[Intro Music]

STEVEN: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another
episode of COMICS ROT YOUR BRAIN!

…The show where screenwriters talk about
the comic books

that we love, mostly from the 1980s.

I'm one of your hosts; I'm Steven Bagatourian.

CHRIS: And I'm your other host, Chris Derrick.

STEVEN: And, Chris, today we are talking about
one of the coolest books ever published by

DC Comics, called HAWKWORLD, and this is one
hell of a comic. Man, do I love this story.

Just to set the table for everyone: [When
HAWKWORLD is published] The year is 1989.

We are still living in a world that has been
forever changed in American comics by the

sheer blast radius and impact of DARK KNIGHT
RETURNS, and WATCHMEN, and BATMAN: YEAR ONE,

and BORN AGAIN, and all these books that just
completely rewrote the rulebook for American

comics. And all these publishers are wanting
to recapture that success and that mojo by

essentially provoking and instigating creators,
and hiring creators, to follow that trend

of "the grim and the gritty," as they say. And this is essentially the grim and gritty

BATMAN: YEAR ONE version of the HAWKMAN story.
It's Hawkman getting his own "Dark Knight"

...of the soul, so to speak. And I'm so excited
to talk about this story. Chris, what do you

think about HAWKWORLD? What's it all about?
What is HAWKWORLD?

CHRIS: As opposed to our lead character [in
BATMAN: YEAR ONE] being Bruce Wayne, our lead

character [in HAWKWORLD] is a guy named, "Katar
Hol," and he starts off as an aristocrat who

happens to be a policeman in a group of people
[airborne police] that are called the Wingmen. And

through the story's harsh crucible, he then
becomes the champion of justice for the underclass.

And then he eventually becomes the hero that
we know as Hawkman.

STEVEN: HAWKWORLD was published as a three-issue
prestige format limited series in this kind

of a fledgling format that had been pioneered
in large part by THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS,

so much so that this format was even referred
to as "The Dark Knight format," which was

the square-bound 48-page glossy-paper comic
that would come out often as a limited series,

most often miniseries, and it was released
in three extraordinary issues. It was three

chapters. The first chapter was a whole lot
of world-building, and it took place — the

whole story takes place on — Hawkman's home
planet of "Thanagar". And the thing is, though,

as you mentioned, Chris, we're not dealing
with Hawkman, at least not here in the beginning,

we're dealing with Katar Hol, the guy who
will become Hawkman. When we meet him, he's

a privileged police officer, one of the so-called
Wingmen, who are literally these winged-police

officers who have these metal fancy wings,
and they fly around in the skies of Thanagar.

And we [come to] realize that Thanagar is
an alien planet, split into an upper class

and a lower class, the aristocracy of which
Katar and his family are esteemed members

— they are the ones living in the clouds,
quite literally — living in the skies of

Thanagar. And the Wingmen, they swoop down
to what is called the Downside where they

police millions and millions of alien races,
which Katar is very naive about, but what

he does not realize, and what he is coming
to realize over the course of the story, is

that these alien races have been subjugated
and enslaved by the Thanagarians' upper class.

And so, in the first book in our series, the
first chapter is all about Katar Hol, a naive

policeman who believes that he's on the side
of right and justice, slowly starting to suspect

that maybe, just maybe, there's a lot more
to his planet and his people that than he

realized… and [that] maybe he might be one
of the bad guys.

CHRIS: And then, in chapter two, which is
called "Freefall," then Katar Hol… gets

dragged deeper and deeper into the conspiracy,
because the aliens are planning a rebellion.

And then he gets convicted of treason and
sentenced to [prison on] this remote island,

probably for like a decade or something like
that, and that's where he learns a lot more

about himself, but also about the true history
of his planet. And it is not pretty.

STEVEN: That is so true. And then, by book
three, Katar returns… He returns to the

part of Thanagar he had formerly policed.
He's now come back, he's gotten free of [his

forced exile on] the island and his prison
there, and he has this new knowledge, this

new awareness of the system that he actually
had been raised in, and what he had been a

part of. And now with [his counterpart] character
— who is Hawkgirl in this in this world

in this early time of Thanagar — Shayera,
she helps him uncover some incredible and

shocking secrets about his own family, things
that he does not know about his own father.

And we don't want to give away any spoilers
here at the intro, but there are some revelations

that are pretty devastating for Katar, in
the final chapter, here. And it sets the table,

ultimately, for the path that he is now embarking
upon, where he will become the Hawkman, one

day, that we all know and love on Earth, a
member of the Justice League. This is one

hell of an origin story that completely revamped
and rebooted the character of Hawkman in such

an insane way. And it was all conceptualized
and executed, mostly, by Tim Truman, the genius

writer-artist, with the extraordinary inks
of [Enrique] Alcatena helping him, and it

is a gorgeous piece of work. And I love that
we got to talk about this today.

CHRIS: Yeah, yeah. I think this book is amazing,
and you'll hear about it in a second… This

book, it also is the lead-up to the [monthly]
series called HAWKWORLD, the ongoing series

that comes out in 1990. And now let's get
on with the show….

[SHOW DISCUSSION]

CHRIS: I remember when this book came out,
and this is one of those books that, I remember,

it was a big deal when it came out, but I
don't think people talk about it past '95,

maybe '98. You know, certainly not past 2000.
And it's kind of crazy, because it's a unique

book, and I understand why people don't talk
about it, but we'll get to that in a minute.

Steve, you got anything to say about this,
before we jump into the talking about the

issues?

STEVEN: Yes. Yeah, I certainly do. I'm really
really happy that we're talking about HAWKWORLD

today, Chris, because I feel like Timothy
Truman, to me, is one of the greatest, largely

unheralded, creators in American comics in
terms of like just how much I feel like this

guy should be talked about. His body of work
is extraordinary, and he's had just the craziest

range of books he's worked on, but he's got
such an idiosyncratic and unique personal

vision that he brings to everything he does.
You know, Tim Truman has done books like SCOUT,

which was his own book that he created, which
is a futuristic kind of a Western that was

just an incredible book. He's worked on GRIMJACK
with John Ostrander, a character he co-created

for First Comics, which is also legendary.
GRIMJACK for First, SCOUT for Eclipse. And

he's done just an amazing amount of work;
he's been incredibly prolific. He did a book

for DC Comics' short-lived HELIX line that
I would actually love for us to talk about,

at some point, called THE BLACK LAMB, which
is also—

CHRIS: Oh yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember
that. I remember that.

STEVEN: —a really interesting book, yeah.
Yeah, that's a really unique book, as well.

And there's actually even another book I would
love for us to touch on, at some point, that

he did, called WILDERNESS: THE TRUE STORY
OF SIMON GIRTY, RENEGADE, which was a two-volume

black-and-white graphic novel depicting the
American settlers' Western Frontier. And he's

just— Tim Truman is a one-of-a-kind iconoclast
and a living legend in comics art. And I just

could not be more thrilled to be talking about
his work, because he's utterly like no one

else who's ever drawn comics in America — the
kind of work he does, the themes and the subject

matter that he is completely, you know, just
ensconced in as a human being — it's not

the kind of stuff that typically gets covered
in comics. And I feel like he's just a true

artist. He doesn't really do stuff that feels
like it's an assignment or a gig. [But] anytime

he does, like here with HAWKWORLD, he takes
the assignment, and he morphs it and really

twists it, and pushes it through a Tim Truman-lens,
where it suddenly feels like no HAWKMAN story

that you've ever read in your life. And so,
yeah, man, I think his guy is just a giant

of American comics, and I'm really happy we
get to talk about him today.

CHRIS: Well, here's what's interesting, to
me, about what you said about an assignment

and his work… Because I think this was the
first thing of Timothy Truman's that I was

exposed to, but then someone had mentioned
to me that he did GRIMJACK. And… GRIMJACK

wasn't being published at the time, you know…
First [Comics], I think, had been out of business

or whatever. The book was not being published,
so I had to go back and find those books in

the back-issue bins and things like that,
which, to me, is kind of a lost art …to

go and look through back-issue bins, but—

STEVEN: Yes. [laughs]

CHRIS: —you can eBay it, but it's not the
same or whatever… But [combing thru back-bins],

there's something very fascinating about just
doing that. So, for people who don't know,

I would just kind of summarize [this assignment]
in a single sentence: This [HAWKWORLD] [may

be] an assignment (if this was an assignment;
I don't know…the [etiology] of this book),

but it's basically Hawkman: Year One is what
this is—

STEVEN: Yes!

CHRIS: —In terms of… the same way that
BATMAN: YEAR ONE is the [Frank] Miller thing.

And, you know, …it's in the wake of what
they were doing… DC was doing these kind

of deep-dive origin stories into their heroes.
And the fact that it was the Baxter Paper

book — I think they called it prestige format,
at the time — the only book I remember that

was before this, that was like this… was
that GREEN ARROW: THE LONGBOW HUNTERS thing

that Mike Grell did—

STEVEN: Right.

CHRIS: —which was a very fascinating look,
and a mature look, at GREEN ARROW. Because

I think this is the first HAWKMAN book that
comes out post-CRISIS, right?

STEVEN: I think so.

CHRIS: Like, there's no HAWKMAN book before…?

STEVEN: Yeah, I think you're right.

CHRIS: They're exploring this, so, you know,
…that's essentially what HAWKWORLD is. And

"Hawkworld" is… I guess the slur term of
it; it's really called "Thanagar" …is the

actual name [of Hawkman's world]. And, look,
this is a book… It's interesting you say

he's got a unique style and… This is a book
that doesn't feel like a comic book, right?

STEVEN: [laughter]

CHRIS: —And I say that in the way that it
feels like… It feels like a HEAVY METAL

[Magazine] book from the '70s, or maybe even
like a short story from the '70s, because…

The first thing that came to mind to me, when
I read this — and it's not as obtuse as

this or as impenetrable as this — but it
reminded me of that movie called ZARDOZ, which

I'm not sure if you've seen or not, or if
anyone has seen that…

STEVEN: Wait, I'm sorry, my headphones cut
out for a second. What movie?

CHRIS: —the movie called ZARDOZ… You know
that Sean Connery, John Boorman movie?

STEVEN: Oh [ __ ]. No, no. I know what you're
talking about, because I've seen some of the

images and posters for that film, and it looks
crazy, but I've never seen it.

CHRIS: It's [ __ ] crazy. I saw it one time
like ten years ago at the LACMA in LA [The

LA County Museum of Art]. It's bizarre. I
don't recommend it to people, because you'll

slap me, if you—

STEVEN: [erupts in laughter]

CHRIS: —go to watch that movie. But it's
one of those… it's one of those science

fiction films that they were making in England
— they were really making them over here,

but they were [also] making them in England
— these were in the wake of [Stanley Kubrick's]

2001, but pre-STAR WARS… where they're really
trying to do these …interesting, kind of,

looks at science fiction, where they would
…address an issue that was concerning them

about what was going on [in the world]. And
[so] they, kind of, draped it in the cloak

of a science fiction story to address something
[a particular societal concern]. I say all

that because this book, you know, it's Katar
Hol… (That's interesting reading his name,

because I remember Carter Hall, like C-a-r-t-e-r
H-a-l-l, is how he was [named] in THE GOLDEN

AGE, you know; now I'm trying to remember
the whole thing about how it works in Thanagar

and stuff like that), …but this story is
about an aristocrat's son who decides to join

the police force, and he gets exposed to the
crime and corruption of the police force [on]

a planet that has gone to all these other
worlds …raped and pillaged…. This book

is actually ahead-of-its-time—

STEVEN: Yeah…

CHRIS: —to a degree, because the themes
in it remind me of, like, basically cultural

appropriation, right? …is what's going on
in this book. And I think that's kind of fascinating,

because no one was talking about that, then,
in '89; they weren't talking about that in

'99, and I think this made this book interesting
to me. And it felt… It's one of those books

that, you know, begins with those little like
there's a caption from a band manuscript,

you know, I thought that was kind of interesting—

STEVEN: Yes…

CHRIS: —I was kind like, "What in the hell
is going on here?" But I think those big themes…

The people who are brought (the conquered
people) that Hawkworld has conquered and [is]

stealing their food and their wine, everything…
They bring people from those planets—

STEVEN: A wide variety of alien races, so
we see Lizard People, just like all kinds

of like weird, crazy-looking aliens, but they've
all been rendered subservient, and they've

all become like this underclass, and, you
know, to the aristocracy that sort of lives

above them, which are the people who… you
know, Carter Hall [Katar Hol] and the Hawks

are part of.

CHRIS: Yeah, I mean, you know what? So there's
three issues, right? The first issue I didn't

really like, the first issue, because I kind
of felt like I understood what this book was

doing—

STEVEN: Yeah.

CHRIS: —And I didn't really think, I don't
know… It made me angry… I was kind of

like: "Oh, this story about this aristocrat
guy and blah blah blah…" …Not that I was,

maybe, angry, …but I was annoyed by it—

STEVEN: Yeah, yeah…

CHRIS: —I was like, "Ohh, this story…"

STEVEN: [laughs]

CHRIS: —but, then again, I just said to
myself, I said, "Ohh, but contextually, this

was, kind of, actually, kind of kind of fresh
at the time, you know, maybe not too fresh,

but it was fresh enough, at the time in '89,
that by the time I got issues two and three,

I was like, "OHHH, I kind of enjoy this a
lot more than what I thought…."

STEVEN: [laughing] Yeah.

CHRIS: I mean, it's interesting… Look, the
first… so, you know, it starts off, and

he's on an assignment, and they're in the
lower decks or, like, the lower dregs, of

Hawkworld, and, you know, they're putting
people in their places, like people who don't…

See, this is what it reminds me of, right?
It reminds me of America, it reminds me of

New York—

STEVEN: Yup.

CHRIS: —or like Los Angeles…

STEVEN: Yup.

CHRIS: —where all these people who are from
the foreign lands, who have come here, and

they're treated like [ __ ]—

STEVEN: Mmhm

CHRIS: —and the rich people, or the white
people, who are [colonists]… like they appropriated

culture, and they treat everyone really really
[ __ ] poorly, like there's that line where

the guy, I forget his name now, but he's the
Captain of the police… He's there at that

ball, and he's there with Shayera. …That
waiter spills the food on her dress, or something

like that, you know, and she goes ballistic
on the guy's as$—

STEVEN: She freaks out, man. That shocked
me, how much Shayera freaked out in that moment.

She was so unlikable and so, like, monstrous
to this alien waiter who ruined her dress

by spilling something on her. I was like holy
[ __ ] like [ __ ], this is how we're

presenting Shayera!? [Hawkwoman] This is crazy.
Yeah… that shocked me, because, yeah, Truman

was not pulling punches in just how entitled
and how just thoroughly unlikable the aristocracy

is in this world, and it was kind of jarring
to read that. I was like, "Wow, he does not

give a [ __ ] if we like this character!"

CHRIS: I'm reading it, and I'm saying to myself,
"Why is Carter Hall like even still entertaining

her?!

STEVEN: Yeah, totally, why are you [ __ ]
hanging out with her?!

CHRIS: … [I know] because she's a [ __ ]!
You know

STEVEN: Yeah, exactly. Yes.

CHRIS: But it's crazy, because it's like everyone's
popping pills, right? Like everyone is like

all these people are popping pills, and
they don't really say what they are, but you

know they're like they're mood-stabilizers,
and again in the late '80s, I don't remember

that level of like… you know, like the PROZAC
NATION book hadn't come out yet, and so this

level of like trying to stabilize mood and
trying to take drugs you know the pharmaceuticals

it might have been a problem to rich people
but it wasn't like a national problem the

way it later became like you know the next
10, 20 years I thought it was very like observant

of him to create that that way yeah it's just
fascinating what he did in this book you know

I mean and you know when his I mean his the
one thing I didn't like this the only thing

this one thing I didn't like right and I didn't
know if this was a act or not right his dad

is kind of a buffoon when he hangs out with
him in public you know like when they're at

the little the at the dinner and stuff like
that like his dad acts kind of like some weird

like not like who is this guy like you're
an idiot you know but he can't be idiot because

he's the guy who created the wings for them
he's like the top scientist he's like he's

the world savior so that there was a weird
dichotomy in that the way those characters

were constructed but I think overall the issue
is pretty fascinating I agree I think it is

fascinating and it's really interesting that
you didn't you didn't like the first issue

as much as the next couple I would say in
regard to the way that the dad was behaving

there could be an argument made that the dad
was putting on perhaps a little bit of a performance

because we do find out later that the dad
was secretly doing all these things kind of

behind the backs of the rest of the aristocracy
and the dad was actually trying to help the

people in the downside world because he was
feeling guilty about how all of his Innovations

all of his genius kind of inventions had actually
led to this incredibly corrupt regime so that

might be part of what was going on with the
way the dad was behaving there to me like

well I when I say I didn't like it it's not
that I like I'm saying don't read it because

it was you should read this you should read
this series so it's it's criminal that no

one talks about the series anymore particularly
now with like the income inequality and the

whole rise of like immigrant culture and and
how those people and how immigrants are not

considered part of this like their contributions
are so devalued in our current and the it

was for the last 50, 60 years and they're
fighting to get that kind of respect right

now and he was addressing that back in what
30 some years ago and it's interesting to

see what he's doing it's just that the book
there's something about it that felt I don't

know the word it's like I it was a dichotomy
to me because dude's art is amazing talking

about him like he's just a writer he's got
yes an aesthetic for like his creatures and

stuff like that in the buildings the architecture
that is pretty unique and doesn't feel like

anybody that I can think of who's who does
comic art by the time you get to the end of

this first issue I was like I I was kind of
like I need to read the second one because

I need to know where this is going because
I couldn't remember I couldn't remember where

it was going could not remember it was going
you know I mean the girl gets killed like

Shayera gets blown up is that an issue one
that happens that the that the bomb blows

up the the oh oh yeah yeah yeah I think was
that I think I think it was issue two where

the bomb blows up Shayera I think that because
that that surprised the [ __ ] out of me

when Shayera... No you're right you're right
you're right yeah yeah cuz because they go

hunting

and all this kind of craziness look there's
that moment where they're out when they're

when they're out hunting and she raised the
rifle to him she and it feels like she that's

a weird moment yeah that's such a weird moment
I'm glad you called that out Chris because

I wanted to talk about that moment yeah it's
like Carter... Katar Hol you know the man

who

will be Hawkman goes out hunting with Shayera
who's like the the woman who's the super rich

aristocrat the daughter of the prominent person
and she's the one who freaked out over the

waiter spilling something on her dress the
last time we saw her and now they go out hunting

and they see like these kind of like these
cool-looking creatures not hurting anybody

just like eating some grass and Carter says
oh look animals and like and and oh no no

I'm sorry Shayera says oh look animals and
Carter says quiet they're foraging I've never

seen anything quite like and then suddenly
pow pow pow pow pow and Shayera just shoots

the [ __ ] out of them and Carter's like
what are you doing and she's like look I got

them all there has to be at least four and
then Carter says no one's wounded he dived

off to the left I have to go down and finish
him off and she's like ah let it go let's

find some more and then she's like Carter
or Katar where are you going and then in that

moment she stares after him like you said
and she [ __ ] points her rifle at him and

it's like it's a whole page it's a whole page
of like like look at that it's like from the

moment she points the rifle at him it's like
one two three four panels before she decides

not to shoot him and then a fifth panel where
they walk away from each other that's a really

weird moment and it's all silent I think there's
somewhere else maybe issue too where it's

like multiple pages of silence Oh it's like
actually right after that it's if you look

at the next one two three four pages the final
five pages of issue one are silent which is

honestly like that's a pretty audacious [ __ ]
amazing move for a first issue to end it with

five silent pages and they're good [ __ ]
Pages they're amazing and it works because

his art is so good his art is so expressive
like his art I mean I mean the thing he does

really well is that he does close-ups really
well he does like either like the dam ser

only of just their eyes to their face to whatever
it is he does these things where his his drawings

really convey an emotional state of the character
yes because there's something in issue too

like when the dad is dead and he's like crying
and he's reading that stuff no the thing I'm

thinking about where it's like it's quiet
too is like the whole time when he's put on

trial an issue too you know oh yeah oh that's
right yes which I think is fascinating because

it doesn't matter because he CU he's like
I don't need to tell you is said there I think

that you the reader can guess what has been
said that that he's going to get railroaded

and up the river and I was like I was reading
it I was I was kind of like did they scan

these pages wrong or is is there no no caption
at all I mean what's going on here it's something

that he does throughout this book where he'll
do you know like two or three panels maybe

a full page of no of nothing no caption no
dialogue nothing and he's so confident in

his his page layouts and his drawing ability
the thing the thing I love about this book

the most in terms of his abilities art as
as a cartoonist is I never get lost in how

he's telling the story visually on the page
and that's like a real trick it's not even

a trick it's like that's the craft of being
a cartoonist right if you be comic artist

it's like doing a movie can you tell me the
story without any of the dialogue and my eye

just perfectly follows every what's happening
on the page and he's so good at this he has

these helicopters that it feels sort of like
a scene out of like APOCALYPSE NOW you know

with those you know those gunships coming
in you know because there are helicopters

he draws them in the right kind of there's
an alien touch to it all that feels like oh

this is not of Earth but it still feels like
familiar enough for me to feel like it's I

I I don't know something great about how he
creates stuff and pushes it to where it needs

to be so it feels foreign enough but it's
not like taking you out with like his abstractness

you know and that's something that that I
I kind of love about his his work throughout

the book you know I mean I think it's interesting
too the guy Katar he's like he's in love with

the past you know and this whole theory about
part when he goes hunting and he has that

gun he's like yeah dude that gun is from like
from like from like a few thousand years ago

I was like dude what are you doing with a
gun like that that is just [ __ ] wild it's

[ __ ] wild I tell you man that's I don't
know what you think about first two issues

forget the third but yeah yeah yeah I mean
I think this book's really fascinating I honestly

like I've wanted us to talk about so much
Tim Truman stuff on this podcast and this

was kind of a random one to start with because
I think you know we could have started with

SCOUT or GRIMJACK or some of the books that
are maybe like the more signature characters

that he created or co-created but this ended
up being a lot more interesting than I even

expected it to be because I think I I owned
these comics back in the day and I kind of

remember the first is but I don't know if
I ever finished this series earlier because

a lot of this felt very new to me and like
I agree with everything you were saying about

Timothy Truman and just like how just jaw-dropping
his artwork is and how it's got such a unique

just flavor to it to the alienness of everything
but he also draws things that feel dirty and

lived in in a way that a lot of comic artists
just don't know how to do right so it just

it feels like dirty technology it feels like
dirty aliens it feels a lived in world and

that's such a unique thing for an artist to
be able to do and it does remind me a bit

actually of Joe... Joe Kubert and and Joe
Kubert

is somebody that is particularly I think important

in talking about Tim Truman because Truman
went to The Kubert School he went to the The

Joe Kubert School for two years and I
think yeah and so that's where he graduated

you know he attended The Kubert School from
'79 to '81 and I think talking about the fundamentals

of of cartooning and what you were saying
earlier Chris just about how solid the clarity

of the storytelling is I think that's a testament
to the schooling he had and just the fact

that he's a very serious storyteller he's
not a guy who's a dilettante He's not a guy

who is just trying to draw pretty pictures
you know what I mean like these are all such

carefully thought out pages and panels and
the story like I think Truman probably doesn't

get enough credit as a writer so glad we've
been talking about him as a writer as well

here because I think the story is actually
like really impressively impressively well

written although I do feel like the third
issue to me feels like a bit of an abrupt

ending and and a bit of an Abrupt wrap-up
so I actually personally liked I liked the

first two issues I think more than the third
issue in a certain way I didn't dislike the

third issue but the third issue to me just
felt not as satisfying as I wanted it to I

I just felt like things resolved very quickly
and I personally I feel like I wish he'd been

given four issues and I don't know if he wanted
four issues but I I wish this had been like

more like THE DARK KNIGHT expanded 4-issue
prestige miniseries instead of just three

because I I really would have loved to have
seen you know Katar's return to to battle

and like try to fight for you know fight for
justice I I wish it had more time because

I felt like we had a lot of time for for his
fall his imprisonment his exile and not quite

as much time for him to come come back and
sort of you know make things right so to speak

you know I totally agree with you you know
what's interesting is you know in issue one

in that first raid he does he saves that red-haired
girl and then in issue two when like you know

the the the like Shayera gets killed isue
three he is back he's you know he's back from

his Exile imprisonment and there's that
other woman who's the hot girl who's got the

red hair and she's been re-dubbed that's the
little girl he saved in the beginning you

know he eventually becomes his partner but
the thing that I didn't like there was some

really cheap storytelling or cheats when it's
like she's explaining what happened yeah and

I was like you're explaining it and it's like
I would have wanted to see all this like the

investigation part of how she got to what
she got and how and like did she almost get

caught is just some tension in there blah
like all that could have been in another episode

like like in another yeah imagine she could
have been like Carrie Kelley in DARK KNIGHT

like she could have gotten a little more time
to like really be a full-fledged character

in in a I think in a more substantial way
maybe yeah yeah because the thing that I like

about this is that... what's his name is
it what's his name the villain oh the villain

his name is like Byth, Byth or something or...
yeah yeah Byth. Yeah it's interesting because

Byth escapes because you know what he's taking
that drug that that allows him to manipulate

his body into like weird creatures which is
wild which is really really wild because it

reminded me a little bit of like of like AKIRA
to a degree some of it's a little disgusting

too but but in like it feels like the thing
the movie the thing you know what it is but

it's cool because the last few pages says
oh you know he's escaped to another planet

that's outside of where we are and it's like
oh yeah because this is because this is the

Hawkman villain that that they're setting
up for that his main villain it's just it's

just like end of the BATMAN: YEAR ONE where
like …when Gordon says to Batman he goes

yeah like there's some killer with clown makeup
painted on you know it's like it's like a

throwaway line and letting you know oh here's
The Joker you know and it's interesting kind

of nod to that kind of like hey so now we're
DC telling back into the actual like DC Universe

that we know and love but you're right it
it I it like it did wrap up too quickly you

know I like the third the third issue terms
of like the revelation with you know like

Shayera but I feel number two number two number
two yeah I think it just I think the crime

or I mean the whole thing with Byth like it
wrapped up too quickly I mean all of it was

way too quickly yeah it was so fast and I
was disappointed man because I was really

personally loving the first two issues and
I totally agree with what you said I think

that's a great point about Shayera's like
big monologue in issue three felt very expository

to me she was just kind of laying out everything
that happened she was like Hey remember that

little red-haired girl you know in your first
raid? That was me blah blah blah like Truman

is such a brilliant storyteller I think if
he had had more time to lay it out we could

have we could have seen more stuff visually
we could have kind of put some of the pieces

together ourselves like it didn't have to
all just kind of be laid out so quickly in

that third issue so I I don't know what happened
there if that was if it was intended to be

three issues or not but that to me was like
the only thing I was disappointed in was the

issue three wrap-up and how fast and how hyper-compressed
a lot of that felt to me but I mean overall

I was still really just impressed with the
series and oh by the way you're right this

was definitely setting up the Hawkworld and
the Hawkman and Hawkwoman kind of re-entry

into the DC Universe post-CRISIS because coming
out of this series spinning out of the series

was a HAWKWORLD ongoing series that was written
by John Ostrander and drawn [penciled] by

Graham Nolan and that ran for a bunch of issues
and they were basically picking up the mythology

that Timothy Truman had you know created and
laid out here and kind of running with this

version of the Hawks you know so this did
kind of the thing it did the thing they needed

it to do to relaunch the Hawkman, Hawkwoman
right the relaunch I mean but you were saying

earlier about an assignment like what he would
do as assignment like I mean I someone to

know the etymology of this because it's like
oh oh yeah it's it's actually kind of cool

if you were like hey I need you to redo Hawkman's
whole like backstory and this is what you

come up with because it's amazing it's a pretty
stark change of what you think that he is

because I kind of think you know look I mean
look they come to Earth before as like they're

like are they're cops who come after that
guy that guy Byth they're coming after him

but the world they come from in this HAWKWORLD
is such darker oh yeah oh dude it's so dark

man it's crazy dark....

[Music]

Hey, everybody, Thank you so much for listening
to COMICS ROT YOUR BRAIN! We hope you're enjoying

the CRYB! experience, and we'll get you back
to the normal show momentarily here. But we

had to jump in just to tell y'all about our
Patreon, because we do have a Patreon that

we are humbly asking everyone to please contribute
$2 a month to, and in exchange for that $2,

you will help to guarantee that this show
continues to go forward and exist for a long

time into the future. Believe it or not that
$2 bucks will make a huge difference, and

in return, we are offering y'all two free
episodes — two bonus episodes, I should

say — two bonus episodes of our show every
month [just for Patrons]. And these bonus

episodes, they will be one-shots where Chris
and I talk about books that we will not otherwise

be covering on the show in solo fashion. Chris
and I will respectively have different takes

on different books, and it's going to be a
lot of fun. But that's not the only thing

we're offering [Patreon supporters]…. Chris,
what else are we offering all of these Patrons

out there? You will get an opportunity to
submit books for us to consider to on the

show we will choose you know one or two books
per season from the requests from the listeners

who subscribe to the show so that's why it's
great to subscribe to the show and then also

we will allow you to submit questions for
our Q&A episode which will which will strictly

be questions from the audience and we will
launch that sometime either after season 1

or sometime during season 2 and we'll keep
that going throughout the seasons and you

will be able to provide questions if you are
a subscriber only and so Steven tell me about

a book that you might want to cover doing
your one-shot OK so there are so many books

that I've been thinking about covering here
from my portion of the one shots the book

I'm going to mention right now is a comic
called STIG'S INFERNO that was the very first

comic work of Ty Templeton who would go on
to be a very significant comic artist throughout

much of the '80s '90s and 2000s and beyond
and it was a book that Ty Templeton did I

believe when he was around college age with
his close friend at the time Klaus Schönefeld

and I hope I'm pronouncing his name correctly
but it was a book they collaborated on together

and I believe they were writing and drawing
it together I don't know the exact breakdown

but they were both artists and I believe they
were drawing together as well and it was published

by ver Vortex yeah Vortex the Canadian publisher
and it ran for eight issues back in the '80s

and right around that same time Vortex also
published another book that was called I believe

it was called KELVIN MACE and it was a book
that ran for only two issues and it was also

drawn by Klaus Schönefeld as well and I remember
that book being a really hot comic for a minute

when I was first getting into comics like
it was really it was an in demand book and

I think KELVIN MACE was another collaboration
with Templeton and Schönefeld Anyway they're

both really interesting pair of books and
I think they're made especially poignant in

the fact that they're both unfinished because
Klaus Schönefeld died prematurely shortly

after working on these comics and he was in
his early 20s so it was a very premature very

tragic death of an extremely talented young
artist and he and Templeton put out some really

terrific looking books in both of those books
they were both very sophisticated beautifully

done indie comics of the time and Ty Templeton
of course went on after that terrible tragedy

to have a really extraordinary career but
there was always something really poignant

to me about the fact that Schönefeld passed
away and that those first two books were left

unfinished and so I think it'd be intriguing
and worthwhile to go back and take another

look at STIG'S INFERNO and KELVIN MACE through
the lens of today and just kind of see how

those books feel through modern eyes because
I always thought they were incredibly cool-looking

books and I remember really liking them at
the time and I haven't read them for you know

probably 25 years and I'd love to check them
out again that's interesting I don't think

I've even heard of this artist this author
or these titles I want to hear what you say

I want to I can't wait to see the art that
gets posted on the website for this book so

people can take a look at it and people can
absorb it and get and get a chance to understand

what you're going to be raving about I want
to talk about I hope to talk about a book

that Gene Colan did for DC called NIGHT FORCE
it was like '82 no maybe '83 I remember I

picked up like the first maybe eight the first
like eight issues at like WonderCon like 10

years ago and I never read them but I came
across the other day and I was like I want

to read these I never you know you buy comics
sometimes at these cons you never read them

for whatever reason and so this is like a
series that I've because I love Gene Colan

like he has that really kind of like that
that wavy type of like super fluid style and

I kind of like that horror stuff that you
know he's great with that with the tumor Dracula

and everything like that but this was something
he did for DC and I'm very interested in taking

a look at that for the one-shot which you
will get a chance to hear STIG'S INFERNO or

you'll get a chance to hear NIGHT FORCE if
you support this Patreon which we would love

for you to do it helps the show and now we
will get back to the show I mean he is a person

because it's like you know like they're down
in the first issue and the same thing like

when he's when he meets a number two They
have that mandate to kill anyone on site you

know like people who live below I mean she's
calling them meat all the time it's like goddamn

the oppression of this world on the non-Thanagarians
is really really it's like wow if you want

to tell this story about cultural appropriation
and about how foreigners are treated like

[ __ ] particularly here in America but
also in most Western countries you imagine

telling us that didn't have the trappings
of HAWKWORLD and those are like maybe Chinese

or Africans or people from Brazil or you know
from like Nigeria and the way they're getting

[ __ ] on the way they're getting like rounded
up and and exterminated is just pretty [ __ ]

brutal and it softens that just a little bit
by making them like these a you know these

aliens these amphibians and all this kind
of weird ass kind of like what walrus type

[ __ ] I mean there's that one shot he's
on that island and he's like shot that thing

looks like a god it's like a porpoise sea
lion I was like dude what is this, right?

that

was another moment yeah where our main character
[ __ ] does something horrible and shoots

somebody like for no reason shoots this alien
for no reason kills them later when he's exiled

on this island which we can talk about in
issue but you're right man and I'm so glad

that you're bringing up the just kind of the
metaphors and the levels that the story works

on because there's such a deep melancholy
in this story like such a deep sadness like

this aristocrat this son of an aristocrat
who's part of the police force who's addicted

to drugs and everyone's addicted to drugs
drugs which by the way they get from the denizens

of this lower world drugs that are coming
from you know they're in like what do they

call it it's like up was it like Upper or
Upside and then Downside like upside and Downside

is like oh the aristocrats like the aristocracy
lives Upside and then Downside is all of like

the plebians and like these alien races that
are the underclass they're getting all the

drugs that the aristocrats are taking from
down there but there's just so much like of

like a haunted really just super sad feeling
to everything that's happening there's like

there's very little joy in this book it's
very very dark it's wild I think the only

joy in the book is an issue in the series
when he's on the Exile Island and you know

the one guy who's making the wings for him
is he kills that guy but that guy's remain

brother so when that guy dies yeah that's
the only joy in the book because he kind of

because he kind of gives Carter a freedom
or Katar a freedom like not you know like

I've taught you how to sing these songs you
won't sing them there's a great little story

in there about oh yeah yeah yeah these guys
came and sing these songs they are recorded

I I guarantee you I guarantee you that when
I read this as a kid I didn't get any of this

but oh oh same same here and I think that's
why this book was is not a popular book because

the book If you read it it's like an indictment
on like white America oh oh dude 100% 100%

and Truman you know when we talk about SCOUT
or something else later and we read WILDERNESS

or anything else Truman is someone who has
enormous knowledge and empathy for the indigenous

people who lived in America and SCOUT is like
a testament to that and Truman is someone

who was I think beyond Progressive for his
time as a white comics creator who not only

had like just a general empathy for oppressed
people of color and for Native Americans but

someone who did a deep dive into the research
and literally dedicated much of his career

to writing stories like this like he's taking
this DC franchise and making it a book that

very nakedly and clearly is this giant metaphor
like you're saying for like the oppression

of all of these underclasses and people and
like you know yeah where are you going to

apply that metaphor in real life who are you
going to apply it to in real life like you

know I think the answers are obvious and he
did that with SCOUT and you know it's like

he these are his topics of fascination his
fascination like his passion I should say

to tell these type of stories and I think
you feel it in the book like Truman is not

doing this because it's an assignment and
I actually have the answer to your question

here because while you're talking about just
like the history of this I I looked up this

interview with Tim Truman about HAWKWORLD
so let me let me tell you briefly this is

off of a this is off a blog called Poplitico
and it looks like the Blogger is maybe

Alex... if that's correct here I want to
give the appropriate credit but so they ask

Timothy Truman here the interviewer says,
"I

loved HAWKWORLD. Did you have the project
in

mind and pitch it or did DC say hey we really
like your stuff would you consider doing…"

and then Truman says this: "Thanks, Alex,
I'm

really proud of the work that Enriqué Alcatena

and I did on the miniseries Mike Gold the
editor contacted me as I recall I can't remember

whether or not it was to work on a HAWKMAN
reboot specifically or if he just asked me

whether or not I'd consider doing a prestige
series for DC I had been doing creator-owned

projects at the time, working exclusively
with the independent publishers first Eclipse,

Pacific, a few things for Dark Horse. I was
a bit of a snob in that regard; I wanted to

support the indies and all the advances they'd
made in regards to creator rights, I also

liked the artistic freedom that working with
the independents allowed me, so I was originally

reluctant to accept the offer from DC." "Wow,
yeah interesting." "The things that finally

swung

me were the facts that to keep in pace with
the things that the indie publishers were

offering artists and writers, mainstream publishers
like DC and Marvel, had adopted more creator-friendly

publishing policies. Also, in the mid-'80s
I had befriended classic HAWKMAN writer, Gardner

Fox. Before Gardner died, we'd actually talked
about pitching DC a new HAWKMAN series. Gardner

wanted to do a very Edgar Rice Burrow's JOHN
CARTER OF MARS-take on the character, something

very fantasy or "space opera"-oriented. Unfortunately
I had been too busy, at the time, to pursue

such a project. When I finally found time
to consider the project, Gardner had passed

away. In fact, he died the very night that
I was composing a letter to him asking him

if he'd still be interested in doing something
together. That's tragic. Very tragic, right?

It's crazy. So when Mike Gold approached me,
Gardner's original proposal to me once again

popped into my mind. He hadn't given me any
details about plot specifics or anything,

but it seemed like a cool way to pay tribute
to him, so I told Mike that I'd be willing

to give it a try. I worked up a pitch, and
he and the folks at DC really liked it. I

must say that getting the European [Spanish]
Haxtur

Award for Best Miniseries the year it appeared

was one of the proudest moments of my life."
"Wow, yeah, that's kind of awesome." I don't

know what that award is, but that's awesome
that he got a major award in Europe for the

series. OK, and then the interviewer goes
on to say… the interviewer says, "I've heard

criticisms of the piece that making HAWKMAN
thereafter a crusader for the poor seemed

like a cliché. Is that a point that you worried
about afterward?" And Truman says, "Ha, no

not in the least. Actually I hadn't heard
that one. I don't really keep up with fan

chatter like that. Seems rather strange, though.
Seems rather strange. I thought that's one

of the things that superheroes were supposed
to do… part of their original mission statement,

you know. Go figure." And then the interviewer
goes on to say, "To me, having someone overcome

addiction and rise above a worldview that
was toxic meant that the person was himself

morally poor but chose to evolve and change
that." And Truman says, "Thanks, those are

pretty much the key components of the story.
For the prestige miniseries to create this

personal arc for Katar, he begins as an idealist,
a historian who worships the old legends of

the ancient Thanagarian hero, Kalaran. He
becomes a cop to do good but starts seeing

the ugly truth about the society he's protecting.
He learns that things like the Kalaran stories

are just handy myths used to justify those
ugly truths. He gets depressed, he takes drugs

to cope, goes through a downfall that takes
him straight to the bottom of life. How he

climbs back up through that is how he becomes
a hero — it's part of his journey, his personal

evolution. At the time, I had pretty much
given up reading fiction, and I had dived

face first into hardcore studies of early
American history. I was into the deep stuff,

rare firsthand accounts, and primary source
material that were really shattering a lot

of the things that I'd been told since I was
a kid. So, HAWKWORLD drew on a lot of that.

Of course, a few years later I got to put
these investigations to use in a more direct

manner, with my graphic novel WILDERNESS:
THE TRUE STORY OF SIMON GERTY…." And then,

and then this is, like, I think, the last
bit about HAWKWORLD, here: The interviewer

says, "Your work on HAWKWORLD both redefined
and refined the character from the Silver

Age. It was adopted, and the series HAWKWORLD
came out. Later, as a result of the monthly

series, some people became confused about
the timeline and worried about continuity.

When you were creating the three-issue prestige
series, did that come up from DC, or were

you just doing your creative thing and all
of the editorial machinations happened afterward?"

Truman says, "Originally, I was only concerned
with the three-issue series; that was my only

concern. I wanted to stand… I wanted it
to stand alone, like a single SF novel or

something, a good solid Space Opera Adventure
Story, but with some meat on its bones. That's

how I worked, even on things like my SCOUT
series, to take the approach that each project

was actually a single novel with pictures."
Which is so funny, Chris, because you said

it didn't feel like a comic. Truman's approach…
Truman's approach is not typical, and like

he's outlining here, he's going to make a
single novel with pictures, and then he says,

"…However, the miniseries was extremely
successful, so as you might imagine, DC wanted

to take advantage of that and launch it as
a regular series. They wanted me to write

and draw it, but I had my sights on other
projects. I had done what I wanted to do with

the character via the miniseries, and I wanted
to move on to other things that I was eager

to get into, mainly WILDERNESS; however, DC
wanted me to be involved in some way, so I

suggested they get John Ostrander to do the
monthly, and I put in the recommendation that

they look into Graham Nolan as the artist,
as I'd worked with him on the PROWLER backup

stories at Eclipse. I told them that I would
help John co-plot the series, but I actually

served as more of a consultant…." And then
he says here, "I detected a problem right

off the bat with the continuity, though. The
story I'd told in the original three issue

series was intended to have taken place years
and years before the then-current DC continuity.

The prestige story… It was an expansion
and an elaboration of the old original initial

Garder Fox and Joe Kubert Silver Age stories
that had been set on Thanagar. I had that

notion from the start. If it had been played
that way, I believe things would have been

fine, but because it was the age of the YEAR
ONE DC series, you know, DC wanted the new

monthly series to just pick up where the prestige
had left off and have Katar and Shayera come

to Earth during then-current continuity. I
have a notoriously short attention span, so

like I say, I was just eager to move on with
my own projects. So I was like, 'Sure, it's

your property. Do what you want, have a blast.'
As a result, though, through no fault of John

Ostrander, things got a bit muddled continuity-wise.
That's what DC wanted, though, and John and

his wife, Kim Yale, certainly did some great
stories." And so, OK, so then they go on to

talk about the HAWKWORLD series that Ostrander
did a little bit, but I'll stop there. But,

there you go, that's a little bit of the background
for both of us on this crazy series that we

just read. Well, you know it's interesting…
this comment about continuity, because I remember

reading maybe ten, maybe the first year, I
don't even… the first year of that HAWKWORLD

series… I might have been disappointed by
it because it wasn't Timothy Truman's work,

you know, so maybe I didn't read more than
maybe four, five issues. It's interesting

they say that fans are upset because he's
like a crusader for the poor. See, I feel

like he's like what he is that he he's doing
it in a way in this probably in the HAWKWORLD

miniseries where it's like, I hate to say
this, but it's like, it feels like again,

like the lower classes are the immigrants
and they feel like people of color and I feel

like people might be upset at that because
it's like he's a champion for people of color

not the mainstream and not white people at
Le and that is what I think I think I honestly

believe that's why this book probably not
is not is not is not heralded to the degree

that that that you know people that it should
be and obviously they said it did well you

know I mean it had to have done here's the
thing for a prestige book what's this book

is it $4.99 at the time or something like
it's $3.95 which was super expensive at that

super I mean this is '89 where books are probably
75 cents, right? you know like if they might

they might have been up to they might have
been like up to a dollar by then but not much

more maybe maybe a dollar but so it's triple
it's triple the price of anything quadruple

$3.95 quadruple the price yeah $3.95 it was
quadruple the price of anything else and so

for a book like that to do well yeah it's
got got to sell a lot you know and and also

like the standard of that is dark knight from
two years before you know so it's like so

you got a lot of three years before so you've
got a lot that this is writing on this book

you know I you know he makes interesting points
about the Gardner Fox thing you know what

it does feel like to a degree it feels like
a FLASH GORDON thing you know if I the old

FLASH GORDON Comics which I've never seen
someone I mean like his art feels FLASH GORDON

from those old comic strips not from the stuff
that you might remember like there was that

there was that I think there was a DC comic
like a 12-issue miniseries that of FLASH GORDON

in like the late-'80s or something like that
I thought was pretty good I also that FLASH

GORDON was a series they never really got
right like nobody's got it right in terms

of like what it could be I I just don't know
if it's because the Flash character is not

that interesting I mean the rest of it is
cool Zarov and Dale and everything but that's

just my own personal thing yeah well I think
it's funny you say that because like Alex

Raymond who drew the FLASH GORDON strip is
you know one of the classic comic strip artists

of all time and now looking at the book kind
of in that light I kind of feel like Truman's

work it is sort of like it's somewhere in
between Joe Kubert and Alex Raymond in a way

because it does have some of this epic sweep
to it and you know that I like it does feel

like it doesn't feel like modern comics in
a way it feels like it just feels like it

comes from another world and another time
and like it's not anywhere near as like delicate

and like sort of you know Alex Raymond's work
had like a just a different kind of vibe and

delicacy to it but I also feel like Truman's
work doesn't just look like Joe Kubert either

it's a very unique style and a unique bunch
of influences it's very unique I mean I I

just say it's got a vibe with that FLASH GORDON
because like the thing that see the thing

that he does in this that is really well and
this is actually this is kind of like a backhanded

compliment but a lot of times the figures
aren't in dynamic poses but the way they're

composed in the frame and maybe they're silhouetted
out or like or the way the page is laying

out that when you land on a shot where someone
is just like standing there like you know

like ramrod straight is it becomes dynamic
in like in the form of comic only you know

like the individual panel might not be that
might not be like a wow because I can't think

of any like wow panels like in this thing
I mean but it's it's more like the context

of of where the panels that they kind of lay
out on how they out on the page and and things

like that because you know because it's like
that shot you know like when the first like

Shayera gets killed in the explosion like
that shot is like you know like you read down

the panel and see like her just her mouth
in frame and her face and just like I'm looking

at it I got it right here yeah yeah it's like
oh that's kind of cool the way you like drew

my eye in the same panel you know was I mean
and even that shot when like when this when

he's walking up with the time bomb like it
feels so cocking in the way that he's laid

that out in the tick tick tick tick tick tick
tick all over the page like there's a skill

to that he does that's I say it's backhanded
because it's not like it's not like Kirby

or like a John Byrne or like a Frank Miller
you know or or anybody like Alan Davis kind

of like these really like exciting kinds of
poses and stuff like that he doesn't really

do exciting poses but his work works without
that and it's interesting because he's it's

like he's doing a book this preher book
you know he's not a hero yet so he's not drawing

anybody epic in their you know design and
costuming and how they're shaped in the frame

everything but it still works it still works
really really well with and that's why when

I say it doesn't AFF a comic 2 it's like it
doesn't feel old-fashioned either you know

that's not what I'm I mean if anyone look
these pages and the show notes we'll put some

scans in there it doesn't feel old-fashioned
at all it just feels like you said like it's

unique like no one else working like I can't
think of anybody yeah you bring Alex r i could

can't remember who drew FLASH but I can't
think of anybody in the last 40 years who

art like like like kind of feels within this
realm you know like what he's doing like you

said like like the like the dirtiness of it
you know guy who's his boy not his boy but

his training officer you know who's who's
like in the first issue like like he feels

grubby like he made that guy feel grubby and
I was like tot how did you do that like how

did you do that yeah well it's it's amazing
to think about it Chris because yeah you're

right like who are Tim Truman's influences
looking at his work he's such a deeply American

cartoonist and an American writer-artist in
terms of his own like areas of interest and

and study and subject matter like it's really
kind of interesting looking at the work because

when I look at some of these pages they do
look more like European comics than anything

that going on in American mainstream comics
like a lot of this stuff like when he's exiled

on the island and all the stuff in issue too
I'm like if you told me this was in like an

album that was published by like Humanoids
and it was some artist that I've never heard

of from Europe I would believe it I'd be like
oh yeah okay that makes sense more than like

a DC Comics house style at that time so Truman
like his influences are fascinating and and

he's one of these guys also I think in the
spirit of somebody we've talked about a lot

before on the show but in a very different
way somebody like like Trevor Von Eeden who

draws very very differently than Truman but
very much very much so but the thing that

kind of reminds me about Von Eden and a lot
of artists that I love that Truman also exhibits

is that I don't feel like Truman is working
from the same formula from page to page I

feel like Truman is like inventing new things
and new modalities new kind of techniques

for expressing and showing like the passage
of time and different moments and and he feels

like he's not just working kind of like you
know like you've said a lot in the show too

Chris that certain artists just have like
a template for like all the characters they

draw and they just put like you know different
hair color different wig different whatever

on them and you know there's some artists
who I [ __ ] love who do that like Howard

Chaykin you know like Chaykin all Chaykin's
guys and Byrne does does that Yes Totally

and that's

like a classic comic book artist thing right
it's like you got your template of your certain

people you draw and here's how you draw them
you know boom boom boom Truman doesn't do

that and that's what I love about artists
like [Trevor] Von Eeden you know Denys Cowan

a lot of guys you know that we've praised
on the show Larry Strohman and Timothy Truman

I think is in that same school of these artists
where you look at their work and you're like

oh like he's a drawer in a way that is like
really like a throwback to just like artists

from another age like you look at this guy
who's making the wing on the island like this

guy that that that that Katar ultimately kills
like look at how loving look at how lovingly

drawn that panel is of this guy like like
that could be framed on a wall it's stunning

it's a stunning image it's it's it's but see
here's the thing we talking about a lot

but it's like but look Alcatena and Sam Parsons
his collaborators Thank You thank you for

saying that they really take his work because
I think a lot of what makes it grubby and

dirty is the inking and the coloring yeah
you you're right thank you it's a really it's

a really really it's a really it's a great
the three of them are collaborating on a level

that's a little like astounding for just not
being like I mean I don't know if they're

like a if this is the first time they've work
together or what have you but you know it

feels like this is a team that been that has
done a lot of work together maybe they have

maybe they haven't which is it might be rare
to have have been able to like just capture

this lightning in a bottle but you know but
there's some of those panels I just I just

like like like that we mentioned earlier when
when Shayera the first is about to shoot him

and there's that pan at the bottom of the
page and it's like and they're walking off

in different directions it's it's it's kind
of like they're partially in silhouette but

there's like a little bit of like there's
some light wrapping around them and giving

them like a little bit of color as they're
walking and I was like oh this is like like

these guys are doing really cool [ __ ]
at the time this was interesting right this

might not seem interesting to people now but
you got to realize this is pre-computer color

this is pre-computer color and to have this
ability to do this kind of like delicate like

like color transitions and rendering and stuff
like that and use of inks to help you know

like it's really I mean it's like that's the
thing about those prestige mini series is

they're drawing it's being reproduced on that
board that backer paper you that you know

that is that that allows you to do something
that they're able to do now but they couldn't

do then like it's funny just side note on
that is the other day I was talking with a

friend of mine and we were looking at THE
GOLDEN AGE that Paul that James Robinson and

Paul Smith thing that Richard Ory colored
and my boy who is we looking at like he

was there he's a car designer for Mazda right
he's worked at Mazda Toyota he's all stuff

and he could have sworn that THE GOLDEN AGE
was computer color he just could have sworn

it was computer color and we got kind of like
not an argument but we were kind of got into

debate and we were like I don't know I don't
really know I don't really know I really know

and I said to myself I'm gonna solve this
this battle we have I'm gonna solve this and

and the thing I did is I [ __ ] sent you
know I sent Richard Ory a text on Facebook

"Hey dude..." oh my God... I said, "Hey Richard...
Quick

question: You were the car artist on the Elseworld's

the THE GOLDEN AGE... How did you do the coloring?
Computer or mixed media?" And he comes back,

and he's like, "Gouache opaque watercolor
and

Windsor Newton; specifically, I applied it
with

a single-action 30-year-old airbrush or
by hand with sable number three brushes...

the

final whiting are applied with teeny tiny
little brushes by hand. Does that help?" and

he goes, oh "...Oh and PrismaColor pencils,
the

the painted highlights on top of that, no
layers

really. This is a few years before computers."
And it's like wow, that's a lot of [ __ ]

work to color it, and I realized again like
Elseworld was again one of these, at least,

that

Elseworld were that GOLDEN AGE which maybe
like

two or three years later than this book was

it was one of these prestige books and the
the coloring they do on this is painted stuff

you know it's all painted and this guy said
about his hand painted [ __ ] gouache and

watercolors and it's and when you look at
this book you see this like that scene of

the island when he's like looking at those
wings and he's holding them up and then then

the dude gets pull back from his Jack and
he's got wings on anyway it's like there's

this like the use of color to help tell the
dramatic points as to punctuate stuff in the

story is really really strong and really really
really really potent because when he holds

those wings up like he's in silhouette right
but the background is kind of like this kind

of like this ATOMIC REDS and [ __ ] like
that I was like goddamn like this is like

such a smart way of of using color to help
tell your story to help drive the emotions

like in a way that you just don't that again
like he was saying the like the novelistic

approach to this that he's doing it fits with
how he's deploying color and finding these

guys to do the his co-collaborators like on
this because it's like wow dude like that's

such cool ass [ __ ] that you know I mean
like I mean look the color in the Lynn Varley

did in in DARK KNIGHT is really cool it's
not as cool as this it's it's it's not as

cool as THE GOLDEN AGE you know wow that's
a bold statement yeah I mean and for those

people who are wondering about THE GOLDEN
AGE I think we'll do an episode on that we're

gonna definitely cover that That's like it's
one of my all time [favorite] series It's

up there with like it's up there with THE
ALIEN LEGION as being one of my favorite w

[ __ ] you know yeah you don't have to convince
me man because it's Paul Smith it's Paul Smith

and that's like that is my favorite era of
Paul Smith is like X-MEN and going into THE

GOLDEN AGE and for me for me personally I
was less of a fan of like the LEAVE IT TO

CHANCE and beyond work for some reason like
the changes in his style you know it's still

it's still beautiful work but for me like
THE GOLDEN AGE and X-MEN that's like my favorite

Paul Smith yeah for sure for sure beautiful
work and and wasn't he doing Phil up like

fill-in work on NEXUS from Yes he was he was
filling in for Steve Rude which is obviously

just insane Yeah and he's like the only guy
who could fill in for Steve Rude like probably

the only Totally Other people did but he's
the only whose style is very it's dramatically similar

It's not copying but it's like it
feels within the same kind of universe but

yeah but these the back to HAWKWORLD like
the like the one thing that's interesting

is how he does the coloring when he does like
those creatures in the Underworld you know

and everything like there's a like there there's
the it's so super saturated like this whole

book is to a degree you know that it's except
for the part when he when he kills his dad

that part is not and I wonder if that's just
like because he's trying to like you know

that little chase to the sewers is is more
high contrast I wonder if that's just because

he's trying to like tell the story differently
and make it feel more black and white as it

gets to that that really really harsh moment
within the story you know I I don't I'd be

curious to just be able to talk to these people
go so what were you trying to do here is this

this I'm interpreting like what you did no
well I think with these books man like there's

clearly so much thought going into a lot of
the books that we've been covering I think

to all the books that we've covered on the
show there's so much intentionality and you

know this was at a moment where comics were
being taken seriously in kind of an unprecedented

way in the wake of DARK KNIGHT and in the
wake of WATCHMEN and MAUS and all this stuff

you know like late-'80s so this is a moment
where like comic creators were able to be

ambitious and take these huge swings and I
think that someone like Tim Truman took maximum

advantage of that here and took this quote
unquote DARK KNIGHT format and told an incredibly

just unrelentingly intense story that deals
with socioeconomic factors political factors

and of course cloaks it all in science fiction
but this is a brutal story I mean I just I

can't get over the moment on the island in
issue two where you know Katar Hall has been

basically like set up and like put into a
situation where he accidentally kills his

own father and that's like a whole bunch of
plot stuff we don't have to get into but he's

exiled to this island for 10 years for 10
[ __ ] years on this island and he has he's

got his wings are taken away from him the
wings he had as part of Thanagar police force

and on the island he comes across some like
alien creature dude who I referenced and we

talked about earlier who is drawn so lovingly
that it's just heartbreaking for like on almost

like a full page illustration and this alien
creature dude is like is building some wings

and Katar ...Katar our hero creeps up behind
this lovingly rendered old alien creature

and Katar grabs a [ __ ] rock and he [ __ ]
bludgeons and beats this dude to death from

behind like sneaks up and [ __ ] kills this
guy from behind And this is our hero this

is our hero this is like it's such an unapologetically
brutal depiction of one of the major Heroes

of the DC Universe it's like Hey you know
that Hawkman character you love? OK well he

murdered his father and then after murdering
his father he was exiled to to an island where

he brutally like snuck up behind and murdered
this old alien for no reason OK are you with

me? This is our hero this Hawkman Oh and he
was a drug addict he was a major drug addict

like this is like the wildest origin for Hawkman
and I love it Here's the thing he has a reason

he wants the guy's wings is he realizes how
important it is to have the wings but but

the thing that but the undercut is that guy
was making those wings for him yeah yeah right

that's right the guy's brother shows up yeah
yeah because his brother and him go oh no

we already have wings in our back you know
like it's part of our like it's part of our

like genes it's part of our you know like
you know like physiology we have wings like

these are for you and it's just like I mean
it sends him into the spiral of despair where

he's just like yeah [ __ ] man and it's
like but again like it it again this goes

back to see what Truman said about how read
these firsthand accounts about what happened

to America when it first got founded see that's
a similar thing where it's like where it feels

like Hey the Europeans came here and the and
the Native Americans were ready to give them

[ __ ] but they you know like you know like
killed them thinking we're gonna take we'll

be raping pillaging like no no no we were
gonna give you this like for free anyway It's

such a a striking metaphor of like here's
what you know like here's the history of white

America again with the indigenous people and
again they're saying yeah these gu like like

those people on the island were there they
were brought here for without without their

free will forced to sing songs that were recorded
and then stolen from them and then when they

were couldn't and the songs were done they
were exiled to this island where they could

even go back home and I was like there's a
level of like the like the historic socioeconomic

kind of repression that goes on in America
that this guy I mean this like this book is

so ahead of its time like if this book came
out now yeah people like this like like this

book would be in like like major publications
being reviewed you know like THE NEW YORK

TIMES it should it should be I mean they all
be talking about because of what it's saying

and what it's doing and he's doing this like
34 years ago you know it's like what the [ __ ]

dude or 33 years ago it's like dude that's
you know it's it's pretty insane but again

like that's the thing that makes certain science
fiction really really good is these guys who

write it they're able to see things that are
like patterns that we don't don't quite see

yet you know and that's what makes science
fiction really [ __ ] awesome is you can

be one of those guys who does do that you
know like I always marvel at the Spielberg

film MINORITY REPORT right like he's the first
one who come up with hand gestures to interface

with computers you know because you see that
in oh yeah we never saw that in a movie before

the way it's done in that film yeah but just
to use hand because you know it's because

it's if you look because if you look at this
funny thing in this book is every once in

a while if you go back and look at some old
science fiction they do [ __ ] that is funny

like you look at old STAR TREK you look at
this right they're like recording stuff on

videotape or they're like you know there's
like a distill and it's like no no no no no

like which y'all didn't realize nobody realized
was it was all going to be like saved on the

computer and it was going to be memory only
I mean it's just it's the digital age hadn't

hit anybody yet And I think this the fascinating
thing about this book too is that it's like

he's but it's like you know if you're able
to look at what's happening and shape and

go here's my forethought of what the damage
could be for where we are I mean to degree

too but see but also you know we're saying
a lot about how it's like Americans or white

Americans are playing out like you know like
the pr of color everything like that but he

makes an interesting point about what else
is H what else is happening at that time in

America this is the late 80s and a lot of
American industry is being outsourced and

a lot of people were losing their jobs and
thank you thank you Bill Clinton well yeah

well Clinton and Reagan and everything like
that and it's kind of like oh he but and there's

a couple scenes in this book where there's
some monologues where they complain that like

nothing made on Tanager anymore it's all [ __ ]
out yeah you're right dude that's a great

point I totally didn't catch that yeah I was
like oh he's talking about what's going on

in America right now it's like cars are being
sent overseas like all this outsourcing and

like food and our clothes and all this kind
of stuff and at the time it was all going

to like Japan and Mexico and stuff like that
but but now it's all going to China in the

intervening years but it's like he but he
still knew that America that the elite class

was getting rich off of the backs of the lower
people by sending all their jobs off world

or you know or offshore and I think that's
like a really cool point that he's able to

like he's able to filter into the book and
I again again you know you're reading this

book you know when you're 10, 12 or something
like that maybe a little older I don't know

15, 18, 20 I don't know if you get all that
CU because I don't know how much you know

like is that happening like is it so front
and center in America at that point is this

is like a NEW YORK TIMES cover story is a
times cover story about this outsourcing stuff

like that what's and what is it doing to the
social fabric of America like is it I mean

it's not I mean it's like I don't remember
that being so it was so new at the time it's

five years later you know in '95 '96 yeah
was talking about now because everything's

been gutted but at this time when he's writing
this book probably in 88 or I mean he's pitching

this in the wake of DARK KNIGHT right for
it to come out in ' 89 he's got to pitch it

and this is 48 so it's 48 pages times three
so that's like 120 or more whatever 150 some

pages so that's the equivalent of like what
like six you know six seven it's like the

equivalent it's the equivalent of like a six
issue series at the time yes six so you just

back that out and it's like okay he had to
start doing this in like '88 you know at least

the idea and get it approved oh yeah and you
know and I'm not sure how fast these guys

work so but so that stuff is all kind of like
it was happening like he was like seeing what

was happening and going okay wait a minute
wait a minute this is what this is where it

it could worse be you know it's sort of like
in BLADE RUNNER when like you see like you

know like there's all those like those old
those old like there's that Pan Am thing and

the these weird kind of like weird companies
that that didn't exist like a few even a few

years later and like Ataris in there kind
of played up big and stuff like that it's

just a it's just a weird thing where people
were able to kind of look at what's happening

and see oh I remember saying it's like this
was like MINORITY REPORT because it wasn't

until like a few like so he has that thing
with the hand gestures the MINORITY REPORT

right the Tom Cruise with the glove on it
wasn't until probably like five six seven

years later that they had that first trackpad
on a computer you know like a like a like

because it didn't exist you know you they
put it in MINORITY REPORT that you could do

that you could go oh we can control the mouse
interface with our hands not just the mouth

you we don't need a mouse or a stylus because
remember at the time people were like styluses

were getting big like those things called
Palm Pilots and [ __ ] like that was all

exploding and stuff like that and it's just
interesting that what this guy's doing in

his book when he's trying to like keep the
keep the technology as kind of like as neutral

as he can so it doesn't really date you know
because nothing in it is really dated you

know they're just using guns using explosives
they're using these the wings that are for

any gravity you know they're not even like
feathered wings they're just like you know

just pieces of metal yeah yeah that was that
was a really unique choice that was made here

too that obviously was a a huge Point of departure
visually and aesthetically from the previous

HAWKMAN iterations is these Hawks they have
metal wings that are based on the technology

of of Thanagar that Katar's father invented
but they're not the feathered wings that we've

come to know in the DC canon prior to this
so this was kind of like you know Tim Truman

sort of reinventing Hawkman visually kind
of like John Byrne had done with SUPERMAN

and of course Frank Miller had done with BATMAN
George Perez did with WONDER WOMAN at that

time and Truman kind of did the same thing
with HAWKMAN but I think it's really just

it's so intriguing to hear what you're saying
Chris about how much Truman was commenting

on the times and even like you know shipping
all of our jobs overseas and America and all

that because you're right now that you say
that that seems really obvious that that's

something else that he was clearly observing
in the society in America and putting in here

also and I think that I mean this is why I
love Tim Truman so much I really feel like

you know this is what an artist and a storyteller
is supposed to do you're supposed to look

at the world around you you're supposed to
cloak it in metaphor you're supposed to think

of what you think the world ought to be what
the world could be what's [ __ ] up in the

world you see around you and you're supposed
to spit it back out in a way that's like filtered

through your own unique perceptions ideas
idiosyncrasies whatever and I think that Tim

Truman took the job of being a storyteller
more seriously I shouldn't say it in past

tense he's still alive he takes the job of
being a storyteller more seriously than a

lot of American mainstream artists really
ever have because he put more of a signature

more of his own heart into these books and
into all the work he did than the vast majority

of American writer-artists that I can think
of just in terms of how personal all of his

stories are they all kind of revolve around
these same themes of like imperialism and

like taking things from dispossessed people
and trying to figure out how to make sense

of America and the history of America and
how to make sense of it and how to how to

kind of justify what's been done in the name
of this particular country and obviously it's

universally applicable America's not the only
country that's done a lot of these things

but I think Truman looking at it through his
lens he had a really deep feeling for these

issues and clearly he wanted to keep talking
about them and so much of his work revolved

around them I mean I just think it's incredible
that he's an artist that existed in mainstream

comics drawing [ __ ] stories about you
know Hawk superheroes in this case but somehow

figured out a way to make it so meaningful
and so just like relevant to the world and

it does feel really ahead of its time it's
very serious storytelling there's not a lot

of humor and a lot of lightness here but this
is just genuinely a masterful piece of comic

art and of course we we've both got our quibbles
you know we're not saying that this is like

the perfect miniseries or anything I do feel
like issue three is way too abrupt I I really

think he needed a couple more issues to kind
of really land the plane with the story in

the way that I think it deserved but still
having said that this is a masterfully-drawn

series and it's also a shockingly well-written
series in large part you know granted the

abrupt ending or whatever but I really feel
like there's a ton of stuff here that is just

beautifully done and once again because I
feel like this is my place on the show I got

to always call it out like these are some
really striking covers as well and the three

covers on HAWKWORLD are really well-designed
and well-drawn and particularly issue one

is good and it's got an iconic flavor to it
for sure but I feel like issues two and three

in particular I find incredibly striking and
I think the colors are great the illustrations

on these covers are striking these are these
are beautifully-designed books and I'm super

glad that you shouted out Alcatena on the
inks and Parsons on the colors man because

everything you said was spot-on like these
are masterful artists all around Alcatena

is a legendary inker and brings an incredible
texture and grimness and like that lived-in

quality that we were talking about I think
Alcatena is a huge part of that well yeah

because there's like I remember like the thing
that stands out to me like really like you

in the griminess is like somewhere in issue
three when we like when we first see that

he is able to control his body there's like
there's like these three panels of his chest

right and like as his chest begins to like
morph into like a mouth or like a something

like that but there's that middle panel right
before it becomes like a creature where you

kind of see like it's like it's being it's
almost like a chest-burster like a chest you

know and it's like it feels so visceral the
way that's inked and colored it's like goddamn

dude like you can it's so palpable that's
not just the pencil art on that you know like

it needed the color and the inking to really
sell home what he was trying to like I mean

what he did convey there you know I mean it's
interesting what you said about I mean this

is the thing about comic work right there's
not a lot of who work in mainstream comics

who work at DC and stuff like that Marvel
who are writer artists you know there's always

a lot of writers there's great writers and
there's great artists and they're usually

very separate and there's a few guys like
obviously a Miller and John Byrne you know

I mean there's some other guys who get to
the point where they were like telling stories

on their own like maybe Walt Simonson is doing
a story or sure sure and George Perez George

Perez did eventually but the guys who were
known and always doing that you know like

a Miller early on and everything like that
and and I think there's a different way of

those guys I think tell stories differently
I think that it goes it's like Tim Truman

because he's at this point he's been doing
his own like writing and art-ing it's like

Jim Starlin was the same way when he's like
doing DREADSTAR it's kind of like and that

it's also like that one THE LIFE AND DEATH
OF CAPTAIN MARVEL was he's writing and drawing

you know it's like it's like you're able to
kind of like you know I talk about this a

lot when I tell people about screenwriting
it's like the battle you have is the battle

between your brain and the words on the page
like trying to like like that gap like you

get really good when you can reduce the gap
between what you're thinking about and what

you get on the page I think that these artists
these writer-artist comic guys they're as

writers they're able to get they're able to
shorten that gap more because they're doing

the art you know and it's like oh I you know
what like they figure out what they like it's

like they figure out what's more essential
like what's the most essential because like

you were saying before he rolled those panels
out where silent stuff you know I don't think

a lot of people like would feel I So much
...I don't

think a lot of writers solely writers would

feel comfortable leaving five pages of no
dialogue at all no f'ing way no way I mean

it's I mean

we haven't talked about this on the show we
you have talk about this like you know like

in life hanging out those like that one those
two or three issues we know of like full of

like silent comics like that one G.I. JOE
and that one like EAST OF WEST where it's

like dude to have the… chutzpah [laughter]
as the writer

to say I'm not gonna put one word of dialogue

on any of these 22 pages you know it's probably
like what is at least five, six panels a page

so you're looking at like over a hundred panels
I refuse to put one word down wow like I mean

there's I mean there's some confidence and
courage in that and this guy's able to do

that in this book quite a lot you know and
I think he's only able to do that because

he's drawing it and writing it you know whereas
I think if he was just writing it I mean that's

why when he was saying you see wanted him
to like write and draw the hog world book

I was like he wouldn't be able to do that
you know like I mean I like I know he did

them I like this book I think was by monthly
I don't know what the what the with the GRIMJACK

he had to he had to have a lot of lead time
on this like I I don't know if it's bi-monthly

or monthly but he had he had to have a ton
of lead time they're 48-page prestige issues

they're so well thought out I mean yeah and
it's painted art it's painted art so I mean

like I said I bet you I bet you they pitched
this book and got him to do it in like the

wake of DARK KNIGHT in like '87 and it comes
out two years later so he's got to pitch it

he's got to write it he's got to ink it and
it's gonna get painted by dude and that's

not like and even it was a bi-monthly schedule
the book is too complicated in everything

about it in terms of like not understanding
but the complexity of the complexity of the

production process of this would necessitate
probably like 12 months to to get these six

months of storytelling out you know yeah which
is I mean but you're only able to do that

if you really have a strong belief in what
you're trying to do and say and can sustain

that vision for that long because if it's
taken him a year to do this and he's got to

get painted and because you know one thing
you know if you're going to spend a year on

a book in general is a lot of time from your
life as any artist any writer any penciler

or whatever it is but you know but that's
12 issues blah blah blah see three issues

with a singular story it's I mean but it pays
off in how he's able to execute it because

of what he wants to say you know he's got
a lot of themes in here you know I kind of

love there's a moment you know in the beginning
of issue one when he's when they when they're

down there in the Underworld and he sees that
statue of like what's it called oh yeah camaran

and he but but when he goes home after that
first night and he has that little necklace

that he puts on that is the thing he puts
it on the hand of the camaran statue that's

in his apartment you know yes and then I think
later on issue three he like like does he

leave it on the island yeah it's like one
of the final shots we see in one of the one

of the issues was it issue two or three where
he leaves his necklace behind on the island

which I think now reading the interview with
Truman where he was talking about what that

represented I'm thinking now that kind of
means that it was the young naive Katar leaving

behind his illusions of what he thought like
the mythology these like folk heroes of Thanagar

what he thought was all about and now he's
been confronted with the stark reality of

the horror and the degradation of all these
races of aliens and now he's like he's disabusing

himself of these childish notions of like
the folk hero he's believed in and now he's

returning stripped of that naïveté back
you

know to to try to fight for what's right because

I mean it sound it sounds like from what he's
saying it's like I'm really nonfiction it's

like oh it's it's like you know like I believed
in like Davey Crocket and like Paul Bunyan

and and General Custer because we hear about
the all the time you know just like in passing

in the culture but if you go back and read
the true accounts you're like [ __ ] these

people they were [ __ ] criminals and monsters
you know and I kind of feel like that's what

he he is like you know like he's expressing
in you know like his art here I mean it's

interesting it's to see like what like what
he was into filtered into the work you know

so so much so much man and that's why that's
why I say I feel like Tim Truman and genuinely

to me like I think that he is heralded in
some circles but I think not nearly enough

in proportion to the significance of the work
he did because like his his work it just it

represent so much of who he was and he was
[ __ ] saying something and how many people

do that in American comics how many people
[ __ ] take their corporate paycheck and

then say something meaningful about the world
that they deeply believe in you know like

that they think is [ __ ] important and
honestly to me this is why I fell in love

with comics is like these messages these ideas
being like almost smuggled into these stories

that were then largely you know considered
for children even though comics were quote

unquote growing up in the 80s but just the
fact that like you know a kid could read these

stories that were so neatly applicable to
American imperialism and the way that you

know we treat dispossessed people in our country
like this meant something to Tim Truman and

he wanted the things that were like rattling
around in his head that were keeping him up

at night to be in his work and I think I've
read other interviews with him where he just

said like if I'm paraphrasing but he said
something like that he didn't he didn't even

know how to do work that was going to be just
an assignment like he didn't like he didn't

have like that desire that ability like he
had to put himself yeah he had to put himself

in it and like that's what you're supposed
to do right but like how few people actually

do that that and I just I love that his work
has such a clear ethical and moral signature

to it you know that like you can be like that's
Tim Truman yeah I mean I I think I I mean

I would theorize the reason why he's not so
well known is outside of this book I don't

think he's done any kind of mainstream art
you know like like you know like this book

in terms of like someone who like took their
their sociopolitical beliefs and stamped it

in a comic is kind of like the Martha Washington
books that Frank Miller did you know like

those are his kind of like look at America
yeah and and Dave Gibbons Dave Gibbons yeah

term like in terms of like the the his hypocrisy
of it and I feel like I feel like you know

Frank does that after SIN CITY after DARK
KNIGHT after DAREDEVIL after the other run

at Marvel he's become like a big name and
you know like Truman doesn't have outside

of HAWKWORLD you know again because this book
was four times four times the cost of anything

see here's the thing about DARK KNIGHT right,
like Batman is a super popular character,

you know, so people are gonna pay [extra for
those], but that's even more they like well

that comic for 60 cents so they're gonna pay
for that, but Hawkman was never really, like

he's not… He's a third-tier character, like
he's even below Aquaman's tier of… probably,

I'm just saying, because… remember there
was a Peter David run of AQUAMAN that was

actually really really [ __ ] good, you
know, I can't remember who did the art for

that someone I really really liked… Is it
Gary Frank, the art for that? Was that Jim

Jim Calif calor who did the art? oh yeah yeah
well well he did part of it I think two guys

were on that run cuz there's the one where
the hand got eaten off that was was was was

Gary Frank but maybe not Gary Frank but some
some around that era but it's like but you

know but but but like MARTIAN MANHUNTER and
Adam and you know and Hawkman and Aquaman

are and are all kind of in the same kind of
like you know breath you know and I don't

know if I mean like you know like if Truman
is doing like a WONDER WOMAN book, then maybe

he's got more a you know...

STEVEN: Yeah, I think you're right, Chris.
Totally. He didn't do those big books, he

didn't do the big characters one other book
that I would love for us to possibly talk

about On this show is a book I've never read
from Truman that he did with John Ostrander

he did this book called THE KENTS, THE KENTS
as in Clark Kent's ancestors… Oh I know

that book, I know that book, and it's 12 issues…
it's like, you know, I haven't read it. I

haven't read it, but I know it say same same
and Ostrander wrote it and Truman drew every

issue of it. It's 12 issues; it's a 272-page
paperback collection of that story. It's a

major significant story, and I believe it
was written at by John Ostrander as something

of an homage to his wife, Kim Yale, who had
originally I think wanted to co-write that

story with him or, I think, it might …I
forget, it might have been her idea, but it

was a story that Ostrander was originally
going to co-write with wife, and she passed

away, but then Ostrander still wrote it, I
think, as a bit of a tribute. And then Truman

drew the whole book, all 12 issues of it,
and from what I recall it's a book that I

believe I've heard Truman talk about is something
he's extremely proud of, and it's like getting

into like a Western about the ancestors of
the Clark Kent the Kent family but it makes

sense that he's doing that because if because
if part of his preoccupation is the history

of America like a true history of America
if he's telling the kin it's 12 issues I mean

it's like is he telling people who came over
on the Mayflower type of like is that where

you know what I'm saying because I because
like if it's 12 issues I would wager that

issue 12 is when we meet Jonathan and Martha
Kent who, you know, That's a good guess. I'm

saying I mean like I mean …that's not a
wager, because it feels like for him to do

that, that's what he would do, but again that's
more like that's like C-level characters that

he's working on at Marvel, I mean like at
DC, he's done no Marvel work, you know, that

I know of, so no, but I think that's why he's
not… I mean look, people don't know enough

about GRIMJACK, you know, to really because…
that's where he did the lion's share of his

art Oh yeah well GRIMJACK and also and SCOUT
he did a ton of issues with SCOUT yeah yeah

yeah, but I just feel like that's why that's
why people don't know about that's why people

don't talk about I mean I mean you know I
mean I mean like like the one guy what's the

guy who is it? Tim King, his name, Tim King,
the guy right now,

STEVEN: Tom. Tom King.

CHRIS: Tom King. Tom King. I mean like the
first thing is I ever read [from him] was

that SHERIFF OF BABYLON book, you know, that
he… you know, and I was like, "Oh, this

is a really cool Vertigo book," and this is
a guy who I could see doing a bunch of these

…stories about his experience in the war,
and everything like that, but he pivots into

doing, you know, BATMAN and doing like these
mainstream books, and then he becomes a well-championed

writer, because he's doing stuff that he knows
that the tried-and-true comic audience is

gonna read BATMAN, SUPERMAN, SPIDER-MAN, X-MEN,
regardless of who's writing it, and that's

why you, as a creator, you want those… you
want that job, because it gets you the widest

possible people reading your stuff, who then
might follow you to other books, you know,

because, right now, I'm reading that [Tom]
King book, [THE] HUMAN TARGET, you know, which

is, I mean, I only got two issues I've read,
but it's …really [ __ ] good, but …it's

like he couldn't do THE HUMAN TARGET or that
MR. MIRACLE or the one of Adam Strange [STRANGE

ADVENTURES] he couldn't do those coming after
SHERIFF OF BABYLON, Yeah You know, he had

to do

the BATMAN run Yeah to get the prestige and
the

faith and like oh my God like you so lot of

comics every month by your name alone for
him to do that kind of stuff and that's where

Tim Truman he just chose not I mean you know
I mean I mean look he he doesn't have to do

it I'm not lamenting his choices but I'm saying
like that's why I think people don't know

about this HAWKMAN book this HAWKWORLD book
enough you know because I think you're right

he didn't do a big book beforehand you know
yeah no I think you're spot-on and part of

me loves that Truman never did because I think
it's a very "punk rock" kind of iconoclastic

choice to just be like No, I'm good I'm just
gonna keep doing my own stuff like I'm going

to do I'm gonna do GRIMJACK I'm gonna do SCOUT
I'm gonna go do you know these actual stories

about the American West that I'm gonna then
figure out ways to sell that are outside of

traditional comic book distribution and these
are the things that are my greatest passions

and this is like the legacy that I want to
leave behind And, you know, God bless him

for figuring out a way to make that work in
his life, because I think the end result is

that we have a like a canon of Tim Truman
work that is ultimately very significant,

and you know I think ultimately will be more
meaningful to comic's history than if he had

done maybe the smarter moves economically
in some ways like I think he he followed his

passion and he figured out a way to make it
work, and you know for everyone listening

if you are curious about Tim Truman, hearing
us talking about him so much, go check out

his bibliography online; he's been an extremely
prolific comics creator —there's no shortage

of work — he's drawn hundreds and hundreds
of issues of comics; it's just that he's chosen

to do it his way— No superhero stuff —Yeah
and like And in American comics, making that

kind of a decision renders you like such a…
like an incredible, you know, outlier, in

the medium in America yeah mean it's like
those guys that you like who we love who like

Terry Moore you know like Terry Moore is a
[ __ ] great guy who STRANGERS IN PARADISE

like I'm not sure if he ever did any kind
of mainstream books, if he did, they never

really hit the way STRANGERS IN PARADISE did..
I mean what's his name who we [ __ ] love

Paul Pope oh yeah always THB and stuff like
that trip rip off and all that kind of stuff

and heavy liquid like he doesn't really get
it big 'til he does that like Batman 1000

or something like that yeah yeah BATMAN: YEAR
100 or whatever it was yeah and then he's

like And now he does stuff every once in a
while that's like the mainstream title but

it's like you know he had to get there you
know it's David Mack's the same way you know

like David Mack he's doing that KABUKI stuff,
which is arguably his best work, but the minute

he starts doing those those covers for DAREDEVIL
or that one little the Interiors 2, he becomes

a different type of you know like people then
like people, then, want to go get his KABUKI

and they buy those hardbacks and those Image
trades that he has and that's that what sustains

him probably like, financially, in a way that
is better for him, you know, I mean he still

does like there was a really great cover he
did for WONDER WOMAN recently …the new launch

of that I mean like these artists who are
like true not saying that these other people

aren't artists not on no level Oh yeah no,
no, not at all, but like but David Mack I

mean he's known for doing like a [ __ ]
his books are he did a watercolor book for

DAREDEVIL like who the [ __ ] is doing that?
like no one else probably has the the skill

set Mmhm you know or the skill set it's not
necessarily in the technique of putting on…

painting with water colors I bet a bunch of
them can do that but he's able to do that

on for a monthly book right that means he's
got a command of that craft and knows and

he knows like some shortcuts to get this [ __ ]
to look really really good and you remember

you look at some of this KABUKI stuff and
it's like some of these like there's like

hand-drawn inkings that these it's just painted
and these weird little images and like and

just all this kind of like what like he created
a texture on the page be beyond what the figures

and stuff like that were doing and I was like,
"I don't know how you do any of this… like,

your brain is on fire," and it always amazing
work and Tim Truman's work it appears the

same way I kind of remember always wanted
to see him do something like did he ever do

a BATMAN book I think I think he might have
done like little little one-offs little something

like that I think you know just based on the
decisions he's made because clearly he had

the opportunity or people wanted him to do
this kind of stuff I'm sure he was offered

millions of times these opportunities I think
he's deeply disinterested in like a lot of

these superhero characters and I just think
it's not what he wanted to do, because, you

know, even when he would dabble and work for
DC it was like he did a JONAH HEX …JONAH

HEX miniseries yeah WESTERN you know he did
that when he came to DC also we mentioned

THE BLACK LAMB for Vertigo or not for Vertigo
for Helix, DC's fascinating and short-lived

sci-fi imprint, Right, you know, he just I
think

he just really doesn't give a [ __ ] about

superheroes, and, you know, it's just a cool
thing… It's not where his head's at. You

know, he's done some CONAN, we were talking
about CONAN earlier today before we recorded,

he's done some CONAN, and he's done some SERGEANT/SGT.
ROCK, but you know these are all on the fringes

of mainstream comics… SERGEANT/SGT. ROCK
I remember I remember that, SERGEANT/SGT.

ROCK, from the '90s… yeah yeah yeah yeah
yeah and also I'll just say as a caveat I

feel like every time we talk about you know
comics I always want to give the caveat that

like when we say that you know most artists
don't like — or they feel like they have

to do, rather — superhero comics, you know
we're talking about mainstream genre comic

artists who were doing stories in American
comics that are like adventure-fiction genre-fiction,

etc. etc., you know We're well aware that
Fantagraphics and Drawn & Quarterly and, you

know, a million other publishers… Top Shelf…
exist where American cartoonists or you know

One Press yeah everyone's doing you know comics
that are not superheroes that are you know

the quote unquote "indie comics" …and art…
"art comics," and all that, and I love that

and that's great, but what we're talking about,
by and large, here, is we're talking about

the cats who are, you know, considered the
DC and the Marvel — the mainstream artists

who are being offered these opportunities
on superhero books — and for a guy like

Truman to pass up on all that money and all
that visibility, it's just a fascinating decision,

and I think it's worth considering, well,
yeah, it's fascinating, because I mean, look,

you know, there's a lot of guys… there's
a lot of guys who I always say to myself,

"Why haven't you done a creator-owned book?
Why wouldn't you do a creator-owned book?"

You know? Is it… like…? Carlos Pacheco,
I mean, there's somebody who I [ __ ] always

wanted to see do a creator-owned book….
Oh, I meant to tell you, we talked about Pacheco

last time… how he had done that book with
Kurt Busiek, ARROWSMITH, back in the day….

They just launched a sequel to that, and I
meant to… I was going to text you about

it I to text you about it like they just the
other day yeah because we talked about it

and then I was at the shop and I saw it and
I was like what the [ __ ] like the ARROWSMITH

is back! It's been [ __ ] 20 years, but
yeah, so there… So there you go, so, no,

what's dope about that is like in the back
of that book, they were saying that Kurt said

in the letter column that they were gonna
put out the original series as like as one

of those like those oversized like Image books
sometime in the summer I think like in May

it'll come out like you know the big hardbacks
they have for like for like the [Rick] Remender-type

stuff like I think I think he's putting out
version of that and he said he wanted to do

that because it's going to be I guess there
was like some language he wanted to fix and

stuff like that so he's gonna fix all that,
but yeah but it's like there's been but it's

like but that's a guy who's like whose work
I love and I just was like why would he not

do a non-creator book? why would he not? but
then I'm like you know the money that they

pay you if I mean Carlos Pacheco he was getting
I mean when he I mean look like he's getting

you know the top books at Marvel yeah he's
getting a top top page rate at Marvel up front

with no with no risk he doesn't have to wait
for the sales to come in six months he doesn't

have to wait like he's getting paid up FR
so I mean it's hard for you to turn that money

down I mean I mean it really really is I mean
there's one guy's read this guy was saying

that you know one of the worst addictions
in America is like the weekly paycheck, because

it's hard for you, then if you get a lot of
money from that, it's hard for you then to

want to do something for yourself, because
you get addicted to that lifestyle, and it's

like these guys you know I mean that's why
some of these you know like there's a book

I'm read I just I haven't I remember I forgot
I had a subscription for this on ComiXology

until today because they they notified me
on Amazon but it's like there's that Jon the

[Jonathan] Hickman book called DECORUM oh
yeah I read that I I tried to read the first

issue I thought it was insanely impenetrable,
and it made me angry, but I I absolutely adore

Mike Huddleston the artist I think Huddleston
is like a genius artist he's fantastic He's

fantastic some of the most phenomenal comic
art like he's just a [ __ ] extraordinary

talent and I love Mike Huddleston I've loved
his work for for like 20 some odd years I

remember him doing his early books with Phil
Hester DEEP SLEEPER and THE COFFIN and I I

thought he was just a massive talent from
the beginning so I'm I'm totally like a Huddleston

fan, and I dig Hickman too, but I I gotta
say I thought that first issue was uniquely

challenging to read but that's that's all
I've read so far well I mean yeah I mean but

I mean look I'm still maybe four or five pages
in but I look at it I'm like… This is a

guy who like who does the Marvel work right
I mean there's I mean he does the Marvel work

he's doing the X-MEN thing now that whole
relaunch of that that but when his batshit

crazy ideas come to him, he's able to take
the risk and roll and say I'm gonNA do some

[ __ ] for [ __ ] Image, like this book,
and that one book I love like EAST OF WEST

which some people thought is [ __ ] is which
is a it's like a wildly I don't say it's impenetrable

I think it's a great it's a great book you
just got to pay attention to that book that's

a great book I we've talked about this I I
[ __ ] love EAST OF WEST I think it's a

I think it's one of the most phenomenal like
modern comics of the last like 15, 20 years,

as far as like you know the stuff that's come
out of Image it's one of my very favorites

very much so very very much [Nick] Dragotta…
Dragotta is extraordinary, too, by the way,

that's right Dragotta is so [ __ ] good,
man, his character design, his storytelling,

just insanely insanely good, But yeah but
that's an example of like of a guy who's like

rolling the dice, and you know and because
he's working at Marvel, you know, I mean like

you wonder if you wonder if you know someone
like Tim Truman if he did a few more books

for Marvel, DC you know is it just, it would
fuel what he's doing on his own, you know,

and not to say that he's not making any money
—obviously he is, because he's still doing

it, still — but it's just it's interesting,
I mean, you just might get more money, because

people do follow you, like artists, like that
Pacheco thing, it's like I picked that up,

because as much as I love Kurt Busiek, I'm
like, Oh [ __ ] Pacheco,

too?! [ __ ] I didn't even know you guys were
working together, and so it's like that's

what, you know, you just get interested in
guys and/or girls, and you want to see what

they're doing next and if they're… and,
particularly for me, if they're doing non-[super]hero

[ __ ], I'm like "Oh, you're really flexing,
yes you're really flexing, now," because,

it's like, because there's no mandate, there's
no editorial [department] telling you what

you can and can't do, and… that's like …you're
just [ __ ] being unadulterated, it's your

art, and that's what I would love to see more
guys do, and you'd have more just, like, exposure.

[Music fade in]

So that's all I want to say about Tim Truman
and HAWKWORLD, I think, I don't know. This

is… This is a good read, a really really
good read. …I don't know where my original

versions of these are; I know I have them…
I want to tell you something about that…

The cover for the second one is the concrete
one, right? That's right, that's right. Yeah.

…That's such a smart cover design, because
it's kind of like he gets stripped down to

the bare bones of him, in that issue,
you know, and it's a grayed-out cover, so

it's kind of like… there's no, you know
what I'm saying, …like he's been desaturated

in life,

and like the cover kind of like conveys
that, that potency, too, you know. That's

a great point; I hadn't actually thought about
it that deeply, but now that you mention it,

yeah… that works, it's like… That's the
thing about these books, man, and I think

it brings us back to the whole premise of
why we wanted to do this podcast in the first

place, Chris, is… There are so many of these
books that are so, like, incredibly

deeply thought out by these

genuinely masterful writers and
artists from comics, largely in the '80s…

that we're talking about, here …that no
one [ __ ] talks about… I don't get it

…and it's like it's [ __ ] just nuts to
me, because, you're like, "Do you see this

work? Like do you see the work that exists?
Do you see how carefully considered… how

much intelligence and… spirit and soul is
contained in this work?!" And like, man, someone

should be remembering and [ __ ] talking
about it. Which is why we're doing this show.

Yep. So with that, everyone, go out and buy
the HAWKWORLD miniseries or trade [paperback]

on Amazon, though if there is one, we'll put
a link in the Show Notes, and you should go

buy it…

Yeah, I guess that's it for this
episode. …For this episode, but no doubt

we will we will be revisiting the Tim Truman
canon at some point in the future here on

COMICS ROT YOUR BRAIN! And that's it for this
week… We will see you next week with —

I don't even know what we're going to read
next

week so ...or next episode... so it'll be
a surprise

for us. It'll be a surprise for you. Yep.

[Music fades out]