUNG FU was more dense. You know it probably was in the '70s, but like…

CHRIS:
No oh no, what were you? Yeah.

STEVEN:
I mean I just know Doug Moench from BATMAN, and a lot of that in the '80s, and it was much more in the vein of traditional comics. And to and to get to this, to think at the same time, relatively speaking, he was turning out these AZTEC ACE scripts like is kind of wild to me, because he knew how to write a traditional comic arc. Ah, more traditional kind of pacing and whatnot... But he was choosing to make this just unwieldy as hell, and like it's a wild choice.

CHRIS:
Well, it's interesting because you know like this week I finally got around to this this started to read that SIX FROM SIRIUS right? SIX FROM SIRIUS. Well, all always yeah and it's interesting because it's got it's.…

STEVEN:
Oh oh, speaking of Doug Moench and Paul Gulacy..
Oh damn okay

CHRIS:
It's not nearly as dense text as this, but it is denser text than it and he does all this and he loves to do like word aims people way people talk you know like he does it in this like the head this Sigmund Freud Head has a very weird way of talking like sometimes they'll speak with like.

STEVEN:
Mm.

CHRIS:
That that weird German accented English in a way and I mean and so he's kind of an interesting kind of like a wordsmith and I feel like he knew like if I'm got to write for BATMAN or SPIDER-MAN or whatever it is I got to write a film or night. Yeah, in like in Jeff I'm going to do that.

STEVEN:
We're like fucking MOON KNIGHT he did a MOON KNIGHT he did the MOON KNIGHT run with Sienkiewicz.

CHRIS: 
Which is around the same time as this you know it's it's it. So so he's saying he's saying I gotta to write a certain way to make money. But if i' go do something that's kind of for me and for cool and and I think is cool or or or just whatever is something this for me I'm gonna do it the way I want do it that that's why I like the SIX FROM SIRIUS in this.

STEVEN:
Yes, that's crazy. Yeah.

CHRIS:
It's like there's is way more density in storytelling because he wanted to be because I he might have felt constrained in having to write so scantly in these other books you know, but again like you were saying at the top of the podcast. There's this episode. There's not a. There's not a lot of.

STEVEN:
Yeah.

CHRIS:
There's a freedom to the way he's telling the story that no other medium could really contain, you know ,and I think that and I'm sure he realized that And it was like how do I get to this exercise like a storytelling muscle that I don't get to do that I can't do in a movie?

STEVEN: 
Yes, 100%
...100%

CHRIS:
...I can't do it in television, I can't do in a novel, and I can't do in like mainstream comics. Oh there's independent comics. Oh I'm gonna do... you know, I can do... want to do it this way in a certain way that is very specific to what this market could take, because just to ah you you mentioned the stuff there.

STEVEN:
Yeah.

CHRIS:
Those in the letter column I won't talk about that for a you know like I read the letter column. There is only an issue 3 is when it begins but the letter column is actually even more the focus love this book in the letter column was which felt I identify shocking I you find shocking.

STEVEN:
Oh, I know. Yes.

CHRIS:
But I was like but there was a couple couple people were like just like we're say cook couple guys were like we don't understand half of it but we loved it anyway, and I'm like well again, you know I guess what forty years later, I don't understand a lot of it either. But I still like it, so is it.

STEVEN: 
Right, right.
Yeah. Yeah, totally.

CHRIS:
It's really interesting I think that the letter column I mean you wonder if he's like cherrypicking to make sure that he's like you trip but maybe is it. He isn't because he made some statement in there where he is like that there wasn't even like an address for like the letter column right. So the people who wrote into the letter column got their letters printed or people who were like serious Eclipse comic fans and were like OK wait a minute I'm gonna read this book and I like it so much that I'm gonna look through all the book to see where the editorial offices is and that's how I'm gonna send my letter.. It's like someone who's really impassioned about what they read which I think is true. Like I mean like despite what we're saying about like how complicated this book is I think if you I think if you just were reading it.

STEVEN:
Wow.

CHRIS:
And had like more time in the day and was' it wasn't be inundated with there's so much distraction that's in our ah in our modern day lifestyle. This book might feel like like you said it's a more immersive type of storytelling and you would be of because he bitches is a lot like an AMERICAN FLAGG! a couple of people say it's a like AMERICAN FLAGG!

STEVEN:
Yes.

STEVEN:
Yeah.

CHRIS:
And that's the book that I still remember reading so we should I mean maybe maybe we'll read that like.

STEVEN:
I'm yeah I'm actually I'm very familiar with AMERICAN FLAGG! because it's one of my favorite comics of all time and I I get the comparison because FLAGG! also has like a real density to it. But AMERICAN FLAGG! I feel like was much more of a direct influence on Frank Miller's DARK KNIGHT. An AMERICAN FLAGG! has a density to it with like in terms of like the little TV screen heads all across the storytelling and I think that's kind of where Frank Miller got that device for DARK KNIGHT which came out. Like shortly after that initial FLAGG! run and but like Chaykin's got a density to it but it's also much more like popcorn mainstream sort of friendly storytelling even though it's this kind of wild dystopian world etc. But it's still very much squarely. Apprehendible storytelling. It's far from psychedelic the you know maybe some of the wackiest things about AMERICAN FLAGG! is that ah Reuben Flagg's got a cat named Raul the main character has a cat named Raul who has like cybernetic limbs and talks and that's dope like Raul the cat's one of my favorite characters in that book. But it's not like. Oh my god what the fuck is going on I don't understand. It's just like oh cool. There's a cat with like fucking metal hands that talks. Like you get it right away, and everyone treats the cat. Everyone treats the cat totally normal, like it's no big thing, you know, but like it's not

out there, the way that this book is out there, so I can understand the comparison on some kind of a formalistic level at the time, because there's like a comparable density. But what Chaykin was doing was so much more easily apprehensible, and I think it was reflected in the way the two books were received, in the sense that like AMERICAN FLAGG! was on so many, like, kind of awards lists

and was a book that was like celebrated to a greater extent. I think it... I think it penetrated like the consciousness, or the conscience of fandom, in a deeper way because it was it was more apprehensible. I keep saying that, but I think that's the word I'm thinking. Now, it's not to say that AZTEC ACE doesn't have all these amazing qualities. Like you say, AZTEC ACE does remind me of a lot of books that I really really adore like THE INVISIBLES and certainly it reminds me in a way of Grant Morrison, and I'd be surprised... I would *not* be surprised, actually, if Grant Morrison had read this and found it to be influential, because it's... It's in the same vein as I think a lot of the stuff that THE INVISIBLES was inspired by, whether it's LUTHER ARKWRIGHT or DOCTOR WHO or the JERRY CORNELIUS stories by Michael Moorecock. Like It's a lot of like transdimensional time-travel wild just batshit-crazy imaginative storytelling. 


 And I think there's a lot to recommend it, like you were saying. I 
find the book AZTEC ACE mystifying, but yet I do want to read more, and for anybody who has a ton of time on their hands and really wants to dive into something that's going to be challenging, like it's a it's a hell of a fascinating book.

And I can see why it's fondly remembered. And, you know, the Kickstarter, which we mentioned that was done recently, to publish the collected first fifteen issues of AZTEC ACE was quite successful. They raised over $35,000 after wanting you know, they had a goal of $20,000, and a lot of people contributed to the collected hardcover here. You know you've got AZTEC ACE sketches in this collected volume by Bill Sienkiewicz, Jeff Lemire, Paul Pope, Michael Avon Oeming, Matt Kindt, Mike Kaluta, a ton of people, a ton of really, you know, awesome people contributed to this.

CHRIS:
Bill Sienkiewicz  Like Bill Sienkiewicz has done some art.

STEVEN: Yeah yeah. Sienkiewicz. So, I mean, it's amazing. CHRIS: So... So, you know, so I mean...

So, these are all people... someone like Bill Sienkiewicz, obviously, Paul Pope, I mean... interesting Paul Pope, because these people are only doing the art because they probably fondly remember the book.

STEVEN: Exactly. Yeah!

CHRIS:
You know, and I think and yeah And it's a wide range of artists with a wide range of styles

 with a wide range of like storytelling... storytelling proclivities, and I feel like again, I actually want to read issues 4 and 5 to get a sense of where this book was going.

STEVEN:
Yes.

CHRIS:
Because it's such a because like, you know, for us to say it's challenging, that's not a negative. It's just like you really got to focus on the book, like I think that, like, you know, like earlier this year people were talking about DUNE, the movie, right?

STEVEN:
Yeah...

CHRIS:
Some some people were saying Like, I was on Twitter, and I was reading some stuff about it, and... people were talking about like art film and and and the way that people were ah looking at films right now in film school and some people were complaining… these younger people were complaining were just coming out of film school… that DUNE was an incomprehensible art film... STEVEN: Hmm!  CHRIS: ...and I was like what are these people talking about?! ...But then I realized, it's not so like it's not so disposable and so escapist...

STEVEN:
Oh my God. Wow.

CHRIS:
And you sit down here and watch it. You know, but you actually have to concentrate. To me, like something's challenging, means you got to concentrate when you are engaging with it, because otherwise just like if it's completely disposable, and you don't need it, I mean I mean you obviously don't need it in your life, if you not if you know it's like what's the point like these days.

CHRIS:
So, I think this is a book that's like it's it's worth.. It's worth reviewing and revisiting and looking at because you know I read it. The first issue I read it and I just was like this is something that I do with a lot of comic stuffs and a lot of things is like the level of mystery of what was happening kept drawing me in, like I needed I was like you know what I need to know what... like this is a puzzle, I need to like to undo the puzzle pieces and put it together, and like and that kept me, and then it is, but then it kept expanding The puzzle kept expanding, I was like oh you know what? Here's his final puzzle piece.

STEVEN:
So right.

CHRIS:
Ha ha, no here's a double page spread that's going to like blow your it's going to blow your mind, and this is like a few times in that first

issue and it kept but it was like I feel like if this was if I was reading this monthly because I read this in like I read these three issues in like maybe like a week...

STEVEN:
Yeah.

STEVEN:
Yeah.

CHRIS:
And I was reading it monthly I'd probably I'd probably savor it so much more and probably read it a couple times in a month before the next issue came out because I because it's It's like you worry about what's being said, what's being lost. What's not happening. Um.

STEVEN:
So right? yeah.

CHRIS:
You know in a way that now like you almost never you almost like never read a book more than once now, because it's so they're so slight in the story that they're trying to tell and just like that like the and just the the way.

STEVEN:
Yeah. Hm, yeah.

CHRIS:
Maybe it's people's attention spans... or whatever is, and maybe it's like that the deconstructive storytelling people have done

done like you know like that was kind  of in vogue in the '90s that you know you know they the plot-lines are always slight and the
like the moments are really big. You know. And I feel like this guy has big moments and big plot and that's like so kind of like the it's an anachronism [compared] to what we're used to now. But it's  I mean like there's part like look There's the part you know when he fights like first like when Nine-Croc.

STEVEN:
Yeah, points.

STEVEN:
Yeah, yeah.

CHRIS:
Like fights those men in front of him, and he's like is he doing this to tell me how how good he is? And then he goes and beats the beast the same good. Yeah, he can't be more than 6 guys and he goes to beats 10 guys. He's like ha, I can show you how.

STEVEN:
Yeah, yeah

It's like that's like that's a cool little storytelling moment that tells you about their rivalry with without the kind of like typical kind of like I like you like the little Bond villain like I'm gonna tell you how you know what's going to happen to you blah blah blah, he doesn't do that he just shows you I'm a this is how dangerous I am.

STEVEN:
Ah, right right.

CHRIS:
I'm I'm ah, do something that you don't think I can do that? No one thinks I can do. It's just a physical act and then it's like oh you think you're that good I'm gonna do it better than you and it's like a great and and he gets pissed and like tries to have and he has his Google to shoot him you know and it's like it's really, it's it's like there's great moments in this. Really great moments in this that are like kind of like like these showstoppers in a way but it's almost like he has too many showstoppers in each issue and I and I think the storytelling awful slows down in issue three that the maybe Gene or.

STEVEN:
Yeah, but.

STEVEN:
Yeah, yes I think that's true and I mean I'm just looking at this Kickstarter they have ah images of various double-page spreads and splash pages kind of from throughout the run of the series. And man like there's just a ton of breathtaking images from throughout the run of AZTEC ACE and it looks like ah it's not only Dan Day but Tom Yeates came on board as an artist later in the run and yeah man, it's a visually overwhelmingly just impressive book. And I think something else. We should mention that I I don't think we did mention maybe earlier or if we did I missed it? is that the book is edited by Cat Yronwode. And of course it was published at Eclipse Comics where Cat Yronwode ah basically was running the company along with her husband Dean Mullaney. And Eclipse is, you know, one of the great comics publishers of the '80s and Cat Yronwode [is] a legend, a legendary figure in her own right. And at the same time she was editing this book. She was also, you know, editing Alan Moore's MIRACLE MAN. And editing a whole bunch of the Eclipse line, if not all of the Eclipse line, and so just to give credit where it's due Eclipse stood behind their creators and they gave creator ownership to their creators who were putting out books for them at that time. Which was something that you know not a lot of comic publishers then or now do and I think it's something that Eclipse Comics should be celebrated for you know that they are. They're one of the you know, really one of the good guys I would say in comics history because they published some amazing work.

CHRIS:
Right.

STEVEN:
And the fact that a lot of it is still in print or able to come back into print is largely a function of the fact that they allowed the rights to stay with the creators and not get like lost in like some terrible legal limbo. You know? So, yeah, right? Exactly.

CHRIS:
To yeah well. Oh yeah, oh yeah, because yeah, this Kickstarter thing wouldn't be able to happen and if I mean…

STEVEN:
Yeah I mean thank god thank god and it looks like for the Kickstarter by the way. Cat Yronwode was very much involved. She wrote a new foreword to the book and as well it looks like there was also a new introduction by Doug Moench himself and this is kind of interesting There was an. Essay a new essay in this Kickstarter hardcover of AZTEC ACE about logo design and comic book coloring in the 1980s by Dennis McFarling, one of the colorists on this.

CHRIS:
oh confessed anybody.

STEVEN:
Which actually sounds fascinating to me because I'm ah because I'm an '80s comic geek; I want to I want to read about logo design and comic coloring in the '80s — I'm going to want to read that.

CHRIS:
But that's the thing too be but the thing that is interesting is because Michael Hernandez to not what the thing is is that Dennis McFarling when he created the logo. He designed the essay so it's interesting to.

STEVEN:
it's a great logo. It's a really good logo. Yeah sure. Yes, yeah.

CHRIS:
The colorist did the logo art which is which to me is not like it's not like in a possibility but all word, but it's very rare for the for the color you doing that kind of but I feel like you know like he saw be He said be like I mean because his coloring styles are so so varying he said but because.

STEVEN:
Yeah, yeah, um.

CHRIS:
Super talented do with a lot of like abilities that weren't really you know weren't really like being like maximized and so they hey do you do this fucking logo. He's like for sure. no I mean like.

STEVEN:
Yeah, it's it's a super dope. It's a terrific logo and I'm just noticing looking at the covers of the none issues here that they have all laid out in ah in a row for this Kickstarter on one page and they change up the color scheme on every every single issue like like the logo is a different color on every one of the none issues different like multiple colors so like to me that's the mark. Yeah yeah, he's coloring his own logo, and I feel like that's the mark of an amazing logo when you can switch out the color scheme like that.

CHRIS: 
Wow, But just him calling you probably get somebody.

STEVEN:
Every single time and the logo still pops. Yeah yeah.

CHRIS:
Yeah, yeah, it's was a fantastic design. Fantastic design. You know, I mean yeah, it's weird. It's weird that you that you know? Ah yeah I so want to get this book. It's on Amazon for $79 comes out in August 22 was

STEVEN:
Holy shit.

CHRIS:
Which means that there's like enough if it's on Amazon that means they must have like and how that works with a Kickstarter that would be available as a pre-order on Amazon but it is so yeah.

STEVEN:
I think yeah, well the Kickstarter was a while ago so there maybe there was like a release window where the Kickstarter peeps were able to get it none but then yeah because the Kickstarter says it was being delivered in January 2019 so at this point and so it's been a few years so it must be that like yeah, the Kickstarter people all they got their copy of this I imagine and and now they're ah they're putting it out for the rest of the world I guess yeah.

CHRIS:
Huh.

CHRIS:
Yeah, well sort of so so so yeah so I mean how I have that one I ordered like ah ah I ordered a book I ordered like a getting off top of for a second but I ordered like a Rick Remender I think I ordered his SEVEN TO ETERNITY book or something like that on...

STEVEN:
Oh oh that was that was the thing he did with Opeña with Jerome Opeña, yeah

CHRIS:
Ah, pre-start. Yeah yay, Yeah, it's coming up I think it comes out next month I ordered it like a while ago like of the hardback because I got the hardbacks from for Loo the oversized the ah ah the oversized things for for that and for for low which I think is one of my favorite things. He's done.

STEVEN:
Oh wow.

CHRIS:
But yeah I'm curious to maybe if if this is that size This is like a large fill the large format kind of reproduction. but but you know what does it look like in the thing.

STEVEN:
it looks like ah I'm just looking at the cover I'm looking at the cover of this I think this might be the most. The more recent addition. Yeah, the more recent addition has a different cover than the Kickstarter like I think it's the same collection but it's actually like a different cover. So.

CHRIS:
Yeah, yeah... and and that's a weird comer. That's a really weird.

STEVEN:
it's a very weird cover and it's actually got a word balloon on the cover I think it's a panel from one of the issues with that. It's got one of the characters, but's who is that in the like in the in the gas mask there you see that character is that do you recognize? that's Nine-Croc. Okay yeah I was.

CHRIS:
Oh, that's that's fucking Nine-Croc that's Nine-Croc.

STEVEN: 
Was thinking that was okay, that's Nine-Crocs and the in that panel he's saying he is beyond time itself. That's on the cover that's kind of cute. yeah, that's it.

CHRIS:
Because that's that's the story man I mean but you you know, but you know it's interesting. you bring up Cat Yronwode because I would bring up because there's a woman who's I This there's like. Like there's some weird sexual tension in this book that I was like who let this slide like there's that moment in issue. Yeah, but it's like but it's like but like for instance, like there's that moment in issue two. Where.

STEVEN:
The... Ah, '80s comics man.

CHRIS:
Bridget is looking for the slug slime and she goes to see that that little boy the maybe like 12 Yeah yeah, kiss me. But what happens is is that he like but he squeezes her tit you know is what happens and...

STEVEN:
Oh yeah, this. Oh oh yeah, oh right? And the kid doesn't he say like he like he's like you have to kiss me or something, right?

STEVEN:
Yes.

CHRIS:
And she like backs up like whoa kid whoa and he's just like that's what you get you? Let me do this or I fucking tell my parents you broke it ear and and I was kind of like this is some weird kind of like porky topic fit going on in this comic. How did you like that slide, woman? But there's also some weird. Also some weird kind of like.

STEVEN:
Ah.

CHRIS:
Like extra heavy kind of flirtation between the like the Tempus Fugit the Freud head and Bridget. It's like it's a little uncomfortable I think I for her as a character and I also feel like you know some of those page This is like a knock of the book is that I thought a lot of the stuff with the Bridget which she's with...

STEVEN:
Right? Yeah yeah.

CHRIS:
The head and they're talking about stuff is like unnecessary because she's not doing anything for the story. She's not advanced. It's just straight up exposition or her think or or for philosophical exposition too and I was kind of like I don't know if you need this in this book.

STEVEN:
yeah, right, there's yes, yes. Oh man, if we read if we read some of the double page spreads from issue None or 3 of Bridget just talking to the Sigmund Freud head we would be here for like 15 minutes just reading a double page spread like the amount of dialogue is like mind blowing and it is a lot of it is largely just straight up. Exposition.

CHRIS:
There? yeah.

STEVEN:
And philosophizing and yeah I would agree. It's it was it was tough to get through some of that. I'm just reading here the description they have kind of like a little log line of the story in this solicitation this like press release for the new collection and it says ah. None published by Eclipse Comics in '84 AZTEC ACE is an action-packed intellectual time travel adventure starring Caza aka Ace as he travels between the Aztec Empire and his home in the none century Ace along with his pupil Bridget Kronopoulous and his navigator. Head the floating disembodied head of Sigmund Freud struggles to save his dimension from time paradoxes created by his enemy the mysterious Nine-Crocodile. Yeah, so they make that sound like OK like all right, that's a that's a story you know, but like that. That first or None sentences. There doesn't even begin to describe the sheer oddness and the the madness of this storytelling.

CHRIS: 
To tell you what it is Oh it's it. What like I mean like I mean like it's it's like trying to describe like cure to somebody in like a sentence and you're like I don't like do it in a sentence you know I mean I can take what it is in a sentence.

STEVEN:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

CHRIS:
But it does no justice to what the story is really about and and and you might and you might be like why is everyone going crazy over a Cu It doesn't sound that cool or like you you read this, You're like I'm reading that sick as it doesn't sound that doesn't sound that interesting I mean look it's interesting because...

STEVEN:
Yeah.

CHRIS:
And Doug Moench is he does this in a lot of his books. He injects a little of philosophy that he then the and and the the level of the volume of it I think depends on who's publishing it like I said that 1 line when he that 1 line.

CHRIS:
1 line where he was like the STEVEN:
Oh yeah.

loss and well one makes the salvation of history insignificant if you think about that just the way that's kind of like designed as a sentence this it's it's it's it's kind of a strange sentence design but it tells you a lot about like stuff that he's kind of preoccupy like with this story.

STEVEN:
Yeah, yeah.

CHRIS:
You know and it's kind of like that in SIX and so SIX FROM SIRIUS 2 or 6 and cyru ta. But I pronounced that and there and there's no one correcting me because I'd never heard SIRIUS I was I think it's 6 years two. Yeah I don't know.

STEVEN:
I think I think it's a I think it's serious I think it's I believe yeah it is yeah think it's serious I think it's 6 from serious. wow I'm I'm noticing just here that Doug Moench has done quite a lot of podcast interviews.

CHRIS:
I turned up.

STEVEN:
And I'm like suddenly fascinated to actually go listen to a couple of these because I'd like to hear Doug Moench talk about AZTEC ACE I'm very curious to hear his kind of thoughts. You know what? I mean I just want to hear what he was thinking. Yeah.

CHRIS:
Yes, no what I oh what I but to me but to me to me to me if he was if he was really dope. You know you do he pulled it down Kubrick and he be like works for the workspes for itself I got another.

STEVEN:
Ah shit I hope he says that Oh yeah.

CHRIS:
Amazing shit shit if he said that that would be hilarious to me because he'd be like what do you mean? dude you were all to see artist and he's like I read a book and let me know what do you think because what you think is more important than what I wrote you know for you, you know because it's all about it's all it's all about how you engage with the work.

STEVEN:
Yeah, right right.

CHRIS:
As opposed to what the the the artist is trying to like tell you. So.

STEVEN:
Yeah, oh absolutely absolutely and and by the way I having having said what you just said too. I I will completely ah reserve the right to change my mind on AZTEC ACE and say that it's you know one of my favorite comics if I read the next eleven issues and suddenly all the puzzle pieces that you were talking about click into click into space I mean maybe this is like you know what? I loved so much about THE INVISIBLES because THE INVISIBLES is like one of my favorite comics of all time. Yeah, all time. Might be my favorite comic of all time like I adore THE INVISIBLES you know, but like this is like the entire.

CHRIS:
All time. Yes, great 3 3

STEVEN:
Freaking like first ar run of THE INVISIBLES and like however, many issues THE INVISIBLES was like 70 issues or something compressed maybe into like 15 issues and so maybe maybe I am going to love this once I understand it better and am able to take it in at my own pace I don't know so I reserve the right to kind of update my opinion on AZTEC ACE. But for right now like I'm blown away by the artwork of Dan Day genuinely blown away and I'm also blown away by the ambition and just the sort of the originality and the the sheer oddness of the ideas of Doug Moench and you know. Moench had a legendary career so he's a fascinating writer the breadth of his work is enormous. He did so many legendary runs on books and this is kind of an outlier in a certain way because it's way outside his mainstream work and so it's very very fascinating to kind of be able to explore.

CHRIS:
I think you're think you're underserving him by saying the unfiltered restraint felt it's because he's like he's like pitching like.

02:47:47.79
STEVEN: 
Like you say the unfiltered unrestrained unshackled Doug Moench.

STEVEN:
Good.

CHRIS:
He's pitching like a no-hitter here in a way that I think that people coming up to bat are expecting to hit these easy fastballs and he's like Nope here's a whole bunch of knuckle balls that I got some grease on the ball, too. So you're really never gonna hit this thing unless you're really good but I I still think I go back to what I said earlier. It just requires a level of focus and I feel like you could focus since you pick up the and THE INVISIBLES that's a book that like I've probably read those issues a few times when it was coming out like I would read an issue more than once.

STEVEN:
Yeah.

CHRIS:
Like before the next one came out. You know I haven't revisited the book and maybe just yeah I don't know maybe a couple a year after it stopped because I actually don't know where all those issues are and I and I would love to get a collective version of that and just and go back and reread the whole thing because if I remember correctly.

STEVEN:
Yeah.

CHRIS:
The first 3 issues of that book were really hard to comprehend.

STEVEN:
Yeah, yeah, no honestly, the first run, the first storyline of THE INVISIBLES is a little bit "AZTEC ACE-y"; it's where like you're way far back in the past, and it starts actually no, no, not the very first run. The second run is what... In the second story arc that they do is like it's a very difficult story arc that almost I think almost crashed and burned the sales of the book. But it's like... The second arc is very difficult but then with the third arc and beyond like I think Grant goes to great lengths to try to make the series more accessible in different ways. And the final run of it like the final 12 issues drawn by Phil Jimenez is probably the most accessible version. Yeah, yeah, it's really more like it's kind of a shocking mashup of Grant Morison's ideas with a much more mainstream kind of accessible art style, and it's like really amazing and I think and Frank Quitely, Frank Quitely draws the last issue of THE INVISIBLES. So it's one you know it's another one of the Morrison and Quitely collaborations. But that that whole run of that book I mean we could do a a multipart episode about that book because that's just like it's an amazing amazing piece of work--

CHRIS:
Yeah, did... did Phil Bond do any work on that?

STEVEN:
Yeah, I think he might have done a couple issues. Maybe, I think he did--

CHRIS:
In the 20s... Issue 20 or something like that?

STEVEN:
He might have done some issues for sure. There were a lot of artists who kind of came and went on that. You know it started with Steve Yeowell, the English artist, and then Jill Thompson, I believe, illustrated that more difficult second arc.

CHRIS:
Yeah, she did some. Yeah.

STEVEN:
--And lot of people popped in. I think Tommy Lee Edwards ...I think did a small amount. Maybe 1 or 2 issues on it. And then there were a bunch of other artists like throughout the run.

CHRIS:
I thought, you know, I thought Tommy Lee Edwards did that one like... There was that like that like Vertigo like Zero [Issue] or something like that. Or that little... Vertigo sampler that I think--

STEVEN:
Oh sure.

CHRIS:
--that Tommy Lee Edwards did the art on that [INVISIBLES] story, too.

STEVEN:
Oh was it like a sampler with with an INVISIBLES story? OK OK, yeah

CHRIS:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I don't remember like how that fit into the the chronology. That's why I want to get the trade... to [read]. There probably is... Is there a hardcover for that thing, you think?

STEVEN:
INVISIBLES?

CHRIS:
Yeah

STEVEN:
Yeah, there is ...there's actually a massive one. There's a couple, I think, they've done. There's one that came out, I think fairly recently, that's just a massive like Omnibus hardcover of the whole INVISIBLES in one hardcover. However, as like, you know, people will probably be sick of hearing me say on the show, Chris, I must advise you to o instead consider reading the original issues because Grant does the letter columns himself--

CHRIS:
Yeah, I know. They're great.

STEVEN:
They are phenomenal! The letter columns are fucking bonkers. Yeah,

CHRIS:
I mean look... I have that whole run of issues. I mean I read it. That was the first stuff of Grant Morrison's that I ever read--

STEVEN:
Oh wow.

CHRIS:
--That stuff made me a fan of his. You know, and I think a lot of it was because he was doing the letter column--

STEVEN:
Right? Oh yeah. Oh, you got such a sense for his personality--

CHRIS:
...his personality. Travel around the world, gettin' sick in India, I'm like--

STEVEN:
Yeah, yeah. Almost died. Yeah. 
And all this kind of wild shit that he's talking about. I was like wait a minute, you're not holed up in London or holed up in New York or the states, right? You're like on the road traveling?!

STEVEN:
You're in fucking Kathmandu, and you actually look like you look like King Mob... What the fuck?!

CHRIS:
And you're fucking sending in this comic script to people by fax, I'm assuming? I mean I'm like, I don't even know how the book has been published!

STEVEN:
Well, you know what it was, too, I believe? If I recall, Grant took the money that he made from ARKHAM ASYLUM, which was very significant, because at the time that ARKHAM ASYLUM hardcover was released, which Dave McKean of course painted... It came out around the time of the original BATMAN movie and that ARKHAM ASYLUM hardcover was, at the time, I believe, the bestselling graphic novel of all time.

CHRIS:
Wow.

STEVEN:
Up until that point. Like it was an enormous seller for DC, and I believe that Grant Morrison's royalty checks off that were extremely generous. And from what I recall, he had the money to go travel the world for a year or two, which is exactly what he did. And so he went off and just had a bunch of adventures and, like you said, I guess he was turning in comic scripts however one would have done it at that time, traveling in the like--

CHRIS:
By fax. Yeah.

STEVEN:
--pre-computer era. Yeah.

CHRIS:
And he had to fax those to the offices or Telex. Nah, a fax. He had to fax them. That's the only way someone could do it. You know, I mean he could send it FedEx or DHL but that would've been a lot of money. The fax wouldn't have been cheap, either. Because it's a long distance phone call for like ten, twenty minutes, you know, to send all that data, but he probably didn't care because he was getting paid and probably a business expense, and all this other kinda sh!t, so you know, I mean, wow. Wow. But anyway...

STEVEN:
Yeah, I mean there are many issues of THE INVISIBLES that read as if they were written by someone who is gobbling mushrooms in Kathmandu, and you know in-between adventures, like stopped for a few hours in a cafe to bang out an issue of THE INVISIBLES. And that's kind of what I love about the book is it has a real seat-of-its-pants kind of quality to it where some issues are better than others. But when it's great, it's like brilliant. And it's never boring. And it's always just--

CHRIS:
Right, never boring, never boring.

STEVEN:
--Like a really unique experience, and it just never felt like any other comic.

CHRIS:
Yeah, yeah, we should definitely do a thing on that. We definitely... Yeah soon? Anyway back to our final thoughts on AZTEC ACE, I guess. You know, I would say get the original issues if you can.

STEVEN:
Yeah, yeah.

CHRIS:
I'm sure that you know. But if you don't want to do that then could go to Amazon and pre-order by the time you've heard this is probably no longer preorder. but you know, buy it and read it and you know where I mean you know what you probably get issues one None and 3 online somewhere. And just read those and see if you want to buy the $75 for the for the hardcover. Just if you want to spend that kind of money you know like me personally I'm toying with it in my head right now. The the only trepidation I have is just like is bookshelf space because otherwise I would get it but I gotta like. You know I have to I got to manage all that right now. but yeah I mean look you know was it was it was interesting. Read is crazy read I still feel someone could redo this and make it like work into like a like Aztec s None like AZTEC ACE 2.0 and make it really. Accessible and like and rousing and you know in a way that most comics aren't that it because there's so many ideas in this that if you parse it out like over enough issues. You know I think people would find it fascinating whereas just now it's a little like It's just it's a challenge and it's because it's so dense. Not that it's it's a bad challenge but it just is dense.

STEVEN:
Yeah, yeah, I think that's totally accurate and it's I mean it's one hundred percent worth checking out and I think you can see from the list of artists who were contributing to the Kickstarter. Like it was a book that was clearly influential and is fondly remembered and yeah, it's absolutely worth experiencing. It's it's an utterly utterly unique and mind-expanding and mind-blowing piece of work and like.

CHRIS:
For sure.

STEVEN:
So many of the comics that we just absolutely really really dig from the '80 s like it doesn't have to be entirely successful on every single level to be an incredibly worthwhile comic. You know like it's something. That's just like None big giant swing and it's in just. An audacious piece of work that is so singular I mean where else are you ever going to get a story like this like you should check it out just to experience it and I'm I am going to finish reading the series. It just might take me like a year to get through the remaining you know None issues. But I'm going to do it.

CHRIS:
Know was is this you know is it's more than fifteen issues is is it 30 issues.

STEVEN:
Is it like why? Why did wait? Why did they only collect 15 then for the hardcover I'm I'm confused. Let me let me clarify that because I yeah I thought the same thing you did that there were more issues but then the hard cover's only 15. So yeah, maybe the hardcover is like is it volume one are they going to be doing a None one.

CHRIS:
I.

CHRIS:
It can be because it's I mean it's forward to some pages. So I mean like you know 15 I mean 15 issues is kind of the maximum you could get out of a I mean get out of a hardcover right? I mean I mean I mean that.

STEVEN:
I mean some of those I think some of those Marvel Marvel Omnibus…I have more but I mean maybe it depends on the binding and whatnot I suppose. Um.

CHRIS:
Well no, well that that's the thing. I mean look I mean look like I got that that lesion the 5 years later thing is ah is an Omnibus. It's fucking huge. It's massive. It's probably None issues so that's I mean 600 pages but I think I think the cost of that would be prohibitive. You know.

STEVEN:
Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm saying right? Oh yeah, yeah, no, you're probably right? that could absolutely be what it is.

CHRIS:
No no Aztec

STEVEN:
No no Aztec I'm looking it up at Wikipedia 15 issues appeared from '84 to '85 the series ended abruptly leaving several storylines unresolved the characters reappeared in the '88 total Eclipse crossover miniseries and um. Other contributors to AZTEC ACE aside from Dan Doug mentioned Dan Day were of course Nestor Redondo, Ron Harris, Mike Gustovich, Tom Yeates, Philip DeWalt, Steve Oliff, later the SPAWN colorist,

apparently came in and colored some AZTEC ACE. That's crazy. Also colorist Sam Parsons, letterer Carrie Spiegle, and editing it all was Cat Yronwode, and of course the logo created by Dennis McFarling. That's the full credits for the whole series. It was 15 issues. I don't know I've had the same impression you did, though. For some reason, I really did think it was more issues, as well. But, so there you go, that's it; mystery solved. They apparently published the whole run. Collected. Collected the whole run

CHRIS:
OK, so okay, so so so.

CHRIS:
Right? The whole run the whole run all right? so so $75 is nice. That's that's not that bad for a hardcover like that I mean you know, look, I mean like most of these comics, that's the thing right? You know what it is, I but I bet there was those Omnibuses from Marvel and DC, they probably do a print run that's enough to bring the cost down.

STEVEN: Yes.

CHRIS:  Or they they apparently collected collected the whole run rather.

CHRIS:
And I think I think that that maybe they don't have the print run ability to bring the cost down for the initial run for these indie books like pretty a Kickstarter thing. What are they gonna do like a thousand probably need None to bring it down right? and then probably only doing a few hundred you know if that.

STEVEN:
Yeah. Yeah.

CHRIS:
So that's how why it's you know? but anyway you know I mean yeah, you know you you said it. But as usually thing I want to say what while one last thing before we get before we get out of here. It's a big swing and that the book doesn't have to be 100% right. I think that the bar on books now...

STEVEN:
Yeah.

CHRIS:
...Is that they've they've really got to kick on all cylinders, because they're not their stories are slighter, you know, and I feel like a book from the '80s or even the early '90s, you know, you could have stuff that's a little like...

STEVEN:
Right.

CHRIS:
You know, discombobulated or or not as engaging, because there were so many other things that were fascinating about it. You know I mean like I like you're not striking out the way people strike out now like the book is good or is bad. There's no you know I'm saying it's It's so I like the books are so binary now.

STEVEN:
Yeah, yeah, you're right? Yeah yeah, and to me that's boring and that's bullshit because like that's what I loved about comics you know in the '80s as a kid and everything was just that like there was such a variety.

CHRIS:
You know, looking at.

STEVEN:
And such a variety of people just trying wild shit and I didn't care if it was all successful. You know what? I mean it's like back when comics were more affordable too. It's like you get a whole stack of comics, you come home and like yeah they're not all fucking home runs. But who cares, it's like more like the velocity of ideas that are coming at you in these books. A lot of them are coming out monthly. It's just like. You respect people taking their shots and then kind of moving on and like I think there's this idea now that like a comic has to be perfect like you say or that it's like preserved in amber because for a lot of people, it's just a fucking movie pitch waiting to happen. And like oh you want to put your best foot forward and you want to like shave off the edges and make it all just like perfect.

CHRIS:
Yeah.

STEVEN:
Like as if it's like your screenplay you're presenting out to investors or something like you want it to somehow be like this platonic ideal of a perfect story but that's to me. Never what comics was about comics was about just fucking batshit wild imagination exploding on the page with a deadline. And like knowing that you have to fucking do another story the next week and like you're going to do the best you can that day and I don't know like I feel like a lot of my favorite comics have that kind of I don't want to call it a slapdash quality but like a quality of like the quality of somebody like Doug Moench who's probably like well shit I got to write an issue of BATMAN this week I got to write an issue of MASTER OF KUNG FU I got I got to write all these other things. So I'm going to give AZTEC ACE you know a few days and come up with the best thing I can and throw everything I got at it and then move on to the next thing I feel like to me like I enjoy that quality of comics and I feel like you see that a lot more in the '80s of people that were just. They were taking their shot but they they weren't necessarily. They weren't thinking about everything as like this thing that was going to be collected in a collected edition and was going to live forever. They were. They were just fucking writing stories you know and like there was like a purity to it that was different. It also wasn't a springboard to a movie or a TV show. It was just like hey what's a wild comic story you know what I mean like what's a wild comic story I'm passionate about like Steve Gerber wasn't trying to launch a fucking movie franchise. He was just like fuck man like HOWARD THE DUCK this is a crazy idea I'm going to go for it like you just you had so much more wild invention without an agenda.

CHRIS:
That's a great point. It's all great for here and.

STEVEN:
And, to me, that's why that's why we're doing the show really is because we love these comics because of that spirit.

CHRIS:
I think, you know what, I never thought of it that way. But you said it: great things like the velocity of ideas… I mean like you know I remember I was going through some a box the other day and I've run across this NIGHT FORCE comic that like fucking Gene Colan did the art on and that was kind of like.

STEVEN:
oh Gene Colan land yeah yeah, yeah, that's like fucking I saw just online a couple days ago coincidentally that comic just had its 40-year anniversary literally issue one came out forty years ago!

CHRIS:
Yeah but but I'm reading that and I'm I'm looking at those and I'm kind of saying you would never do this comic today. I mean it's a great comic and everything, like the characters are really cool, but it's kind of like you wouldn't do a comic like this today.

STEVEN:
no way. No. Yeah, yeah.

CHRIS:
And I feel like you say like everything has got like everything now has to have like this 10x return and back then they because look we talked about THRILLER right? like THRILLER went what 13, 14 issues like that and it was considered a failure.

STEVEN:
Right? Right.

STEVEN:
Yeah, yes.

CHRIS:
The entire run but they kept but it but it was enough for them to like it was selling enough for them to let it run for a little bit whereas now they're pulling a book after like 3 issues if it doesn't if it doesn't work. You know, you just like oh we're done. We're not we made a mistake on this and.

STEVEN:
Oh yeah, yep. Oh yeah, and let's be real. They wouldn't even launch a book like THRILLER in the None place like most companies or really, you know, it's just too… it's too out there. Yeah.

CHRIS:
Right? right? It's too wild. Yeah, but a lot of books. but a lot of books, but those are the books that you read them as a kid and go what is this? Oh my God, this is like wild. We'd pick it up you know because right now like I never go to the comic store.

STEVEN:
Yeah, yeah.

CHRIS:
And like but not never but I like I I go to the comic store with this. We be back is all backup I go to the comic store now where I'm looking for a book that'll make me go "What is this ?! I never expected any of this." You know we were talking the other day about was it that book called…

STEVEN:
Right? yeah.

STEVEN:
yes, right, There's very image Image comics.

CHRIS:
And the book the book called THE NEW MASTERS you know which I think 2 2 interesting books right now that I think that like I just saw them Matt yeah I think then THE NEW MASTERS I think those guys like one summer image kind of like Image Diversity Award creator thing or something a couple of years ago and now here's a book is come out. Finally.

STEVEN:
Hm.

CHRIS:
Think this what it is because it something about their names of these 2 African guys I like I remember they won something and so here's the book and I was like okay, cool, let me take a look at this and it's like I'm pleasantly surprised because oh I expect any of this you know and but most you'll look at.

STEVEN:
Oh OK. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

CHRIS:
Look at it and look at the title and look at the art and look at what's going on I was like I can kind of… tell this is like it's not going to surprise me, you know, it's not really going to surprise me. 

STEVEN:
Yes. Yeah, it's true.

CHRIS:
But yeah, but anyway, that is this week's episode

of COMICS ROT YOUR BRAIN! We thank you for listening to the show. And we'll be back next week with a comic that you've probably never heard of or forgotten 
about. I'm not sure what that is, yet, but we will [soon] know what it is. Yeah, we'll just surprise you, or when the episode drops, you'll see what is in the title.

STEVEN:
Exactly. And one of these days, we also might get around to interviewing some creators [and] some editors or publishers from this era. And we might also be having a special guest or two join us on the show soon to discuss some of their favorite '80s comics, so stay tuned for some curveballs coming up soon. 

CHRIS:
All right, everyone, thank you. Talk soon. …Bye bye.

STEVEN: Yep. Thank you all. Bye.

[Music fades out]