00:00.00

cbderrick

All right Steve we're back to talk about our first true superhero book here on comics rock your brain. Um, for those who are tuning in late or new or whatever it is.

00:10.92

Steven Bagatourian

Yup.

00:18.53

cbderrick

Um, you know Steve is a writer of movies I'm a writer of movies and tv I just got off for star trek and maybe this won't air in order. It is what it is um so today we're gonna talk about.

00:32.72

Steven Bagatourian

Sisters.

00:37.15

cbderrick

Um, an elsew world book which you know from the the title episode. It's the golden age by eat. Yeah by James Robinson Paul smith Richard Ory and John Costanza um you know it's interesting about this book I just want to say off like off the.

00:41.49

Steven Bagatourian

Oh yeah, it's in else Worlds I forgot about that else worlds.

00:56.25

cbderrick

I've talked to people about this book and a lot of people who work in the industry that um have said this book should be canon. You know this book should be like the thing that like um, whatever that that bridges.

01:05.61

Steven Bagatourian

Earth.

01:15.14

cbderrick

You know from the golden age to the Silver Aids Heroes like it shouldn't be this. It shouldn't be an else world. Um, and I think it's fascinating that a lot people think that because it's so good and I think that. A lot of people don't talk about this book in the same breath as watchmen. But I think it's as good or better than watchmen.

01:36.30

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, no, you said that to me kind of in anticipation for this episode and that kind of blew my mind when you said that but like it did make me even more curious to revisit the story because I honestly didn't remember the golden age that well um I had bought it when it came out. And I think I had bought it largely for the Paul Smith art but I think that the story probably for me at the time when it first came out might have been just a little I don't know a little political or like a little dry for me at the time and so I think I didn't fully appreciate this when it came out so I'm really glad that you wanted to look at this again. Because I actually enjoyed the hell out of this reading it now and along with watchmen I think the book that it really calls to mind for me also is Darwin Cook's new frontier and I think it's just oh, you haven't read new frontier. Oh shit we gotta we gotta talk about that on the show sometime. Yeah cause.

02:26.90

cbderrick

Um, was I but read.

02:34.50

Steven Bagatourian

New Frontiers like very much kind of in a retro vein dealing with a lot of these like not the not all the exact same Heroes but it's got a lot of similar sort of vibes to it in a certain way. But um I think Golden Golden Age Predates New Frontier though.

02:48.37

cbderrick

It's is yeah and a new frontier I think is a Silver Race character is that because I remember seeing it. It has like a wonderful minute and stuff like that and I think and it's got the Barry Allen Flash I believe I don't quite remember. But.

02:52.78

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

03:02.47

cbderrick

I mean look I like I was thinking about this. This is why I like this book more than watchmen is that in terms of what this is why I think but I brought up about why people think it should be canon is that it is the characters are characters. We know.

03:19.20

Steven Bagatourian

Who first.

03:21.22

cbderrick

You know to a degree whereas you look at Watchmen and it's like those characters don't have any kind of um, there's no legacy to them. There's all new now. Granted they're they're kind of like those repurposed versions of those like of of those yeah chocolate heroes.

03:31.25

Steven Bagatourian

Right? The Charlton characters.

03:39.46

cbderrick

But they're not those charged heroes and and this is those this is all those people that we know of that you know like before before I mean the the alice Scott Green Lantern the Jay Garrick flash the Carter Hall like like we know them.

03:49.61

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah.

03:55.29

cbderrick

And we don't I mean and even as a kid even though when you're reading this. We don't know these were silver raised books so we don't see their adventures but I remember as a kid like seeing little like books and stuff about comics and these people were in them. You know? yeah, All-sar Squadron and and other stuff.

04:08.43

Steven Bagatourian

Um, oh totally. Oh yeah, like All-star Squadron yeah.

04:14.84

cbderrick

And I feel but not if I ripped but I just remember seeing them on covers and seeing like little little like maybe even like Encyclopedia articles about how stuff like that. So these characters have like there's a cultural weight to these characters that that you don't have in watchmen and also because the villain in this.

04:24.85

Steven Bagatourian

Yes.

04:33.24

cbderrick

Is a villain that's part of cannon where the villain and Watchman is just like dead monster that Alien creature coming. That's got no kind of relevance to anything Well okay, him too. But again, but he's got no, he's got no weight to it. You know, um and the fact that.

04:38.89

Steven Bagatourian

Or or or it's aszi Azzie mandius or dependent depending how you look at it.

04:48.57

Steven Bagatourian

Sure yeah.

04:52.82

cbderrick

But you know for those who haven't read. We'll get into this so golden age takes place just after war war ii and the first issue is interesting. The whole thing is narrated by Johnny Quick and Johnny Quick is kind of one of these speedster characters from the.

05:05.17

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yep.

05:12.13

cbderrick

30 s the 40 s and he has like a he's got like a a formula. He says to give him his speed or something like that right.

05:16.19

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah I think that's right and that's not to be confused with our man who takes like a miraculo Miraculo pill. Yeah, and like all these characters for the most part were familiar to me and would be familiar to anybody out there who did read.

05:21.80

cbderrick

Takes to take together pill.

05:34.13

Steven Bagatourian

Ah, Roy Thomas ' all-star squadron because so many of these characters Johnny Quick Liberty Bell the tarantula um, just virtually all of them were you know the major players star man they were the major players in all-star squadron which actually was one of the first comics I read as a kid. So so. Come to think of it I don't know why golden age didn't appeal to me more when I was younger because I I was I was all about all-star squadron so anyways, I don't know why that.

05:57.48

cbderrick

But no, but but but here's the thing though because it's a book that's about look so the it comes in after war war two and Johnny Quick's making a documentary about mystery men and it's basically like trying to explain what happened to the mystery men during world war 2

06:07.62

Steven Bagatourian

Yes.

06:16.66

cbderrick

Because because what and they kind of make this thing they make this leap of fate of leap of a twist in the narrative of saying there's a reason why these mystery men didn't go and stop hitler and that's part of like the the documentary that he's making and he's and he and he reveals that.

06:26.10

Steven Bagatourian

Oh yes, yes.

06:35.59

cbderrick

There was this guy named like pars of all or first of all who was a nazi who had the ability. He's kind of like um, is there Marvel character was like this who snap your too good to take away your power like he takes what you kind of like rogue.

06:36.40

Steven Bagatourian

Auto Oh oh Pars a parcival Pars of all. Yeah.

06:48.48

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, rogue.

06:52.90

cbderrick

But but but but but but if he he he gets in part if he gets in proximity of you then he takes away your powers you know and that's why he was a nazi and that's why you know the the the and Roosevelt and Truman kept it quiet and and kind of made it because they were like well if we sent one of these heroes over there.

06:57.81

Steven Bagatourian

Yes.

07:11.86

cbderrick

And they got killed. It would totally fuck up armore and it's is it interesting way that he's playing this because this is James Robinson he's playing this in a way I this is why I think that maybe didn't appeal to use a child because this asking you to kind of like under so understand.

07:13.68

Steven Bagatourian

Yep, exactly.

07:30.29

cbderrick

Why the Heroes couldn't be Heroes and it.

07:30.60

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, that's a good point man. It's a very nuanced and like interesting angle that Robinson takes here.

07:36.37

cbderrick

Yeah, and I just I look at it and I'm like meaning it now I'm like this is cool because when those comics I mean look like we know from cavalwere and clay the book. The shabo book and we know from just others of about like the history of comics. It was so many jewish creators who creating these. Creating these heroes in response to what was going on in Germany and it was like oh which and tend to be like some morale booster but Robinson is trying to say and you know there's Captain America's fighting the germans and stuff like that and everything like that in those captain but he shown to say. Why didn't all these characters greenlandns around and you know, but they call the big guy but the group I you like what? why like why couldn't they stop the war and he trying to envision like what these characters actually existed and and what would that be about. I think that's is a smart way in to tell this story and these heroes so you pick it up in the late 40 s and the heroes are kind of like because we couldn't fight the war. What's our real value and that's where he kind of like. And that's what that's what Johnny Quick is asking in his documentary. What he's trying to finish and it's funny because he talks about like I got the all this work guy I do all his work on it and he was like look if I was Johnny quick I could solve this like and you know oh yeah, like yeah.

08:56.50

Steven Bagatourian

I Love that I Love that moment right? like I Just like he's got the little fantasy of himself like getting the movie done really in like a second. Yeah.

09:03.66

cbderrick

Yeah, real fast and it's and it's like he won't even do that and and then and and then it just kind of like a flash to all these other characters like you said there's like Liberty Bell and the Taranta and Johnny Quigg was married to Liberty Bell but they got divorced. And it's just and and and and he lives they now like in Arizona or something like that latrono New Mexico and it's just like this great thing about like what happened to the people and and then what's his name like star man like Ted Knight was like he is cool out to ago he was involved in like the los alamos project and.

09:21.32

Steven Bagatourian

I think New Mexico New Mexico yeah

09:38.61

cbderrick

Einstein helped him kind of like ah create the star rod you know and you like and again it's the way he kind of intermixes like what's real and what's comic book stuff to make it feel like well if they were really existing what would it be like and he's like suffering the guilt from like.

09:41.40

Steven Bagatourian

So yeah.

09:55.91

cbderrick

Creating the Atomic Bomb like it's so fascinating the Wiki kind of like spins. All the characters out to like they couldn't deal with the real world stakes and and if you think about what what they were doing. You know the the Heroes of those times the comics of those times and their villains their villains weren'

10:03.18

Steven Bagatourian

Right.

10:15.20

cbderrick

We're doing not the kind of shit they start doing in like the silver age. They're like threatening the planet or threatening the galaxy they're just like they're there regular rock like they're Batman type villains and do what be like we're just going to be doing robberies for ourselves and like and look at it like all the heroes. Like all their powers are kind of geared down to fit the stakes of what can happen. You know, like like if you think about it because it's Superman's not in this neither is Batman but you have no aquaman. You've got no like ah um, not no red tornado. You know there's there's no green I mean like the there's a level of like what could really threaten them well like in terms of the silver rights type of characters and they all so. It's interesting the way they're even just constructed and but they all realize they don't have value anymore which I think is a fascinating take on.

10:59.57

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah, um.

11:12.60

cbderrick

What would it be like to be a mystery man and that's what this is like a really cool story and and then there's 1 guy who survived came back from the war. It's guy named Tex Thompson who was kind of like a fucking nobody and he's come back and he has his back is this sort of like cover story about.

11:17.88

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah, yeah, um.

11:30.54

cbderrick

He went and was like fighting is an undercover ss guy and doing stuff and killing people and he's back and he's the now big star and the government is making him ah and they're making him they're giving him that tiga tape parade and like oh my god here's the new direction of heroes coming out of the war. And he's saying mystery men need to unmask themselves and which is interesting because I feel like Brad Bird kind of borrowed some of this for the the invincibles was the the incredibles you know like it's a similar kind of thing like a you can't be a hero anymore.

12:01.18

Steven Bagatourian

And the incredibles.

12:09.74

cbderrick

And I I love it that you like what do you do when you've defined yourself by this external personality and you can't really do it anymore and they all kind of like you know, like like like like tyranno was alcoholic and Liberty Bell is like. This likes submissive wife who doesn't like it and I forget the guy who plays what's the guy's name. It plays. Ah ah our man but he but it ah but our man has got. He's got a tolerance to his pill I'm like god this is so dope like all of it is so dopely constructed as a story.

12:38.65

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah.

12:44.52

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, and also oh you're going to say yes, oh no, no sorry sorry I just want to make sure you touch on green lantern also Alan Scott

12:46.66

cbderrick

And the coolest story that I remember where he went. Oh yeah, yeah, ah so yes, and so Alan Scott he's given up the ring. He keeps it in a safe or no, he's wearing it at first but never uses it and he needs he runs like a big like radio conglomerate.

13:00.53

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah.

13:06.51

cbderrick

He feels like he might be like what's the guy's name said Henry Luce the guy created time and in the and life magazine like that I yeah yeah, he's the mogul and it's like this this he's like this is more powerful than the ring like my ability to reach people through.

13:11.84

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah, he's like a huge. He's a mogul like that.

13:21.31

Steven Bagatourian

And he employs he employs tons of people. He employs like a ton of writers and yeah for radio and and they're facing pressure. What's what's this from the ah house committee on un-american activities and you got all this kind of like mccarthyite communism sort of witch hunt stuff.

13:26.39

cbderrick

Yeah for radio.

13:41.35

Steven Bagatourian

Ramping up and Alan Scott is ah you know it says here in the story. He's feeling his shoulders ache as if the weight of the world was on them and you know and this is not from being a superhero. It's from now being like a regular person who just has all this pressure on him and you know and he. Talks with Johnny Quick in a really melancholy way about just why he's not a superhero anymore and and he says do you realize the power I have I could level cities. Um the atom bomb. You saw what it did the lives lost the ash in bodies a fraction of my power a fraction.

14:17.49

cbderrick

Yeah, the ring with the ring and.

14:17.93

Steven Bagatourian

He's talking about the power he had as Green lantern. Yeah yeah, who decided the bomb should be dropped men What right? What right did they have to unleash such devastation on the World. We won the war. Yes, but who's to say we we were morally right? I have power far greater than the Bomb. What moral right? do I have to it. What if I erred one day and the City died I Wield Power Beyond imagination I'm married to that power by a ring of green I Want a divorce and it's amazing. Yeah.

14:46.96

cbderrick

It's it's fantastic because because again it's the level of like the impotence of the war and that they couldn't do anything and you're like oh yeah, if he had the ring. He could have stopped imperial Japan he could done all this shit you know and didn't happen. And it's very and it's just it's this level of like it's interesting too because when this is book's coming out and like it was at 93 or something like that 9023 it's when America is kind of in a weird place when it doesn't feel as strong as it used to be out of the 80 s. And we're and we're starting the age of exporting all of our jobs and this level of like okay, what can we do like what's you know, like the cold war is over and it's like what's our value again like what's our value as a society That's why this book is so interesting. Good ah, all those telling a story in the past.

15:22.70

Steven Bagatourian

What.

15:30.29

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah.

15:37.89

cbderrick

The last great moment of like of like geopolitical upheaval is is is is this crisis point in 46 and it's just it's this. It's it's really I mean the story that I remember the most love the most is the Paul Kirk story because Paul Kirk please man hunter

15:53.10

Steven Bagatourian

Um, oh man hunter.

15:57.68

cbderrick

He comes back to the states with no memory of anything and he's being hunted and the way that Paul Smith who's the artist on this draw draws. All of those little this. Ah there's like there's a raw power of like the paranoia and the energy. He's got. He's got to escape in doing stuff the way he draws that. Is fucking phenomenal I remember that there's what I think episode 3 maybe 2 issue 2 or 3 where there's like that he's in the car and or that truck and it goes off the the road and it's like goes into the ice. It's like the angle he chose when you're down looking at that car I was like god damn you're like that's such a.

16:16.99

Steven Bagatourian

But yeah.

16:28.23

Steven Bagatourian

Like yes, so.

16:35.48

cbderrick

Like the it's just a simple silhouette with the way he framed it I was like fuck dude like how are you doing this. It's so as a thing too is like yeah they right there? Yeah fucking it' amazing. It's fucking amazing because there's this weird angle this like that the car feels like it's ah it and but if the car feels like it's going to spin.

16:42.27

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's really odd. It's really odd.

16:55.26

cbderrick

You know, like not just move off but like roll. But it's yeah like Paul Smith is so dope in this series this these is the first big thing that I've seen him do post this x-men run um at the time because I didn't read his nexus work until wait till so after this. Um, and I just and his styles a little different than his xmen stuff but he still has a there's a there's a cleanness to his line work and his compositions that is ah it's only surpassed by Steve Rood I think you know and I think Steve Rood like like could have done this book too if he was maybe like mentally healthy um or or you know because we've talked about how he said mental problems. That's no secret. But um, you know I don't know so so that's kind of the first issue of this. You know and it it I mean it ends what has it and it is with it ends with the stuff it. It. Yeah, the the Paul the man hunter thing is when he's but being chased and you meet what's his name Ted Knight and he's in that. Ah um, ah, insane asylum and.

18:03.89

Steven Bagatourian

He's yeah, he's in an asylum. Yeah.

18:06.56

cbderrick

Yeah, um, he's like having trouble. Ah, but oh oh in what's his name. The Adam guy goes to try to like show up and deal with text Thompson and he's like no we can't help you because because your body's already been infected by some sort of radiation and.

18:19.98

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, the old like the the golden age Adam um, and that's a T O M he he wants to be like this government engineered superhero that ah Tex Thompson is ah saying that he wants to create.

18:25.41

cbderrick

Yeah.

18:37.18

Steven Bagatourian

And this is part of Tex Thompson's political campaign and the Adam volunteers but gets turned down after they run tests on him.

18:42.51

cbderrick

Yeah, because like ah we can't use your body. Um I mean but those scientists say that in secret and the last thing that happens is he goes and meets this guy named Daniel Dumbbar who is he was he was related. He's so he was like.

18:52.60

Steven Bagatourian

Yes.

18:59.22

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, it was like dynamite or T N T N T and dynam man or something like that. Yeah.

19:00.40

cbderrick

Kids' sidekick of like someone named t and t and he was like like what his name is like ah yeah, year or Dinah boy or some shit like that or dinah kid and textx Thompson so see's like hey you know what kid american needs you. Cause he's getting kicked out of like Yale or some shit like that and it's like oh he can't even like oh Princeton you get out of Princeton and it's just like an interesting kind of like ah um, like like close out where you where you where where we met all the players pretty much they're all kind of like despondent and just don't want to be doing what they're doing.

19:34.80

Steven Bagatourian

Like super super melancholy I mean that that is 1 thing that reminds me watchmen. It's it's very watchmen esque in the sense that it really is like you know this kind of broken down sad poignant like morning after when like all the superheroing.

19:37.21

cbderrick

You know? and so melancholy.

19:53.86

Steven Bagatourian

Has been done and it's the next decade and everyone's just like picking up the pieces of their fucked up life and yeah, like it's ah it's an incredibly despondent sort of air that hangs over this whole book.

20:06.20

cbderrick

Yeah I mean like yeah, it's I mean like like like the the narration in it is all done like I said by Johnny Quickman he has this kind of tone of like you know, like like you say like despair and it's it's almost like this this level of like. Ah, it's not regret, but it's like I wish we could have been good. Still you know like like it's like I I melt I don't know I don't know what the right word is but it's a sense of like we didn't live up to our potential and that's why we're fuckups now.

20:29.67

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah, what.

20:38.28

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah.

20:43.52

cbderrick

And and we're all suffering from it in a way that that we can't really ah articulate as people because it we mean because it means we have to reveal like little you know, like who we were or these mystery men you know? um so that leads us to.

20:57.43

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

21:02.25

cbderrick

To to episode or issue two 2 out of 4 thing I love about this is is that inside cover is like the nuclear bomb and shit boing up. You know I think that's fucking like dope. Um.

21:09.77

Steven Bagatourian

Um, ah, yeah yeah I oh wow yeah that's right, that's right and I guess that's another I mean there are a lot of parallels between this book and watchmen but you've got you know and it is. It's also just part partly the time that these books are dealing with you know times where like. The nuclear age and the nuclear sort of threat loomd. So large as I guess as we record this today in March of 2022. Ah, you know we're we're suddenly in it in a moment in the world where suddenly the idea of nuclear war once again is a thing. And that that was something I was thinking just reading this book in the last week because like you know the last couple weeks have been the first time in in my lifetime that I can remember actually worrying about nuclear war as an adult so it was ah it was a strange time to be reading this book actually come to think of it.

22:01.70

cbderrick

No, you're right as I can't think of anytime. The only time I remember there was like like a fear of nuclear weapons in my lifetime was when that movie the day after came on.

22:16.46

Steven Bagatourian

Um.

22:19.75

cbderrick

You know, which kind of showed us what would happen if there was a nuclear holocaust and it was and like what it would be like and it was like everyone was like what the fuck this is what we're is what we're playing with with this is what you know because I think a lot of people.

22:28.53

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

22:34.86

cbderrick

These for me as a kid like they weren't I mean like we saw like we've seen that we've seen the mushroom cloud right? We've seen that that's really stamped into our our ah our psyche but we don't see a lot of footage or see the of Nagasaki hiroshima like that like like like what that will look like like. You know? and and ah you know like you know like ten days later a hundred days later you know three years later we don't know what this to and right now those I mean but by the time that we're alive and aware of this stuff as kids those cities have been rebuilt. You know, but they always would say to you right now our nuclear currencies a hundred times that they dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima or whatever the fuck it is these these these exponentially larger bomb things you just and you just kind of like it's kind of unfathomable until that movie that movie came out and we saw what it was like. But that's where this is kind of like picks up, you're right? It's an interesting period in our time and now in this book. You're like ah I don't know he's mean those russians are just shooting at the fucking the nuclear the nuclear I was telling my birthday of the day. It's like you know, ah Putin can be like it doesn't matter if we if we cause a a nuclear.

23:33.74

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

23:48.78

cbderrick

Meltdown in in Ukraine because we did it before in Chernobyl just up the road and we survived so you know it's it's like he might have this mindset of like ah russians can survive a nuclear event you know and the and the rest of the world's like yeah, but not us we don't want that shit.

23:59.65

Steven Bagatourian

FS.

24:06.87

cbderrick

And ah, ah so but anyway so back to issue 2 of the golden age it begins with Tex Thompson is on his campaign trail. He's trying to be senator. He's brought together the team of of Rex no rex towers that is the other guy. It's as.

24:08.43

Steven Bagatourian

Ah, oh.

24:25.76

cbderrick

It's what's his name. Pratt it's it's Al Pratt is the Adam the court guy is is al prat to Adam there's a robot man who we got and he's got you know like Daniel dumpy. These are the people that he says are going to be like the next like the next brave americans and these are the ones who are going to like help with his.

24:25.79

Steven Bagatourian

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, Pratt yeah Prat yup.

24:38.62

Steven Bagatourian

Yes, you know.

24:42.95

cbderrick

His plan to kind of to make America great again I think does he say that somewhere like I think he even says that somewhere. Yeah I mean I mean like he's pushing that level of like a weird fucking jingoism that is like and that he could do it because he's a work hero you know and then this story begin. The role about how everyone is feeling uncomfortable.

24:46.74

Steven Bagatourian

He might as he might as well. Yeah.

24:53.64

Steven Bagatourian

Who.

25:02.78

cbderrick

But what's happening and should we turn ourselves in and and and what's this about and then there's a little moment where Alan Scotts hears about um, a fight down in the lobby where one of his old yeah robberies old nemesis. The sports master that his name sports master.

25:13.96

Steven Bagatourian

A robbery.

25:20.40

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, it's it's it's it Ridiculous yeah that you're the villain's name is Sports master. Yeah.

25:22.95

cbderrick

Sports master. Yes, yeah I mean and and the thing is look it goes back that was saying before about like the level of threat that the villains pose but but but the thing about it is sports master carries a wooden bat and the thing about Alan Scott's green lantern as opposed to.

25:35.37

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, no.

25:41.14

cbderrick

The green lantern we know with like ah what's his name right? The current one is his weaknesses wood not yellow. So for yeah, yeah, so it's interesting to think Gary's that back because he's like you know what? this will help me like fight the green lantern.

25:45.95

Steven Bagatourian

Oh is that true. Oh shit I I didn't even realize that oh my God Wow Wow. Okay, and here here I here I was thinking that the sports master was a pretty pathetic villain because it's a dude in like a red jacket and a. Baseball Bat with like a black cloth mask I mean I was just kind of thinking like yo. This dude is no doctor Doom. You know he is not's no, He's no Rod skull. But.

26:09.54

cbderrick

No, you know he's not no, he's not no, he's I mean that's that's the thing It's like again like it's just interesting I mean we and you say to yourself to to to. He's a green lantern. He's talking about this weight of the world on a shorter but but you know what with your weaknesses would and that and there's so much wood available.

26:25.33

Steven Bagatourian

Um.

26:29.38

cbderrick

Because like this later on issue 4 like ah, what's his name. Ah yeah, he's attacked he sit but he sit with a tree you know when it takes him out of the fight. You know I was like oh yeah because the wood is fucking with him. Um, you know, but it's interesting. You know, but but the thing is is ah is that Scott.

26:35.17

Steven Bagatourian

Um, you write right.

26:45.75

cbderrick

He doesn't even have the rings goes I'm go fight this guy and he knows who he is and he gets shot doesn't get killed but he gets shot and but he beats the sports master or is a sports master escapes actually with this money and but the cool thing about it is but I love is Sports Masters fucking.

26:57.42

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, what.

27:04.88

cbderrick

Um, motivation like you like you get inside his head and it's like you know like he's married and his wife left him and took his daughter. He's he trying to be ah, a thief just to get his daughter back. So he's kind of humanized him in a way that makes it like all the villains.

27:05.57

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

27:11.71

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah, yeah.

27:23.50

cbderrick

It's just kind of like makes everybody feel more real as opposed to the archfes that we knew yeah because if you you read these older comics like this and ah, it's kind of the knock on like on on a bunch of Dc stuff particularly in the goes and the silver rays is the heroes their they're heroes. And their alter egos are like sketches. They're not really people you know and by giving this guy this backstory and this motivation you kind of like get a like it's it's like you get into his head in a way that you wouldn't when these comics are being published. You know I think it's cool.

27:46.63

Steven Bagatourian

Sure.

27:58.79

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah, absolutely and and also when Alan Scott gets shot if you notice at the end of that page. It's a really interesting kind of conclusion to that sequence because not only does Alan Scott get shot. But so does a security guard who's there.

28:01.51

cbderrick

I Think it's really be cool.

28:15.70

cbderrick

Um, yeah.

28:18.23

Steven Bagatourian

Trying to help stop sportsmaster also and sports masterster takes off and says you you bastard you cost me stacey damn you and then he takes off and so sportsmaster like you say Chris not upset that like you know the stuff he was trying to steal. Has been taken away from him. He's upset that Alan Scott has cost him the opportunity to get his woman back and get his family back which is you know it's very very telling but then Alan Scott looks at the security guard who's been shot and Alan Scott says arms on fire hey buddy you all right? You? okay.

28:40.92

cbderrick

Yeah, yeah.

28:55.78

Steven Bagatourian

Security guards all fucked up and he's yelling and he says I failed failed I screwed screwed it and then Alan Scott says whoa relax. We're only human and then it's a weird panel because Alan Scott is smiling.

29:05.62

cbderrick

Yeah.

29:11.17

Steven Bagatourian

Like he's like got a soft smile on his face while he's holding his bullet wound and meanwhile the the security guard has his head in his hands and it's like weep weeping. So yeah.

29:20.12

cbderrick

Will be a but but but you know I because I as I it's funny, but but it kind of goes to what happens like later on in this is that with Captain Triumph is that Scott is like I did this without the ring. I have value as a human by just being a human I don't need to exercise it with the power of the ring and the the the security guard who's never never wheeled the ring of power. He's broken because I I can't it's it's it's just a great kind of like.

29:48.57

Steven Bagatourian

Yes, yeah.

29:54.60

cbderrick

You know it's It's like his understanding of his own like his own reality and mortality is what allows him to feel a substance of of joy in getting shot.

30:02.47

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah, you're right you're right I think that's a very astute analysis of it and it's it's like quite subtle writing here you know, but if if you do kind of look at this and the the layers of Alan Scott's personality. Yeah I think it's exactly what you say Chris like. He's feeling alive and just kind of you know more I don't know more human in this moment because of the fact that he's ah he's tasted a piece of just his own mortality. He's he's realized like shit I almost died and. I'm not this omnipotent godlike being anymore and it has more value to him like what he's doing now.

30:42.75

cbderrick

For for sure for sure you know the next story point is Tex Thompson he they dropped this nuclear bomb on you know like Daniel Dumbbar or they explode one near him and they and it's all because they're trying to figure out because they're trying to imbue him with the powers.

30:53.63

Steven Bagatourian

Which is so crazy. Yeah.

31:02.53

cbderrick

And do the little like the switch they're doing like the whole kind of like the like the true mastermind plan like of this book you know? Um, yeah.

31:08.83

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, the coloring the coloring is wild too just on the page where they're doing the test and like you see the the doctors and everyone else wearing the sunglasses and the color goes all white. Yeah yeah.

31:22.93

cbderrick

It's so because it's so bright. Yeah I mean you know like I um, you know here's the thing it's like I think I was telling this before offline but it's like you know like I was having a dispute with a friend of mine about how you know what's his name. Ah Richard Ory colored this because if you look at it now you.

31:36.75

Steven Bagatourian

Oh yeah, that's right? Yeah I'm glad you're I'm glad you're saying this actually on the show.

31:39.70

cbderrick

Yeah, yeah, you look at it now in like in 2020 and you might assume this book is computer colored there. There's so much nuance and so much like gradation and detail and and and and and color transitions and all this kind of stuff. And my buddy who's a computer graphic guy and designs car. So like niss honest shit like that was saying to me. There's no way this book was not computer colored and I was like I don't know they knew how to computer color to this degree back in 92 I remember when computer car first came out and it wasn't. People like went overboard with it all the time they didn't know how to like do the this this book is so subtle without color and so I reached out to Richard Ore on Facebook said hey dude can you explain to me how you colored this book like what was this and he was like it's like watercolor and gue.

32:20.90

Steven Bagatourian

Yep.

32:35.66

cbderrick

And like color pencil and like prisma color shit and I was like this and it's I was like this is all hand done all and it's kind of amazing because like just you look at a white deal like it's all white and not 1 thing but the pen up below that where where it's blown. It's so good.

32:37.17

Steven Bagatourian

Um, Wow. Wow. This is this is beautiful. This is so Beautiful. Yes.

32:53.92

cbderrick

It's shocking or good. It's It's one of the things but this book that makes it ah such enjoyable read is like the coloring is amazing. It's it's amazing.

32:58.30

Steven Bagatourian

Oh it just it's just gorgeous man like page after page. Oh man if Richard Orie if he didn't get nominated or win an eisner for best colorist this year like that would be a crime because this is this is a stunning looking book and it's.

33:11.45

cbderrick

Yeah, a complete one a complete one.

33:17.36

Steven Bagatourian

It's a huge part of the artwork and you know you talked about Paul Smith a little bit but you know we've we've touched on Paul Smith only very lightly on this episode considering you know how incredible this book looks but it really is ah a collaboration with Richard Ori because I think that. Paul Smith's art is phenomenal, but the coloring really works hand in glove to really just elevate the art to another level. Yeah because you can see like the subtlety of like the colored pencils and just just all of these moments like the individual pages in the palettes are so carefully beautifully chosen.

33:38.97

cbderrick

How El you are elevated completely If not.

33:54.55

Steven Bagatourian

This is yeah, it's a it's a rare treat in terms of the color here. But it's just the art completely across the board here. It's just it's a master class in comic art. It's just it's a beautiful stunning book.

34:03.87

cbderrick

oh yeah oh fuck yeah I mean I mean with I mean like like ah yeah, like you were showing me those panels when they're in that diner with um, ah with may hunter later on and it's like the way he does the night in this little chase scene on the cards like.

34:10.54

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

34:16.21

Steven Bagatourian

That this.

34:20.17

cbderrick

Like he uses so many different colors of blues and Indigos and purples to you know to? so just you it it feels night but it's but you see all the detail and it's like God damn dude and it's that snowy and it's just like it's so like what the fuck man. It's so I mean this scene where he's like.

34:31.36

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, so.

34:38.38

cbderrick

The ah um, just shooting at him in the car and it's like that that the gun fires at the driver and it's like there's that pop of red and or it's just like damn do like it's so well conceived and I can't and you look at it now you like he did all by hand he lift it all this by hand.

34:49.90

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah, it's it's stunning. It's really stunning and I'm and I'm just looking at like page after page here. It's just you could frame any page but like Paul Smith's art is so so just beautiful and unique. But like. Who are the influences where does Paul Smith come from like when I look at Paul Smith's work at least on this book. It feels like it's kind of like the weird love child somewhere between Norman Rockwell and Alex Toth like it feels like.

35:20.69

cbderrick

People. Yes, you.

35:23.13

Steven Bagatourian

You've got this americana vibe deeply baked into it. But there's this simplicity of the line work and just ah, an incredible just articulation of movement and storytelling that is very very much reminds me of someone like Alex Toth it's just it's an amazing combination though. And for me this is I think. Maybe like I don't know this might be peak Paul Smith for me along with the x-men and Dr Strange and some of that early Marvel stuff like for me Paul Smith on Dr Strange x -men and now this this might be peak paul smith because I think when he switches to the leave it to chance style which is fine. But for me that he kind of loses me a little bit and I think oh by the way come to think of it that's also with james robinson so they they had quite the collaboration here so they went on to do leave it to chance for many many issues after this and but paul smith switches up his style for that book to more of kind of like.

36:06.96

cbderrick

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

36:20.49

Steven Bagatourian

What I think of is like the YA Paul Smith style where it's like him drawing kind of like you know an actionadventure book. Ah you know with with the young woman protagonist and like it feels like he's drawing that very purposely in a style that's more like you know Tintin meets you know something.

36:21.63

cbderrick

Right? ah.

36:36.21

cbderrick

Um, ah yeah for sure for sure.

36:38.92

Steven Bagatourian

Like it's an action adventure book for kids almost and and that and it's fine for what it is but for me like that. That's not the pulse myth that I love and I think this golden age This is like where I look at it and I'm just like Wow Comics comics. Don't get much better than this.

36:50.71

cbderrick

No I think you made a great point where you like if the influence is like the the number rockwell because what's cool about this book is you know, although this is a superhero book. They're not in their superhero. Costumes. Until the fourth issue and they're in like America in like nights and who's the what's that 1 guy ah Edward hopper like it feel like the art like he's he's doing like just regular america americana in the cities or or at like a college or whatever is this. Feel like the lees falling down at some of these pages you're like dude like this is like yeah it's it's so it's unique for a comic book for a super com book to to be so devoid of superior imagery but he's still is iconic. It. It's but it still feels iconic and like wow what are you doing.

37:42.95

Steven Bagatourian

Yes, yeah, yeah, there's a lot of iconic moments. You're right dude like just that's like it's like atmospheric iconic moments. It's like yeah like a moment where somebody just like throws their jacket and walks away and you see it in Silhouette you know or like just.

37:49.63

cbderrick

You know.

37:59.60

cbderrick

Yeah, or is that.

38:02.69

Steven Bagatourian

Just like these little moments where I think there's ah when Johnny quick comes to visit Alan Scott at his office. There's one panel where like it goes to silhouette for just one panel and like like Paul Smith is finding all these like you're you're right? just these oddly iconic moments. Um, that are just sort of like in the mundane.

38:10.40

cbderrick

1 yeah, like.

38:22.12

Steven Bagatourian

Everyday world. But he's figuring out a way to frame it a way to show it or even that car going off the bridge. It's like he's making choices that are so unique and odd that things do really look like you've never seen them before because you could you could give that script with the car going off the bridge. To a thousand different comic artists and not a single one of them would choose that angle for the car because it's so it's so yes.

38:43.73

cbderrick

No no because this is weird angle. It's this weird angle that like I I mean I mean um, ah, you know what? we we'll put that shot in the show notes because it's so fucking. Amazing! Um, yeah, yeah, it's just yeah I mean. You know I I this again. So like the rest of the story like it sort throws out. They've they've they've blown up Dunbar. He comes back as this guy the dynnaman and there's this shot of the next you know like the next like when he's there like the the. Arena getting talked about and it's like you meet all the people in the crowd and the scream and we go tomorrow was ours and it's like again, it's just regular people but it feel I almost was like a orson wells kind of like like a magnificent amerson's type of shot where it's like just showing you regular people in a weird angle.

39:31.86

Steven Bagatourian

Um.

39:36.41

cbderrick

That's like ho okay I'm but it's you know like it's jampacked. But it's not crowded, but you feel like the level of like intensity of what's going on but this next page then it's like you know when ah the guy who's kept in triumph he meets that girl and he's kind of begins to fall for her now. Now I don't know who Captain Triumph is I never heard of this character before but you get a sense of what his he's about is like these 2 twins and 1 is dead and if they there's a little birth market if he touches the birthmark they are. It's almost like um Captain Marvel you know when like when Rick Jones and him had to switch places and stuff like that. It's almost like that and it's like but when they touch the thing they become super powerful. Um they they have some sort of power some sort of probably strength and speed of like 2 or 3 minutes or something like that then the next cool part is. Our man. It's it's it's fucking. It's it's Rex Tyler he's been trying that he's he's trying to figure out the pill to go back to being his strength for an hour and was really dove about this and this is what I love about this and it goes back to the themes about what's. Your value as a superhero. What's your right? as a man. What's your worth because your identity when he starts taking the pill when he's fighting these people. He's great but is that one moment of fear that he gets and all of a sudden. He's having these wild as hallucinations and shit and I think that's just like.

41:04.17

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yes.

41:07.88

cbderrick

Because because he's not felt fear like this and the new pill does submit his body chemistry where he goes and he literally goes insane for I I mean I mean he's even know and it's just great. Yeah yeah, this yeah this 2 panel spread he and me like this.

41:17.98

Steven Bagatourian

Um, that that is that That's an amazing spread. Yeah.

41:25.71

cbderrick

His eyes exploding in a weird way, but it's not and it's like ah that's the bottom. There's all those pills like he's just it's just like it's just the hallucination is so dope. It's so dope you know and he comes back. He's like I know I am I'm an addict and I'm not an addict for.

41:33.79

Steven Bagatourian

Yes.

41:39.71

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

41:43.45

cbderrick

Think he's not just with the pill but he's addict for the adventure that the pill gives him and that's what he knows is like I don't know how to solve this and again it's like you know like ah he can't be what he wants to be and and you know it's a smart level of storytelling of cut. Again, he's kind of like he's deconstructing the heroes the way that Alan Moore does but in a way that is more I don't want to say pathetic this the wrong word, but it's you know because it's the guy's name. Ol man like al man doesn't want to have that power in in watchmen you know and he meets with rorschach and Greek I think I don't want do this kind of stuff and there's nobody who like wants it still and can't take it because of the pill I mean the thing with the pill was such a really.

42:21.62

Steven Bagatourian

Or nighten it out night. O.

42:34.63

cbderrick

So So so interesting to push on and it kind of touches on like addiction for us as humans our own addictions our own demons. But but to be a hero is addicting and you know that all these other people are like they had to go cold turkey and they weren't cool with it. They did none of them were cool with it and it kind of affected their their so psyche you know, like all these people are like in trouble because they can't be who they want to be um and they were yeah where are we next or with Tickt top text tops and again trying to get the miracle the Ma the mystery meant to unmask themselves.

42:59.79

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah.

43:11.60

cbderrick

He's got some woman to unmask herself who's kind of what the the the the the tigris you know is that the Tigerris it's not the same feels like a wonder woman villain, but it's not that's cheetah that's chetah. Um.

43:16.44

Steven Bagatourian

Right.

43:23.85

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, and then there's also ah the Marvel character tigra.

43:31.80

cbderrick

Tigra. Yeah, and then there's another Paul Smith and and there is another paul kirk story or or or we go back into the dip back into the Paul Kirk the man hunter kind of like ah um, what you call. Ah this part of the thing. And he had a hallucination earlier where his seventy s dreamed.

43:46.45

Steven Bagatourian

Oh yeah, speaking of psychedelic like all these manhunter sequences are very psychedelic. Also I want to call out the interesting use of the the rarely used second person as a writer here because we all know first person storytelling and we all know third person storytelling less. Commonly used less commonly known as second person second person is like right here this man hitter story arc is where like the author is talking directly to the character if you could only stop running in your dreams turn and fight. Maybe you could do the same in reality.

44:22.48

cbderrick

You don't see that? Yeah no.

44:22.79

Steven Bagatourian

You don't see that very often in fiction. It's a fairly rarely used narrative device James Robinson doing it here.

44:28.10

cbderrick

Yeah I mean I mean you know because the books I have they're all signed by Jane Robinson like I remember meeting him down at comiccon and I had him sign all these um and um him and ah him and Paul Smith like signed all my issues.

44:37.56

Steven Bagatourian

Um, oh cool.

44:45.31

Steven Bagatourian

Oh Rand.

44:47.39

cbderrick

And um, ah James Robinson you know he did a book. The first time I ever read any of his stuff. He did a book for malbu called firearm.

44:57.30

Steven Bagatourian

I read firearm. Yes, he was like the fucking dude who was kind of like a he was in L A was he like an L a Hitman private eye kind of dude. Yeah I read that.

45:04.48

cbderrick

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and I mean I I remember meeting him one time at the golden apple when it was like at the main store on on. Ah, he's really really cool. Smart fun. Got to talk to I thought I was really great. So I saw him ah and I saw him later on a couple years later to see ah um to sign the golden design the golden age he actually remembered me. He's like oh I mentioned you before did I meet the he was wait a minute I know you did I meet you I was like what what he mean he was like yeah yeah, did I meet you somewhere I was like yeah yeah I meet you up but up we were talking about firearm and he was like oh yeah I was shocked that he kind of just remembered me.

45:27.75

Steven Bagatourian

Ah, wow.

45:42.99

Steven Bagatourian

Ah, that's really cool.

45:43.14

cbderrick

Didn't know my name it assume my face and um that it was really cool but it was like ah but but but but he's like a real like you know is evidenced by his star man book. You know he is like a he he loves literature and he loves what the with the like he's a.

45:54.43

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

46:02.90

cbderrick

Interesting kind of like we're I hate to use the word warmith but he is because you know who's going to use a second person you know, like almost nobody was going to use but he does it in a really fascinating way. Um, yeah, it's dope. It's really really dope you know and.

46:07.67

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah, no, you're right? You're right? and it is super sorry. Go go ahead.

46:20.10

cbderrick

No I just I was just I was gonna say you know it's just like and this last little piece with the with the man hunter and and that that that fat dude is saving him and I mean like the panel layout is so kind of charged and electric and it's like who is guys hunting the man hunter and that's what's cool too is that like. You know, um I remember reading this and then I realized there was a man like man hunter was then later on revised by Goodwin and Walt Simonson and I was like I don't know which is ah I mean I he's not interesting as as a character. In his golden as version obviously compared to the Silver Rays version but the way he's like the way he's deployed in this story is unbelievable because it's really the only action in like the first 3 issues right is is each of the man hunter stories. You're like what the fuck is going on.

47:07.89

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah.

47:13.83

cbderrick

Except maybe this stuff with Robot man when Robot man is like I think issue one when they first fired me like oh yeah, little fight but Robot man I think was an issue one where he like rips that guy's arm offer some shit like that.

47:16.94

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, and also Allen Alllan Scott and his ah 2 page fight with sportsmaster.

47:27.59

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, that might have been issue one.

47:31.25

cbderrick

Yeah there's like some weird. Yeah, when they find robot man and he's like fighting someone and he's like out in the streets and he literally like yeah yeah, there's is this weird panel at issue one where he's fighting someone and he's like um, flesh the panel says flesh breeds. Bone breaks and then the next panel is like this weird silhouette. Where's all black with the silhouettes in red and he's throw 1 guy one way and another guy other way and the guy's arm is snapped off and it's just like fuck and later on the final page of that panic goes when he's like trying to say he's not really human. It's like his face is like a smiling man but he's got all his blood on it. You're like god damn deal you fucking like rip someone apart and unlesss you know again like this guy he was there. He wasn't around people who kind of kept him in check you know so all the heroes again are gone and he like went.

48:11.54

Steven Bagatourian

It.

48:25.17

cbderrick

And they were like he's more a robot than man now he's lost that edge of humanity that that you know that he becomes you know or or that he had um, final stuff in issue 2 is you see text Thompson he's writing in this diary that he keeps locked and then you see.

48:31.76

Steven Bagatourian

I.

48:44.30

cbderrick

You know Daniel Dunbar is up here doing cocaine and perhaps even heroin. He's just like what the fuck is ah it's pretty crazy and like and I love it because the mystery is so like what is going on like you don't know anything what the mystery and is.

48:49.00

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah, yeah.

48:59.17

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah, they don't spell it out. It's just kind of like weird like what the relationship is and what's happening with these 2 guys here. But it's just kind of like some disturbing sounding dialogue. Our plans are itinerary goes well Truman's in the white house I knew he'd win this year that I was too new in the arena to compete but in 52 things will be different I'll run I'll win I'll become president and we will rule America and you're just like what the fuck is going on with these guys like what what is their plan. What what are they going to do here and. And then what's his name the kid doing cocaine um Dinah Dinah kid dunbar he says no, you're wrong by then you'll have convinced the country to attack russia and china and with me and other super beings doing the fighting victory is assured. Therefore in 52 when you're elected president sniff. He does a huge line of coke we will rule the world. so so yeah that's pretty pretty dark.

50:01.49

cbderrick

Yeah I mean and it's a pretty dark exit and again like just like in the just like an issue one last 2 pages are are text Thompson and fucking and Daniel Dubar and it's like he's totally changed him from a global kid. To some somebody who's got some dangerous ideas and it's just like what's going on now. What's cool is haven't talked about the covers but the cover of issue one and issue 2 fucking amazing. You know, just I mean like I just said the the design was got that weird.

50:29.92

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, gorgeous covers.

50:37.85

cbderrick

That kind of like ah um, art deco. We kind of like text for the title page and it's like oh yeah, it is. It's yeah yeah, it is is yeah, it's embossed this is embossed. It's so dope.

50:41.57

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, and it's raised like it's raised on the cover as I recall you've got the physical copies. Yeah I remember that? yeah.

50:52.89

cbderrick

It's so dope and fucking like on that. Ah yeah, this thing about it is that that cover I think I used to be a poster for this cover issue number one I know there was a poster for this.

51:00.75

Steven Bagatourian

So it's like a cover of life magazine that's on fire and it's burning with a picture of this of like this classic sort of Justice society in ah in all in Heroic poses and it's burning and it's on fire. But it's like in a circular shape.

51:17.94

cbderrick

Yeah, yeah, yeah, pretty amazing stuff and again like Paul Smith and Richard Ori they like they went I don't know they went off the charts with this shit man. Um, they but but like you just mentioned something to me that made me think of something.

51:19.61

Steven Bagatourian

But it looks like a magazine cover. Yeah, it's yeah it is.

51:29.52

Steven Bagatourian

They really did. It's gorgeous work I mean really gorgeous.

51:36.51

cbderrick

Um. Oh he said he wants to he wants to be the you know I'm reading this book reading this Book. It's called by a ah hold. Um, let me get it because it's right next to here interesting about.

51:53.10

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah, well while you're looking for it I just want to give ah props to Dc comics in the 90 s for crediting the colorist Richard Ori on the cover of the book in 93 which you know Dc I think had started doing that I think in the early ninety s. Crediting colorists on titles like on covers occasionally and that's just a very progressive thing for a comic company to be doing and you know that's something you you still don't see today. A lot of the times the color is getting a credit on the cover and and so that's I mean.

52:22.11

cbderrick

No.

52:27.79

Steven Bagatourian

You see it certainly more today but like back then it was a very rare thing so that's nice to see it Richard Ory well deserveved cover credit.

52:32.11

cbderrick

Well well yeah because this book is not the same without him again again you know not to harp on the exmen in the watchmen ah comparisons. Um, but the coloring in this is like heads and shoulder above watchmen.

52:48.53

Steven Bagatourian

Um, I you know I cannot disagree with you I think for my money I mean Paul Smith as an artist is for me somebody that like very few people come close to and so Paul Smith being colored by Richard Ori here like this is a.

52:50.71

cbderrick

Head and shoulder.

53:08.38

Steven Bagatourian

This is an all star just incredible combination. Yeah I'm I'm with you I would pick I would pick the art on Golden age over the art on Watchmen just purely from an aesthetic point of view to me. It's It's much more like aesthetically pleasing. It's much more up my alley.

53:22.59

cbderrick

Yeah, so I'm in this book called before the storm it's about, but it's about ah Barry Goldwater and the rise of of conservatism in America right? and it's written by a guy who's like a.

53:35.34

Steven Bagatourian

Oh wow.

53:40.91

cbderrick

Is ah is a Republic He's a he's a conservative Historian and the but the book is not like um.

53:42.54

Steven Bagatourian

I Think oh oh you, you've been read, you were reading this book a little while ago too I think one of the last times that we met up at the alcove a few months ago for dinner I think you meant you mentioned this book. Okay, yeah, yeah, that makes sense that makes sense.

53:49.70

cbderrick

Yeah, well because it's ah it's 700 pages so it's like a long fucking book. Um, it's good though because but it's interesting because talking about it talk about this same period where he's talking about words. It's like where the republicans wanted to take control and text Thompson. Feeling like a Barry Goldwater type of the way he's kind of like maneuvering and like trying to embrace like Mccarthyism and and just like an an un repentant to the liberal agenda which is essentially the way he's playing it like before we know the reveal which is going to happen in issue. 3 it's like oh this guy is really like he's he's really showing to be like like a republican and I think it's interesting because you know this this this guy this Richard prostein wrote this book for it's like he's wrote see's he's next the next book is called like Nixon land and then is once called like Reagan's America is a third book.

54:31.11

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

54:44.16

Steven Bagatourian

Oh.

54:46.80

cbderrick

And he and he wrote a book. Ah our op ed about the rise of Trump in like 2018 and he was like we republican historians we got it all wrong. You know because we because ah you you read it and it's like they dismiss.

54:57.29

Steven Bagatourian

Smooth.

55:05.61

cbderrick

The ah the racist right? then is it and I was kind of like well yeah because you guys are academics and buying academic in general then you're going to be progressive because you're an academic.

55:09.88

Steven Bagatourian

Yes.

55:24.76

cbderrick

So so so so it it doesn't matter that you have conservative beliefs you so and the whole thing and and even the guy named William F Buckley those guys are trying to form the new version of what it meant to be a conservative. So so the really progressive conservatives is what it is.

55:39.50

Steven Bagatourian

The earth.

55:42.28

cbderrick

They they just do't want the liberal agenda and what they fail to look at is the is like the rise of like William Metzker and those type of like right wing like racist extremist and stuff like that and it's like when I look back at this now and I read this book. It's like Thompson he's appealing. To that type of message that like Trump was appealing to of like the reactionary type of past of America he's ah ah, he's demanding that that he wants that from the people and and and the.

56:10.20

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah, yeah.

56:18.51

cbderrick

Eating it up and I think he can get it as the senator and it's like yeah, that's this ad dangerousious level of like this weird when he's writing this at 92 that this is what he's like kind of like thinking about and obviously James Robinson's a little older and he's stopping like maybe you know ah i't not sure how old he is but he can't be.

56:28.29

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

56:38.70

cbderrick

You you know he's got to be leasts maybe 185 years older than us when he's writing this at the time and so Meanss he's you know? So maybe he's a child of like 1960 or something like that so he has a different ah understanding of what it means to be a conservative or what not the hasingerser. But what what conservatives mean. In America and about how dangerous they were. That's and that's why he's because textops is his rhetoric doesn't sound like it sounds jingoistic in the in the right way this dangerous. That we understand now that we didn't we quite get then but we know is dangerous because of who he's really appealing to and then the reveal is. That's why when you find out who these people are you're like oh shit this why like sounds right? because it. It's ah I mean yeah, um, we'll get it in a second but it's like the.

57:17.36

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah. Yeah.

57:28.96

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah.

57:31.85

cbderrick

But these next so we get issue 3 it's now like 1949 so it's been like 3 years since the first book ah issue one and it's like and and it's everyone is kind of like coasting along and not making it well and I love this part where Carter Hall is like he's gone deep. Deep into his like Egyptian history and and who he thinks he is and being reincarnated and it's really done. Yeah, yeah, he's gone mad. He's gone real real mad. Um, you know and and and Ted Ted Knight's trying to get back or he's out of the sanitarium.

57:50.37

Steven Bagatourian

Yes.

57:57.22

Steven Bagatourian

Hawkman Hawkman gone gone mad.

58:09.70

cbderrick

Trying to you know? Oh and it's it's their main thing is they won all these like like dumbbar has this vow I want to know who the mystery men are please unmask yourselves. So America can move forward and because because he needs to know who. Yeah, like who his enemies are once the reveals gonna happen. It was gonna happen really pretty quickly. There's more this cool stuff with man hunter with his solution is his hallucinatory dreams. The dreams are so I mean like like this imagery and the dreams are like's just one panel where he's like a rat and he turns into a man. Is part of the I mean that that little like that that that evolution is like I mean.

58:46.22

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah, the rat the rat imagery is really disturbing like that one that one page I think maybe this is the one you're thinking of too in issue 3 where it's like the rats are are chewing off.

58:58.90

cbderrick

Um, yeah.

59:04.31

Steven Bagatourian

Paul Kirk Manhunter's face they're they're chewing off his face and then in that same page. There's like ah there's an eagle that's laid out on like ah like what looks like a laboratory table and the eagle is like fucking laid out with all these rats like eating the eagle.

59:04.51

cbderrick

Yeah, yeah I.

59:23.37

Steven Bagatourian

And like it's just it's a really disturbing page with the rats and Paul Kirk and the eagle and it's ah it's genuinely a nightmarish series of images on that page like it's it's it's rare to like see a comic page that's genuinely disturbing in a you know, especially in a mainstream comic. But that's a a fairly.

59:32.10

cbderrick

For sure.

59:42.29

Steven Bagatourian

Disturbing Nightmarish image there I got to say.

59:42.53

cbderrick

no no I mean I it feel you knows cool, but this it feels like a big feels like something that Kelly Jones would do you know or or or or yeah, it's pretty group them.

59:47.94

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like you see the tendons of his flesh being ripped off man like like like his actual like his whole face is being chewed off in like all kinds of tendons. The rats are eating everything. Yes, it's horrific.

01:00:01.00

cbderrick

This is this is yeah I mean like like the level like like like it's these these 2 these 2 these like splat dual pay splasht pages of like the hallucinations and and the bad dreams that Paul has and and that ah Rex Tyler has is really a smart kind of like. Shocking way to get into like like like there's psychosis.

01:00:24.50

Steven Bagatourian

It's pretty amazing and did you notice on this page that the rats are turning into people. Yeah, ah okay, that's oh that's that oh I didn't catch that before. Okay, okay oh so that's what you meant? Okay I gotcha I got you I I didn't catch that like it's literally Yeah, the rats are.

01:00:27.32

cbderrick

Yeah, no less I will say yeah that I'll say yeah, there's like there would that evolution thing of like the Rat and to the people It's like.

01:00:42.80

Steven Bagatourian

Turning into people that is wild.

01:00:42.83

cbderrick

And the mean the turning into the scientists because later on when once we get to reveal what's happening then it's like oh I see why the rats are the scientists because they're gonna be. They're like rats. They're betraying us. You know? um.

01:00:49.15

Steven Bagatourian

Um.

01:00:58.34

Steven Bagatourian

And earth.

01:01:00.65

cbderrick

And you know that's so that's the Paul Kirk story like that little so that little interlude and they're like they're on like a train like's well they're in like a dam they're like there. There's some hobo stuff in that you know it's like I mean that last panel there with arc on that train on the bridge. It's like again, he's chosen this angle.

01:01:09.83

Steven Bagatourian

Right? right? what.

01:01:20.23

cbderrick

That this composition that's just like is where he excels it who is is kind of like the guy. Um Alllan zellins and it reason right? where he choose these kind of angles where he's gonna be like inside of of nature in a way.

01:01:22.52

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah.

01:01:34.66

Steven Bagatourian

Um, oh or like oh you mean you you mean like siroko. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:01:39.50

cbderrick

Sooco soocco yeah sirocco. Yeah roroco yeah, yeah, yeah, roroco and it's like it's just like it's a smart way to kind of like transition in and out of like locations. Um, and then he jumps into like this Johnny quick and Liberty Bell They finalized their divorce you know and then.

01:01:47.10

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

01:01:58.40

cbderrick

He's hanging out with Alan Scott again and Alice Scott is looking at his ring and he's like I just I mean he's the weight of it is still because his people getting like getting fired. Oh that 1 guy has shot himself like one of his ah writers shot himself because he didn't want to like the the stuff with the communism the hugh act committee.

01:02:04.35

Steven Bagatourian

The 1

01:02:16.94

cbderrick

I mean it's interesting kind of b blend of what's happening in America at that time the rise of like taking these oaths of these oaths against of loyalty oaths and you have this which mimics the what you know the reveal of of who the villains are in this. Um. And it's just it's ah you know and there's more about the story with like Liberty Bell getting her job and tarant up being a fuckup and what's crazy is like like like that pros they represent the you know they show of his writing like it's just terrible writing. It's just fucking terrible. It's so bad. Yeah.

01:02:46.72

Steven Bagatourian

Um, ah are you dissing the tarantula as a novelist Chris well let's let let's read that. Ah so the the text says ah such was her haste.

01:02:55.52

cbderrick

It's just terrible. It's so bad.

01:03:04.89

Steven Bagatourian

That the lipstick she'd bought yesterday afternoon was left to roll off the top of her dresser falling to the floor and breaking its fine new redness on the filth of the carpet. This lulabel hadn't noticed nor would she have cared if she had. The door to her trailer was thrown open by her with a force that only passion and longing can bring that and the hope that this figure this hulking male form was hanks the heat of the morn was as dry and burning as all the mornings that week she noticed that fact, no more then her broken lipstick. Ah well well he agrees with you the next panel he he throws it off the desk rubbish now not worth the paper. Oh god.

01:03:39.55

cbderrick

I Mean it's terrible. It's just fucking terrible He like Rubbish rubbish get it out and I get right? They yeah then he pulled out a bottle but I love it. Love it. What's weird about that though is every writer knows that every writer knows that feeling of I wrote shit and I can't I can't save it. But now we begin to unfold the story where.

01:03:57.37

Steven Bagatourian

That's great.

01:04:12.97

cbderrick

Um, Text Thompson's lover like she's up here crying like this this whole thing where it's like like the way he was fucking. Her was just like beating her up you know and then he's there like writing in this journal and then you know you know, just. The robot man kills someone Carter Hall is going crazy some more he said car. No, that's not Carter Hall that's fucking the dumb bar doing some satanic ritual. Um.

01:04:37.74

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah that's a wild page with Dunbar here too. By the way he's naked drawing pentagrams on a concrete floor and like sacrificing things and I mean yeah, dunbar and like. He looks incredibly disturbing in that last panel.

01:04:56.47

cbderrick

Oca pooi but you see he's like got cocaine and heroin. He's like really doing it up. You know he's really doing it up. You know, um, and and then we're back to Rex Tyler story

01:04:58.61

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, oh yeah, you're right? Wow shit Jesus.

01:05:09.37

cbderrick

You know it's interesting because like these stories they get into like these these personal stories don't have anything to necessarily do with like the the overarching mixture the mystery but it's just kind of fallout of about what they're about when they can't be who they want to be.

01:05:25.97

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

01:05:28.20

cbderrick

And I think part of this part of all this story's themes. Are you know you can't turn your back on who you really are you know and and and and everybody wants to and then the 1 guy who wants it the most Rex Tyler he's fucking himself because the pill was just like too. Too much for him. You know this is a big fight with with Tranterla and Liberty Bell which I think is great and then we go back and meet and we meet this more stuff with Paul Kirley's being chased by you know those scientists rats who turn to scientists. Yeah, yeah, what like it's like some.

01:05:57.17

Steven Bagatourian

And and he's and he's care and he's carrying an eagle wrapped in a blanket. Yeah so awesome I Love I Love the panel where you're close on the eagle in the blanket and it says save the eagle. It's like a little baby.

01:06:05.52

cbderrick

Baby you know? ah.

01:06:11.71

cbderrick

Yeah, it's just like it's just crazy. He's so good. He's so good at this you know then Paul Kirk is like I mean Paul Kirk is like I gotta fucking get my act together but get us. It's that second person narrative which I think is awesome. Yeah, and you know and then they go to meet.

01:06:16.89

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah.

01:06:23.76

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah.

01:06:31.81

cbderrick

Carter Hall who's gonna hypnotize Paul Kirk to find out what he does. But why? why what? he doesn't remember and it gets this whole story about about text thmpson text about text stops and like they're in Germany during the war and what he was doing and they both were like. You know, like doing the most like just this underground kind of killing and stuff like that and then he stumbles across. He's given. Ah, he's given a murder to go into some like german castle to kill some some big player and he turns around and he stumbles and and sees what's going on. Sees that this actress is dead went missing and text tops that is down this table and he realizes that there's some kind of like some weird kind of like brain surgery going on and he can't put it together. And then we jump over to Tigerris and and the guy who plays Captain Triumph their little love affair and the woman who was her name like ah the woman who Paul I can't remember yeah Paula who was who was textoson like girlfriend she comes over and she has the she has the the. The diary of of of text Thompson and and then it fills in the the final piece the villain the ultra humanmanites he who figured out he's figured how to transfer of the yeah the the ultrahumanite he's figured out how to to change.

01:07:55.23

Steven Bagatourian

But so yeah, oh yeah, the Ultra Ultra Ah ultrahumanite.

01:08:04.96

Steven Bagatourian

Yes.

01:08:05.43

cbderrick

Switch his brain and he switched his brain into this woman and then he switched his brain into text Thompson and that's what Paul Kirk has seen and that's why his like his memory is. It's so horrific to him to know that this that they're old they're old nemesis

01:08:18.20

Steven Bagatourian

So yeah.

01:08:24.31

cbderrick

Is doing this thing and that has killed his boy and he like stumbles out and falls and like breaks his head and and ah ah and and he he's just he's he's just he's amnesia is exacerbated by the shock of what he's seen. But but.

01:08:39.31

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah.

01:08:43.77

cbderrick

But you know, but they realize oh my god you know we have a problem because the champion of America is really an arch villain in disguise and then like the coolest kind of white thing is that they go oh my god. There's still someone else that the guy Dunbar is and and they go. We can't believe this but they they hold it off in that reveal for this whole issue you know for the rest of the issue and it's like it's pretty crazy. You know what' like it's pretty I mean and just it's all kind of wrapped up with Paul Kirk and and um and and and and you fill out that oh my god the guy who's our the war hero he's like the ultimate villain that the justice society has faced and now they're all in trouble and they calling up Alan Scott and he's like dude you know but but Alice got he's he's putting is he taking the ring out or he's putting the ring away I think he's he's putting the ring away in the yeah his safe when they you know were Carter Hall and Johnny Quick get together and they go here's what's really going on.

01:09:43.30

Steven Bagatourian

Um, well.

01:09:56.50

cbderrick

Here's the real identity of you know of like dunbar not dumbbar or dumbbar and text Thompson but they don't say who dumbbar's like who like whose brain is trapped inside Dunbar and that's for the the hold off to issue 4

01:10:11.67

Steven Bagatourian

And and and and right going into that grand fan finale I just got to call out that final page the full page last page of issue 3 just a ah stunning Paul Smith image that like it looks like it's just it's just so iconic. It's just.

01:10:13.63

cbderrick

The Grand finale.

01:10:30.22

cbderrick

Well I love it because you know it's like like green lantern. He's kind of like aziman is ah in a way. It's just like his like his the way he is in the washman book know he's like kind of in that is that who it is. He's in the tower and he's like not really.

01:10:31.34

Steven Bagatourian

Beautiful like gorgeous shots.

01:10:48.32

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:10:48.99

cbderrick

Part of everybody and he like he feels like he's a big businessman. It's like it's very similar because he's got that big like Atlas type of character as his symbol you know like the weight again like the weight of the world is on my shoulders as green lantern as you know as Alan Scott and

01:11:00.20

Steven Bagatourian

Yes. Yes.

01:11:08.20

cbderrick

Ah, and then he's and in the his phone's just ringing in these this final panel which is like Johnny Quit calling him getting ready to tell him you know what? the fuck is happening dude the wildest shit imaginable.

01:11:17.78

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, and I think that that last page like I don't know if it's a reference to ein Rand and like Atlas shrugged but it looks pretty so it looks pretty similar like here I just pulled up the fiftieth anniversary edition of Atlas shrugged.

01:11:25.82

cbderrick

Oh what Prob one is or probably toruing is.

01:11:35.59

cbderrick

Um, yeah, oh yeah.

01:11:35.91

Steven Bagatourian

And if you look at that it looks It looks pretty close. It looks pretty close to that last that last page. Yeah, um, yeah.

01:11:41.26

cbderrick

Oh no completely is it completely is now that you mentioned that it is because I've seen that and rad thing and earlier on. Maybe it's issue one when we first see ah Alan Scott's kind of like his media thing it. It is an atlas character cold night globe. Yeah, and it's the same thing you know? wow.

01:11:55.20

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:12:00.28

cbderrick

And never thought about that. That's a great that's a great ah I don't say pull but a great a great. It's it's it's great linkage you great Lincoln yeah, but.

01:12:09.64

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah, well, it's like you said about Robinson though, it's like he draws from like a lot of different literary kind of sources and and whatnot and I think Robinson is ah a very well-read very clever writer and he's writing stories on multiple layers here and and honestly the. The bad guy. The the villain being like the a Us political figure icon who now ultimately is out to get the heroes It's also got you know shades of ah Damon Linda Loft's watchmen as well like in terms of the. Lindello lindello's watchman like you know you've got that bad guy who also is the ah the senator who's like seemingly the seemingly heroic senator who turns out to be a real badie um in in watchmen and that's you know I wouldn't be surprised if Damon Lindelof read golden age I'm sure he.

01:12:53.60

cbderrick

Oh yeah, yeah yeah.

01:13:01.75

Steven Bagatourian

Very likely did twenty five years ago and you know that's a very it's a similar similar arc.

01:13:04.44

cbderrick

Well I mean I'm sure if probably were trick I be read it recently too because when he was doing that show because um, you know as a comic fan as a washman fan you have to know this book you have to know it's It's considered by some maybe a knockoff of.

01:13:15.85

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

01:13:23.10

cbderrick

Of watchmen but like like like I think it's superior and only because there's more gravitas to what it is and there's in terms of who the characters are what they're going through and kind of like how we kind of um. You know like I think the way that we contextualize them because of who they are and I also feel like you know, like being set in the 50 s when those characters were were about something whereas in watchmen like they're over what what they call the minute men. It's like the minute minute had been over for like 2030 years when

01:13:55.20

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah, yeah.

01:14:00.13

cbderrick

Community is is getting killed in that first issue it doesn't feel like it has the same kind of I just think it's harder to parse because when you tell me the comedian's dead I don't know what that means at first and me 70 to the character but doesn't doesn't mean anything to me as the the ah the reader.

01:14:12.84

Steven Bagatourian

Right? yeah.

01:14:19.35

cbderrick

But you tell me the green lantern is giving it up I'm like ooo Johnny Quick is giving it up and Jay Garrick because the because Jay Garrick isn't in this but they he is said in that first issue when Johnny Quick is like trying to decide who who do it.

01:14:22.20

Steven Bagatourian

So yeah.

01:14:30.21

Steven Bagatourian

He he talks of it. He talks about him a little bit.

01:14:34.57

cbderrick

Yeah, he's kind of like well who's faster you know is it me or flash. The device is like the world doesn't need a flash anymore and he's like done you know, but I think he comes back in issue 4 issue 4 in.

01:14:43.80

Steven Bagatourian

Well by the way that just that that's a fascinating point you make about the weight and like the power of like icons because you're right, the comedian obviously of course when you first read watchmen doesn't have that built-in kind of iconic status and as you're reading it. You only respond to that story you know via the the brilliance of watchmen and the brilliance of the storytelling but you don't have the the weight of an actually iconic character going into that whereas with this story. You're right? You've got. Like green lantern and the flash and like all the history that these characters bring to them and it's just it's ah it is a different kind of a toy box to be playing with here and and I think you're you're staking out some very bold territory by ah, declaring your preference for golden age over watchmen and i. Respect your ah very bold choice here and I I expect we'll we'll hear from some of the listeners on that and.

01:15:38.85

cbderrick

Well I like I'm up to up up sure the listeners be like Chris fuck you you know you're talking about Washington but bla bla but you know, but but I mean look and it it's it' just you know like like my thing is.

01:15:44.69

Steven Bagatourian

Ah.

01:15:55.42

cbderrick

Watchmen requires a so I mean look the the reason why watch I mean this's not the the only reason but 1 of the reasons I feel that watchman has all that backs like that backma. There was like those big those big chunks and of pros in the back is that Alan Moore is trying to trying to he's trying to build.

01:16:05.71

Steven Bagatourian

Yes, yes.

01:16:13.27

cbderrick

This level of familiarity with the characters by telling you their previous adventures. So that when you so you get a sense of who they were how they operated what they meant to each other the kind of stuff they did so that when they begin to get unraveled and when the comedian like Rapes like.

01:16:27.80

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah I think I think that's right, the original the original spill so specter. Whatever yeah.

01:16:30.72

cbderrick

So spectrum or stuff like that or is that is that a name so expector or we yeah yeah, it's like it like it. It kind of I mean I I like it has more weight to it because it's not is as more. It's just you know it's kind of like you know, um.

01:16:42.52

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

01:16:50.71

cbderrick

It's kind of like if you look at born again right? like born again and you look at dark night like those things have a lot of value as the reader because you're like oh shit here's Karen page. We haven't seen in like 10 years in the in the dirtevil comics.

01:17:04.43

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah.

01:17:06.95

cbderrick

Or some like that. Maybe not maybe he's not done but but at least 3 to 5 years well the whole Frank Miller runs she wasn't in it right? and and and and then for another two years you know, ah you know someone else is doing it the the book and then Miller comes back with Maticelli and his first page is like.

01:17:12.75

Steven Bagatourian

And move.

01:17:25.45

cbderrick

Is of Karen page down in like some South American shithole like like buying harine and you're like and it's like oh she's to be a porn ares. She's like what but wait last time I remember Karen page. She's just leaving New York to go to California.

01:17:29.81

Steven Bagatourian

Right? right.

01:17:40.48

cbderrick

And it's like and it's there's weight to that story because you're bringing back someone you knew that you had some sort of like emotional attachment to and Batman dark that we know it's like well fuck that's Bruce Wayne in the feet. We we never seen that um you know it's kind of like ah I mean it's like I can know there's like that.

01:17:46.66

Steven Bagatourian

Sure.

01:18:00.35

cbderrick

Old man Logan and and I mean like a story like think about it right? Ah old man Logan if that comes out around the time that Miller did that Miller did his. Ah, wolverine like mini series. You know when he goes to Japan ya to become a ah a guide Gen and stuff like that. Yeah, that old man Logan Story wouldn't have any weight to us because we haven't had enough Logan adventures and his and his rise to fame in the comic like like ecosystem.

01:18:21.47

Steven Bagatourian

Oh yeah, yeah you with with Claremont. Yeah.

01:18:37.56

cbderrick

First to have that omen look like log log store like I have have any I mean you gave me like yeah like it would work but it wouldn't work the same way you know and.

01:18:42.29

Steven Bagatourian

Right? It wouldn't have the same It's the same weight. You know it's true and it's like you say about Alan Moore it's like he's given you all those text pieces and watchmen to build the context for what these characters were and what they represented so you can feel the sense of loss. And you can feel you know what has been lost because he's telling you what they were and he's explaining so much of you know the context of that whole world and you know and I love it and it's brilliant. But you're right He's doing a lot of heavy lifting to kind of fill in that that gravitas and that weight.

01:19:15.53

cbderrick

Because it's ising you bring up dim a little off his thing because I you know that it's the issue sorry episode 3 of his series met be episode 2 my favorite episode 3 was that one with gene smart which you.

01:19:27.90

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah, that was episode episode 3 great episode.

01:19:35.16

cbderrick

Yeah, and it's like and she's there on the phone and she's calling Dr Manhattan and is is and I mean that episode did a lot of emotional heavy lifting about who Dr Manhattan was and what she meant to that to which what what he meant to g smart's character. From Twenty thirty years ago that if you never read the watchman comic that that episode builds the the emotional heft of what the watchmen what the minutemen meant to society. You know like. In that episode and it's like you know I have to do that I mean it's great. They they did that. But you know, but it's you know, but it's like but but you have to do that because you can't rely upon the cultural value of something you know and that's why I think that golden age. Ah, like to me it resonates a little stronger to me as a reader of comics and a reader of superhero comics at the time you know like I and I always is am I reading it I'm just like you know I mean I knew who allud these people people were and like their backstors like like like the Rex Ty thing Johnny Quick and Liberty Bell like and and the whole thing with sports master was like you see the humanity again. It's like you know you know the big knock on Dc comics was we don't know them as people and that was that whole thing that Stanley did with Marvel was like let's. Like I want the heroes to be heroes but I want their alter egos to have more like weight and power to the so their reader can identify more and that's what that's what James Robinson does like with these characters that.

01:21:16.15

Steven Bagatourian

Right? pipe.

01:21:26.74

cbderrick

If you were reading this stuff when it originally came out that you that you weren't getting like like you weren't getting this sense that that Liberty Bell gave up her life to be like a housewife that she doesn't she doesn't like but because but she's in love with this guy that's eroding. Because he's because he's has his own crisis of of confidence and that's like affecting her but she's not how to get out of the marriage. There's the same kind of problems she had with Johnny Quick there's just this domestic strife you know like to what's going on like like when you read them and you're like oh this feels like like. Parker and Mary Jane but like later on in their life. You know and I mean I mean that's what it felt like to me like reading it again now and I think like reading it several times in the past I just I just I could see the the how it was all fracturing in a way and I don't remember Watchmen like.

01:22:01.85

Steven Bagatourian

Who.

01:22:20.60

cbderrick

Having that kind of emotional response for me, you know that I mean you know like I mean I'm not look I'm not even saying Watchman is a bad book like like it's ah it's a groundbreaking piece of work and it deserves to be where it is in the the pantheon of of great convicts and stuff like that.

01:22:22.64

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

01:22:39.26

cbderrick

I just think that this book works better for me on an emotional level. You know also because it's like the like this like the reveal the reveal that Hitler is that's the big reveal that Hitler's brains are put into the to Daniel Dumbbar like that is shocking shockingly original to me.

01:22:42.52

Steven Bagatourian

Sure.

01:22:54.73

Steven Bagatourian

Further.

01:22:57.25

cbderrick

And I was like what what does you do like wait a minute because you took it from was the the the the the ultra humanmanite you took him him from that guy who I kind of knew as ah as a villain and you didn't like put in this real world stuff of.

01:22:59.69

Steven Bagatourian

Ah, yeah.

01:23:16.98

cbderrick

I'm not just goingnna like you know, like trick you like oh is is some other kind of some other villain or like you is it parszeval or one of these other kind of villains that they've kind of tricked you it's like oh no, we didn't let Hitler Die we saved hitler and it was like that's a genius level kind of like trick reveal. What the plan was and you know I remember I remember around this time I was reading this I was I was so into like world War Ii and like the ride how naziism like like like arose you know I remember reading this book. There is this this.

01:23:49.72

Steven Bagatourian

The.

01:23:55.63

cbderrick

Ah, sociologist was saying that like there's things in like certain cultures ah certain nationalities that would give rise to like like ah like an authoritarian like leader like Hitler and the guy pointed out. That here's the scale of like here's the number 1 2 3 4 countries that have a cultural thing that will allow for that and actually the United States was ranked number 1 And Germany was ranked number 3 and I was and like Switzerland was ranked between like the 2 of them and I was like.

01:24:21.25

Steven Bagatourian

Wow Wow Oh yo, that's fascinating.

01:24:29.46

cbderrick

Blowing my mind and just think this blow my mind. This was was being said and and then the thing is it's like you think about it and like look what's happening now to our culture like the people and um, you know I was at this thing the other night with Billy Ray right he he invited me to this did his charity thing screenwriter. Billy Ray you wrote ah Captain Phillips and ah the hunger games and ah some other shit ruy cool shit tons of coolshit um state of play and and ah but he invited me this thing called for common defense.

01:24:46.91

Steven Bagatourian

The ah this the screenwriter.

01:24:57.00

Steven Bagatourian

Ton of stuff.

01:25:05.21

cbderrick

Which is this this this left wing Veteran Group charity thing and he said something at the end about what conservatives are About. He said this is why the go P is in free Fall. He said that conservatives. Hate chaos and that they are and that that that every big story that they've able to use as a talking point or whatever they're as stuff like that it all Preys on if you do this chaos will ensue.

01:25:40.40

Steven Bagatourian

Oh.

01:25:40.67

cbderrick

If you you know if you vote from if you if you vote for Michael de caucus then these black men will come out. They'll come out on furloughs and they'll rape your wives that's chaos and I was like that's a really smart point and he was like republicans and and conservatives are they're willing to give up their. Civil liberties to maintain order and to to not embrace chaos and the language that do that Tex Thompson is talking about the same language that Hitler was talking about that that Trump talked about was how do we contain the chaos we open the borders like the liberals want. That's going to be chaos and I just was like this is where again that book I was reading that before the storm. That's why text Thompson's language now I'm reading it. It just sounds like he's appealing to that level of America that is willing to give up its civil rights. Its freedom. To to maintain to avoid chaos. But the crazy thing is they're a brain chaos is is hitler and the ultra humanmanite who are the actual like the the string pollers of all this shit. it's it's is I mean this is is brilliant piece of writing I think.

01:26:46.30

Steven Bagatourian

Ah.

01:26:55.51

Steven Bagatourian

There's there is a lot going on in the golden age and clearly James Robinson had a lot on his mind with the story and I mean. You know I think this was critically acclaimed for sure when it came out and I believe it was nominated for some eisners and such and maybe 1 some as well. but um but yeah you know this is another one of those books like that I think really speaks to the reason that we wanted to do this podcast Chris because it's a pretty extraordinary piece of work here. And it's not a comic that is really top of mind that you hear people talking about very often these days I certainly haven't heard anybody amongst my comic book circles talk about the golden age for quite a while you know for for a long long-ass time and I mean. Shit it's ah it's a hell of a piece of work and and I think it's ah it's a book that deserves to be well-re rememberbered and and just remembered period because Robinson's a really interesting writer Paul Smith is I think one of the great comic artists of his generation and you know this is a book that should be in print. And hopefully we'll stay in print forever because it's it's really a ah striking and and really just lovely piece of work.

01:28:06.78

cbderrick

Well I think it was interesting about it is it you why why it might not be know that people talk about it enough is it doesn't have Superman and batman in it.

01:28:16.33

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah, you're right? You're right? It's it's it's like to most people's minds. It's like more the b team or the c team which is you know the justice society slash all-star squadron of it all and you know I mean I guess Jeff Johns Jeff Johns and David Goyer they loved these jsa characters and they went on to relaunch them post golden age. So I would um I would imagine this book was a hugely formative influence on what Johns and goyer did coming out of this.

01:28:40.66

cbderrick

Right.

01:28:46.32

cbderrick

For sure for sure. yeah yeah I remember talking I remember asking David about this and he was saying yeah he was saying that Jeff had like like Jeff had no idea who these characters were really till he read this book. You know he kind of knew of them I mean he kind of knew of them but he didn't know.

01:28:51.92

Steven Bagatourian

Oh cool.

01:29:02.53

Steven Bagatourian

Mm Really mm.

01:29:06.10

cbderrick

How they could be used in ah like and in ah in a modern day context and see how this book came out and I think that um you know because it's because again as a elseros book people could dismiss it because it's not canon. But.

01:29:08.20

Steven Bagatourian

Right.

01:29:19.70

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

01:29:22.42

cbderrick

You mentioned elsewheres the people and they usually think about like that 1 else elsewheres what the red sun or something like that when when Suam is he lands he becomes a soviet you know like there's that like there's yeah, like there's other elsew world books that people would talk about more.

01:29:33.94

Steven Bagatourian

oh oh yeah, yeah red superman red sun yeah yeah oh oh yeah Batman Gotham by gaslight.

01:29:41.96

cbderrick

Because it's Batman. It's Batman or Superman yeah got them a gaslight and it's like oh because everyone says a big fans of that and without having Batman or Superman like in this and it kind of like I think it just it doesn't have I think some don't.

01:29:50.87

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

01:29:58.50

cbderrick

You know, like those those heroes are so massive to anybody that they'll be buying anything that has those characters in it and they're like well I you know what I know green lantern and Hawkman and.

01:29:59.79

Steven Bagatourian

Ah, yeah.

01:30:10.67

Steven Bagatourian

You're you're saying you're saying the tarantula doesn't have the same poll Chris yeah, um, yeah.

01:30:16.70

cbderrick

Ah, no, but but but but but but but again, but but but you know what it's like it's like I was telling someone the other day we were talking about um television shows and he said this friend of mine said. Yeah you know there's a German cop show and I said dogs are brilliant. He's like you've seen it I was like yeah I love it and he's like you the old present to have seen this show. It show came on like in 2018 or something like that I was like yeah, it's so it's It's easily the best cop show. It's one of the best cop shows ever by far. But I don't know anyone who's seen it because it's a German show.

01:30:46.30

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah.

01:30:52.50

cbderrick

And but but but it's like I love niche stuff because niche stuff that doesn't like there's no because it's like you have to do something really ah substantial in a way and that's ah, that's a. If you're gonna be doing a superman or Batman. It's gonna be It's gonna it's gonna be a big idea that's simple at the same time. Got them by gaslight or the red sun is oh Superman is a nazi or Superman is ah is a soviet. Oh Bob bla to tell a story that's as nuanced as this. You can't you you have to have these smaller characters like Captain Triumph and taranto and Liberty Bell and and who's the guy with the lightning bolts. Ah I forget his name we didn't mention him but the guy with the you Johnny thunders and it is and it's like you like like if you deal with those characters.

01:31:35.42

Steven Bagatourian

Oh oh like Johnny thunder.

01:31:44.87

cbderrick

You can delve into who they are and like hurt them the way that Robinson hurts his characters like he doesn't do it in like ah like it's like it's not a malicious way that he's got contempt for them. He just each sense of like he really makes them human in a way where it's like you feel the gravity of their choices.

01:31:52.48

Steven Bagatourian

No.

01:32:02.86

cbderrick

And you can do that and really make them like the emotional pain you can give them is because we're like Batman doesn't feel that way so someone doesn't have that he doesn't have this kind of problems and then you kind of like and you leave them in the realm of like a Greek god.

01:32:10.49

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah.

01:32:17.62

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

01:32:19.87

cbderrick

As opposed to that. You're not That's like now I can like delve into them in a way. It's like tarant is like drinking heavily in this book. Yeah, you.

01:32:24.24

Steven Bagatourian

Ah, tarantula like beating beating his wife Liberty Bell which which kind of kind of bummed me out because I actually did like the tarantula character in allstar squadron when I was a kid and so reading this I was like ah shit taranto is a wife beater who's a drunk. Oh no.

01:32:38.64

cbderrick

It will well get Well yeah because it's like you know what? he's failed. It's like like it's it because again, it's like everybody in this has failed because they didn't fight the war and it's like how do they respond to it now he had that book but he's like I can't write another book and I I mean.

01:32:44.16

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

01:32:56.32

cbderrick

That sense like his sense of like I have no purpose because I can't write anymore and he and he has to like lash out and like they all have to lash out or they they either lash out at themselves or the la of the people are around it that they think they love you know means it's why it's why Ted Knight is in the state asylum.

01:33:14.37

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah, well and I guess that is why I suppose perhaps a big part of why DC probably insisted this be an elseworld story is because of like as you say that Robinson was choosing to quote unquote hurt these characters.

01:33:15.10

cbderrick

He's lash shot out as ah at himself.

01:33:31.36

Steven Bagatourian

Or just make extreme choices with them like putting them in you know mental institutions and and things like that. But really, what we're talking about here is just like dope dramatic storytelling. This is just like you. You take a level of extremity and you bring it to bear on all the characters.

01:33:41.12

cbderrick

Right.

01:33:49.17

Steven Bagatourian

Because that's how you tell great stories and you can't do that with the mainstream iconic characters at any company for obvious reasons because they're they're corporate playthings and they're corporate ip and of course that is the reason as we all know that Alan Moore had to take those ah Charlton characters and instead reimagine them.

01:34:07.30

cbderrick

Right.

01:34:09.14

Steven Bagatourian

And you know because they even though they were just the Charlton characters quote unquote Dc was still like a you can't do this crazy shit with these characters like go make up your own and it and again it's like that same kind of thing like you can't do that in canon you can't really. Break these characters and you know I get it on 1 level because that's sort of the engine that the whole thing runs on in corporate comics. But it also speaks to I think what Jonathan Hickman I've heard I've heard him talk about this how like mainstream comics in America it's. Perpetual second act forever and that's what you're writing you're writing the second act of all these characters lives but you're never getting to really tell a full story with these characters unless it's some sort of thing outside of canon like ah you know an old man Logan Story or A.Ah dark night returns or or whatever. But otherwise you're just you're in the second act with these people in perpetuity and that's it and you kind of have to be you know.

01:35:10.53

cbderrick

It's interesting point. Ah yeah, you know it's funny because because like in this comic Ted Knight star man he's a little unhinged right.

01:35:21.68

Steven Bagatourian

Does this.

01:35:24.88

cbderrick

And I kind of remember the way this star man is written in James Robert and star man is the father Ted Knight is a little unhinged because it's the son you know I I I ah I I never asked him this I want to ah it feels like.

01:35:32.60

Steven Bagatourian

Um, earth.

01:35:43.69

cbderrick

He still used what he could from from this ask cannon for writing that book.

01:35:46.64

Steven Bagatourian

Right? Yeah I bet you he did you know because it's like because he went on and did that Epic Star Man run that would make perfect sense that for him this was canon. You know that makes perfect sense and oh and by the way um I did look up the Eisner situation with this book.

01:35:55.84

cbderrick

Yeah, yeah.

01:36:03.88

cbderrick

Right.

01:36:05.84

Steven Bagatourian

And the golden age was nominated for best finite series at the eiseman awards did not win apparently and no other nominations which is really kind of a crime. It looks like Paul Smith richard orie were blanked. At the nominations that year. So I'd like to get a list of the 1994 eisner nominations I would like to see what 5 books were better colored better drawn than this book. I mean maybe maybe nexus maybe nexus is up I don't know what else is being published at that exact moment off the top of my head. But.

01:36:33.96

cbderrick

I Don't think I mean you know what.

01:36:44.32

cbderrick

Wait a minute wait a minute I I mean I have to look it up now because it's just like it's kind of shocking to me. Um, okay, serialized.

01:36:45.30

Steven Bagatourian

I mean shit that's kind of crazy 94 Eisner Awards Chris is looking at up shit.

01:37:01.46

cbderrick

Continuing story. Okay so best. Okay, so best finite and limited series is the 5 books are daredevil man without fear by John by Frank Miller and John Ramita Jr

01:37:08.17

Steven Bagatourian

Yes.

01:37:15.12

Steven Bagatourian

Oh wow that was that was all right? Yeah, not not great, but shallo.

01:37:19.84

cbderrick

That was okay series didn think was like all right? yeah death the high cost of living by gay men and and and ah but in paalo that's okay I mean it's it's bam me to bet. Maybe it's the best death 1 But yeah for you look at ah the golden age by Robinson and Smith.

01:37:32.73

Steven Bagatourian

It's pretty. It's pretty. It's very pretty to look at h.

01:37:39.53

cbderrick

Ah, ah, Jonah Hex did to 2 gun mojo by Joe R Lansdale and timrubu yeah and that was good. The final book is marvels by Kurt Bussek and Alex Ross and and that one and that won the thing.

01:37:42.97

Steven Bagatourian

Oh yeah, our guy Tim Truman yep who all right? That's a tough category that year there you go. That's that's ok ok I mean.

01:37:58.58

cbderrick

That one with.

01:37:59.39

Steven Bagatourian

Going up against Marvels the year it comes out like that's that's a freight train.

01:38:01.89

cbderrick

yeah yeah I mean yeah, it's crazy is is that best single issue was Batman Adventures Mad Love by Paul Denny and Bruce Tim ah marvels two and Sam man 50

01:38:07.73

Steven Bagatourian

That's tough I can't be can't be mad about that.

01:38:14.12

Steven Bagatourian

Um.

01:38:20.27

cbderrick

And Batman Adventures won

01:38:22.91

Steven Bagatourian

Whoa sam man fifty s so that's the p Craig Russell Neo Gaman ramadan issue which is phenomenal and bat wow but beman adventures mad love okay, yeah, that was a Harley Quinn story I remember and.

01:38:24.41

cbderrick

Yeah, yeah, theyre right? So yeah, yeah, and it and I mean that Anne Marvels both lost to Batman and Batman Adventures Mad Love yeah

01:38:39.55

Steven Bagatourian

So that's interesting and so Batman Adventures Mad Love and then did you say also another Batman Adventures issue oh okay okay, so that's it okay huh.

01:38:43.61

cbderrick

No, no, no was it was just it was just the Marvels number 2 Okay, yeah, the best writer is Peter David for Hulk ah eyth for hell boysys are gaming for sam man death death high council living. He got that.

01:38:53.46

Steven Bagatourian

O.

01:38:59.47

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

01:39:01.72

cbderrick

Alan Moore for 1963 spawn eight and and a small killing wow and Dave Sim for cerbus and for spawn 10 Ah best writer artist is best painter.

01:39:11.39

Steven Bagatourian

So.

01:39:18.11

cbderrick

Best pencilcer pencil inkler. Yeah, and it's it is Chris Paalo and Mark Buckingham for death high got a living Mike me Noah and and Kevin no one for alien salvation. No absolutely not.

01:39:18.70

Steven Bagatourian

So best penciller would have been Paul Smith's category. Potentially. Okay.

01:39:31.86

Steven Bagatourian

Ah.

01:39:35.80

cbderrick

Ah, John Williams and Al Williamson John Raina Juniorr and Al Williamson for je both no sammon Peco Russell and he won that.

01:39:41.58

Steven Bagatourian

Wait So is that that's best penciler anchor like as a team or just individual. Also.

01:39:47.16

cbderrick

It says best pencil slash anchor or best pencil or pencil anchor team. Yeah, so so somebody happened it like Bruce Tim for Batman adventures like mad love like he must have been pencil inking himself. Um.

01:39:52.75

Steven Bagatourian

Okay, oh so they combine them both okay got it.

01:40:00.81

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah, Wow. So no, no.

01:40:05.50

cbderrick

Chris Brous and Carl story for legionnaires they were good but they were better than golden age. Um, so the colorless was was Joe Chiyoto for wildcats death and death blow Steve Oif for spawn Matt.

01:40:08.15

Steven Bagatourian

Um, they were not better than Golden age at all.

01:40:17.30

Steven Bagatourian

Um, um, sure Matt Hol Holling Hollingsworth Hollingsworth really is really good Joe Matt yeah yeah

01:40:23.55

cbderrick

Matt Hollingsworth for aliens like labyrinth aliens salvation and creature of the black ra goon. Yeah, ah just Joe Matt for batmanrendle. That's a really good book though. It's a really really good book. Ah, there's there's Daniel.

01:40:36.71

Steven Bagatourian

and Joe yeah and Joe Matt Joe Mat's actually a good colorist. Okay, yeah, um zooko oh okay, well we we love tom zooko on this show.

01:40:41.95

cbderrick

Ah, Vozo for Sandman doesn't give an issue just this sandman and shade the changeling man and there's and there's Tom ah Tom awiko yeah zooko for hell blazer.

01:40:55.89

Steven Bagatourian

Because as you recall he colored our our favorite book thriller and ah he colored that thing on the wall behind me there and yeah, but but still but still you Richard Richard Ori should have been on that list. no question no question somewhere

01:40:58.63

cbderrick

Yeah, yeah, yeah, but but but but here's but here's the thing. Yeah I mean I mean look he's.

01:41:13.28

Steven Bagatourian

I don't want to say I don't want to say who I'd knock out but there's a couple people on that list I would easily knock out for Richard or.

01:41:16.70

cbderrick

I would knock out a lot um in ah in a heartbeat. Um, best cover artistryan bowing for animal man and 1 and woman in Dc the legend a dark like 15

01:41:28.11

Steven Bagatourian

Okay, Brian Brian Boen deserve he deserves that award almost every year. Yeah yeah.

01:41:33.55

cbderrick

Yeah, yeah, and he won it John Bolton for aliens predator. Okay, he's up. There's ah gun fabric for Hellboy or and Vertigo jam. Ah Alex Ross or Marvels okay Dave sim and um, yeah, gerhart for service.

01:41:40.76

Steven Bagatourian

Um, and gerhard.

01:41:50.79

cbderrick

They're not better than these Paul Smith that's insane that's insane no No no, no public keep in this line. No all right? I just yeah, got got got you got.

01:41:51.50

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, the the come not not for not for the covers I don't yeah I would agree.

01:42:00.85

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, the golden age clearly got screwed at the eisners. Ah it really got snub big time. Yeah, and I I will confirm though what you said Chris according to Wikipedia here.

01:42:12.45

cbderrick

Snubbed snubbed.

01:42:18.30

Steven Bagatourian

Ah, Jeff Johns credits James Robinson's work on the golden age and Paul Smith's and Richard orries. Ah for igniting his love for the characters in it and for his decision to accept writing duties on jsa in two thousand so there you go folks the golden age.

01:42:27.40

cbderrick

Um, yeah.

01:42:33.35

cbderrick

Um, yeah.

01:42:37.89

Steven Bagatourian

Without the golden age. You may not have had Jeff John's ascent to the stratosphere of ah comic book writerdom and he may never have taken over jsa sounds like he wouldn't have if not for the golden age. So this book while ah, you know? Well it may not have made. The biggest splash in kind of like a watchmen dark knight kind of way I think this was clearly ah a really influential book on probably a whole lot of people who did see the book and and it you know it made an impact just ah, you know we we don't always we don't always see that in the the more like ah.

01:43:06.66

cbderrick

For sure.

01:43:13.49

Steven Bagatourian

Traditional way culturally but it's it's like 1 of those things where there's the really incredible band that you know everyone is so influenced by and then you look at their their album sales and it's like they sold 5000 copies of their first album but meanwhile like everyone mentions them as an influence you know I think a book like this and. Certainly Paul Smith as an artist I think these kind of creators like their impact has felt you know far beyond what just what it might appear sometimes.

01:43:40.11

cbderrick

It was interesting I saw something on Twitter today where they someone was there. They were like name something good about this ah comic issue and it was the it and it was like young but issue one and. And what and what somebody said was without this book's success. There wouldn't be like the worldwide phenomena of walking dead.

01:44:08.94

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah, but.

01:44:11.77

cbderrick

Like that's shoot because that's the first image book that sold well and it kind of lost image and without image. You wouldn't have had walking dead.

01:44:16.40

Steven Bagatourian

Like that's true. That's true and if someone loves the walking dead. That's absolutely you know a good a good argument for young blood 1 you could also make the argument that. Ah. You know, a lot of the quirkier and weirder image books that are so completely far removed from like superheroes or even mainstream fiction like you know there's there's some other image books out there that young blood has opened the door for like I don't know like there's image books these days like head lopper or just you know, really. Comics that are way off the beaten path of mainstream superhero comics and you wouldn't have thought back in the day that young blood would lead to something like that and and I think that is a cool thing about what the image founders did is they at least created an opportunity where you know image. You know to.

01:44:52.80

cbderrick

No.

01:45:02.21

cbderrick

Well yeah, because if you if you think about it. Let's just say that book failed. You know.

01:45:06.83

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, Oh yeah, what happens then to creators creators' rights in comics and what happens to people you know the mainstream companies have all the power forever and say what you will about life Eld Macfarlane or any of those guys you know they all have big personalities. Or at least you know several of them have really huge personalities and they're controversial figures. So say what? you but will about them. But you actually need people who have big personalities and huge belief in themselves and outsized Egos and belief and all that. To actually make a leap like that you know because the people who are more like polite and affable and like friendly and are never going to ruffle any feathers. Well they're not the people who are going to gamble their future and their family's future on launching a company and going off and doing this crazy thing. So. It's like you kind of can't have it.

01:45:42.68

cbderrick

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:45:54.93

cbderrick

Um, right.

01:46:00.52

Steven Bagatourian

Both ways you're not going to get these visionary kind of business people taking this huge gamble and then have them also be like the friendliest like most like easy to get along with cats like that just it doesn't work out.

01:46:11.82

cbderrick

No I mean you know I remember on um on observations he was talking about how when they first started image like you know how he says something about I might have mentioned this before a podcast but he had mentioned that he created x force. Because he saw in his contract I get bonus money if I create characters and those characters appear in books and so he was like oh really so so like shatter star and all those people in Domino and and cable were all created. And he and he and he when he was doing the immunes. He killed me. He basically gutted that book so he could take advantage of a clause in his contract and he just created his own ideas and I think that Marvel was like oh well that contract well that clause has is coming out of the contract going forward after that.

01:47:06.23

Steven Bagatourian

I Because no one had ever taken advantage had ever taken advantage of it to that degree. Yeah.

01:47:07.29

cbderrick

Um, with.

01:47:11.33

cbderrick

Yeah to that degree. You know, no one had but but the thing is but see that just shows you like like again like Lyfeld's like like his personality and his ability kind of like to drive things and to be to a degree that's very entrepreneurial. In a way that most artists in all fields aren't you know, like in movies tv you know whatever it is most artists aren't that entrepreneur those guys who are getting like Andy Warhol someone like that you know or like a Steve Spielberg like those guys like oh yeah they're outliers they yeah yeah

01:47:34.17

Steven Bagatourian

Yep, oh.

01:47:42.58

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, but they but they're outliers. They're they're Hugh huge huge outliers yeah

01:47:49.29

cbderrick

You know because because you meet a lot of these I mean you meet most most people were an artist. They've got no business sense. You know like exactly exactly exactly.

01:47:53.46

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, we we know we we know these people Chris they're are friends you know? Yes, yes we we have many many artist friends many writer friends who have ah no.

01:48:04.86

cbderrick

Who who got no business sense at all and it's not. It's not as it's not a knock on you because you are focused on something else, but it's like but but but you know a lie felld a macfarlane you know these you know? Ah, ah, what's the guy's name and Bob Richardson over dark horse like those guys are like oh micro and michaelson.

01:48:19.48

Steven Bagatourian

Mike Mike Mike Mike Richardson

01:48:24.74

cbderrick

They're like oh oh oh you know this is what we can do to like to to facilitate art but also kind of like push there's money. There's money somewhere and we can be exploited not exploited but we can know how to like leverage it was this determined finance. It's called arbitrage.

01:48:37.97

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, right.

01:48:42.62

cbderrick

Where you see like ah you see a gap in something you oh I can make money there if I just push iting and push it and that's what you know I Mr these guys did that's it. There's you know? Yeah, you're right? So some people don't like that because to be that kind of you to be kind of aggressive to do that and then and do it successfully and.

01:48:45.70

Steven Bagatourian

Right.

01:48:56.25

Steven Bagatourian

Yes.

01:49:01.77

cbderrick

Ah, it which takes a little bit of a charm too to like ah to ah, knock off the edge of of that being too aggressive you not Arrogant or sometimes you are arrogant about it. You know, but you still you got to have some charm so that you're not offputting and it just it requires I mean that's how you get change and and these. And these commercialized art things. You know.

01:49:22.00

Steven Bagatourian

It's true. You're right, you need people with big personalities every generation whether it's Neil Adams in the 70 s and he's pushing for creators' rights and pushing for a union in comics pushing for health care pushing for Siegel and shuter to get paid and get pensions and.

01:49:26.67

cbderrick

Right.

01:49:38.16

Steven Bagatourian

Holding press conferences to humiliate Dc ah over the Siegel Shuster stuff like that takes a bigass personality to do all that and that's Neil Adams doing that in his generation at a time when he's you know he's one of the biggest artists in comics and he's taken advantage of his position to like.

01:49:48.16

cbderrick

Yeah, yeah.

01:49:55.90

Steven Bagatourian

Push push the medium in a good way and.

01:49:56.44

cbderrick

Right? That same thing world life felt like life out at that time like you know, like those those ah books that x exports book or something like that I mean like like like his his little 1 at at at Marvel was he said in this podcast like like like. You're so like five six million copies of some of those books. He's like those things are probably they'll probably like never be broken those records you know and I think that once once once you break a record like or set a record like that if you have any if you have any kind of ambition beyond just being on to be a great artist.

01:50:20.96

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

01:50:32.19

cbderrick

Then you want to like like like you're in that sweet spot of I can do this now you know like if Rob didn't if you waited two or three years you know this subsided after like if they launched Imus 2 three years later

01:50:38.50

Steven Bagatourian

Yep. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, no the window the window would have been gone and like you know with so many things in the arts like timing is everything and just having the you know.

01:50:48.78

cbderrick

If probably wouldn't have been the same thing you know? Yeah, so like.

01:50:58.23

Steven Bagatourian

Having the the gumption and like the the courage to take that leap in that moment you know it's like it's everything and like it's ah it's a huge talent I guess in its own way just to have a sense of timing.

01:51:11.45

cbderrick

Yeah.

01:51:13.27

Steven Bagatourian

And to know like when your moments are when to pick your moments and when to know you can like really push the envelope and kind of like break through versus when you need to hang back and just be patient and like you know wait and it's ah it's a tricky thing like I heard Ed Brubaker saying today. Just ah, you know he was interviewed on kfabe. Listened to a little bit of that and he was talking about how he waited over a year for Michael Lark to be available to be the artist for he and Greg Ruka on gotham central and how Dc was offering them different artists to draw gotham central but Ed Bru Baker was like nope. Nope nope we need Michael Lark to draw this book because him and ruca had such a specific vision for the book and they knew like the ordinary artist at Dc who had more of like some quote unquote Dc house style. It wasn't going to work and they needed Michael Lark so you know in that case it was a good thing. He waited a year and whatnot. But.

01:52:01.80

cbderrick

It's right.

01:52:06.71

Steven Bagatourian

But at that point Ed Brubaker didn't have to he wasn't in the spot that life elder macfarlane were in where they were trying to leverage a huge fan base he was trying to wait for the right creative option. You know in that in that situation and that's the thing is like if you're a creative person. There are times where you just you just have to kind of you have to pick your spot and you have to know.

01:52:15.30

cbderrick

Um, yeah.

01:52:26.19

Steven Bagatourian

What the important element is that you need and it's not always the same thing obviously.

01:52:30.44

cbderrick

What's interesting. You say that because or that story about Michael Locke because I can't think of any artist who draws that kind of like realism that you that you needed for gotham's. You know Gotham was at gotham central um, because I'm not drawing heroes and you know and everyone else is is is essentially known for drawing heroes and they've and they reached their pinnacle from drawing heroes.

01:52:47.40

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, how.

01:53:03.88

cbderrick

You know I like like maybe like a Sean Martinborough could have done it or something like that you know, but but I think at the time like he wasn't like the same guy that he is now you know or or he was like maybe even like ten years ago um but yeah I can't I mean but yeah cause. He did a book Michael Clark did a book scene of the crime I don't I don't remember who he did that with did yeah.

01:53:25.38

Steven Bagatourian

I yeah yeah, that was actually with brewbaker. Also I think I think he and bre like came and brewbaker did that originally and then maybe Lark got busy doing something else for a while and then brewbaker had to wait for him to follow him to to gotham central.

01:53:37.42

cbderrick

Um, oh what was that book. He did that. Um, we should talk on maybe a terminal city.

01:53:43.50

Steven Bagatourian

It oh yeah yeah, yeah, yeah with ah Dean Mater it's like that art deco kind of future retro future book. Yeah yeah, we should totally talk about that. That's a really like a fascinating book. Actually i.

01:53:50.60

cbderrick

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, like that weird kind of like it is. It's like it's it's like a 50 It's like a film noir future film noir thing you know.

01:54:02.38

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, and actually that would connect to another book that I wanted us to discuss too on the show which is prior to um, terminal city um, Dean Mater had done Mr. x ah at vortex comics which the the original arc was drawn by the Hernandez brothers.

01:54:16.65

cbderrick

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:54:22.15

Steven Bagatourian

And and then and then Seth took over and a couple of other artists. But Dean Mater was like kind of the I don't know the empressresario the creator slash writer he was kind of like the Carl Potts of Mr X like kind of the way Carl Potts had his weird credit on you know on alien legion.

01:54:34.21

cbderrick

Right.

01:54:40.66

Steven Bagatourian

Think Dean Mater was like the creator of Mr. x but yet he wasn't drawing it and I think at times he wasn't writing it or drawing it but he was the creator of it and then terminal city to me always kind of felt like a weird unofficial sequel to Mr. X.

01:54:54.58

cbderrick

Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:54:56.43

Steven Bagatourian

Because it was it was another retro future city. So anyways, those are both like I think interesting and at the time somewhat high profile indie kind of comics like Mr X at least was indie. Um, but there are also books that have have really been kind of lost to the sands of history. And again, you don't hear too many people talking about either 1 of those titles.

01:55:15.64

cbderrick

No, not at all, not all, but you know I mean I I think too many books that aren't you know again I think something about like the consolidation of comics that the marvel bankruptcy and this and all that sales to heroes heroes reborn kind of stuff. Like it kind of pushed everything to be like how do we leverage the most iconic properties that we have let's not do much business or put a lot of like marketing money behind stuff that is not um, ah. You know it's not is. It's not going to like have the most cultural impact I mean it's's I think that the vertigo is such an anomaly for what it was able to do because those books and the money and that and the freedom they had you know it always surprised me that Marvel never did anything like that. I mean they did with epic but post you know the consolidation of the bankruptcy the Ron permanent selling off kind of thing like in the 90 s the fact that they didn't revive epic as a line to do that creator own stuff was kind of like a I mean a huge creative misstep.

01:56:12.90

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

01:56:19.59

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah, yeah.

01:56:28.96

cbderrick

But I feel that it might have just been like you know they were like it was all bottom line We got to do money and we got it and we got to push.

01:56:31.27

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, it's it's weird. It is weird because Vertigo was so successful. But I think Vertigo I guess was so much the product of probably Karen Berger and then later Shelley Bond and like just the personalities of those people running it and their tastes and. Think at Marvel you know they had like their Marvel Max books and stuff but they never they never really pushed into territory. There was anywhere close to Vertigo. Really it was just yeah, it was just like a different culture at Marvel like they weren't looking to give like a creator like Neil Gaiman like a whole new property to develop at Marvel it's just like. It felt like I don't know just seemed like there wasn't like a space for that there the book the way like I think Karen Berger had to carve out that space at Dc um under under the auspices of Jeanette Khan giving her the the ability to do that. But I think at Marvel just something about the culture there.

01:57:23.56

cbderrick

well yeah well I mean um yeah I mean look I it's the culture is I mean like you get a sense of it in that there the 4 part heroes reborn thing that um observations where you get a sense of like that by by.

01:57:24.67

Steven Bagatourian

Like you're right? It's it was a missed opportunity but they just never did it. You're right.

01:57:43.00

cbderrick

Heroes people when they bought all those you know like with the comic like distribution thing and like it's like they brought on too much debt and and then to get out of that it was like we can't take a chance with anything like like. Everything we do has to make money and and they were like okay so what books are making us the most money x-men do 5 of those Spiderman do ten of those and pretty much everything else was kind of like knocked to the wayside cause Marvel had like a lot more. It felt it felt like Marvel had more like.

01:57:59.16

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah.

01:58:18.95

cbderrick

You know, like like Marvel 2 and 1 um and what if were books that were canceled in the wake of that and Marvel fanfare.

01:58:23.53

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah now and and you're right. There were quirkier Marvel books for sure pre-bankruptcy like certainly in the 80 s you would have Marvel putting out Marvel who pet a fucking weirdass miniseries like Dakota northprivateinvestigatorslashyouknowfashioniconliketherewerelike.

01:58:30.95

cbderrick

Like yeah. Like yeah, like yeah and they didn't did that. Yeah the thing with the new Universe. That little thing they did that new that you know but I feel like after that and I just like they.

01:58:42.40

Steven Bagatourian

Weird books. Yeah yeah.

01:58:52.89

cbderrick

And you hear about the way that the money and the editors were under siege when they gave likely fallot and Lee the chance to do those books and they just it was just like the the office politics makes you makes you realize that they wouldn't have been able to do anything like Vertigo despite.

01:59:10.73

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah, yeah.

01:59:12.92

cbderrick

It's it's obvious like well we did that first with epic um, and to me ah to me I was like you have the the builtin audience already if you were to relaunch epic and give one of these you know, just like you know because like every great british writer or artist they pulled for Vertigo. It's like.

01:59:30.66

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah, no.

01:59:31.23

cbderrick

Those us could have done an epic book. They you think gave him a shot. You know I mean there's I mean there's no reason that like invisibles couldn't have been epic. You know if if you wanted to do it. But you know just there's like just no, ah probably have the financial like wherewithal. So yeah.

01:59:35.62

Steven Bagatourian

No, you're totally right? You're you were totally right.

01:59:49.67

cbderrick

But that leads us to our last issue of golden age which we'll kind of like get through because this is mainly um this it's the us the unvent like this's like we mentioned the unveiling text tompson has got all the superheroes coming because there's a plot they because once they know that Textompson is.

02:00:08.49

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah.

02:00:08.78

cbderrick

The the ultrahumanite and and and and and ah and and and dunbar was Hitler. They all go. Okay, we can get at them get close to them if we just do if we do what he see. He wants us to come anyway to Dc and and unmask ourselves. Let's just go and do it. And they all go and they set up their plan and they they they meet at at at like at ah the capitol and that woman who was having sex with with sex with Teompin. She kind of breaks protocol. And just lets everybody know what the hell is going on like oh my god like here's the thing and she gets like her head knocked off by ah the robot man because because you you see her his hands like roll out in this big splash of blood and they never show her body. Never show the the what what happened to her and then it then the rest of the book goes and what what they is told that the brain power of Hitler was in Zen Dunbar is all out battle for the next for the rest of the book and it's a pretty cool battle. Um.

02:01:16.24

Steven Bagatourian

Yep.

02:01:20.30

cbderrick

It's just really like they're all getting their asses beat because he's supposedly un ah you know he can't be beat His only thing is he is invulnerable unless he's tired but he'll never get tired because he has super endurance and so it's like he. Pretty much like not able to be defeated and they're just everyone's fighting. You know like Tigris is fighting robot man and then the whole thing with the captain Triumph like that guy. He won't he's there to try to stay in the room when he loves and he won't touch the the Birthmark. So. So so captain tri never gets to come to life and then the guy with Johnny Thunder like Johnny Thunder you know like because he's kind of like a laughing stock when he realizes. He's been duped by Hitler and everything like that he says the lightning bolt. To fight off like fight iron man and the and the but but lead balls like no no no no no I know what's real and you're fucking up and and just and he loses a lighting bolt let he boat says I'm out peace and um, it's just fight fight fight you know like ah you know the Adam is fighting him and. You know and and and and dumbbar cannot be beat by anybody. He just seems unbeatable and then Paul Kirk shows up as just dressed in the Mayharney uniform to beat up. Ah ah, text textx thompson they have a really cool fight the real the the sad fight the cool fight. Is the guy who wants to be captain try if he wants to show off in front of the woman he loves that he can fight this robot man without being captain in Triumph and he gets killed. He can. It's a sad moment. It's a real sad moment. Um.

02:03:03.26

Steven Bagatourian

Very very sad.

02:03:11.69

cbderrick

He he like and Johnny Quick is trying to fight the guy he can't you know, defeat him. Um, and and ah Alan Scott goes he gets the green lantern ring. You know he shows up. Ah I mean yeah, this scene where the guy like jumps in a robot man like and they're they're in that water. And he gets retrocuted this really it's really it's it's really kind of a shocking moment and you just wonder what happened to the guy who's like the ghost like like what happens to the ghost you know is he it's he stays as ghosts.

02:03:35.50

Steven Bagatourian

V.

02:03:45.93

cbderrick

Ah, there's there's alllan scott you know I mean that fight me like like like those 4 panels or those 3 panels or Alan Scott is fighting. Um, ah ah Dunbar I mean I mean there's 3 So's 3 quick panels. But then when he like knocks his teeth out is' like you know he's.

02:04:00.30

Steven Bagatourian

Right? right.

02:04:05.30

cbderrick

You know he's tired at that point because he's been hurt like that. But that one page where he's like where Scott him are fighting and he's like his mouth is all broken and it's like the hitler guy. It's just I mean that's like pretty that's that's some great cartooning where he does that you know, um.

02:04:05.64

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

02:04:18.54

Steven Bagatourian

Yes, yeah, absolutely.

02:04:23.47

cbderrick

And you know and then there's the the thing with ah but there's be see then he but he defeats. Um, you know, just man Hunter Defeats text stops and he kills them but there's that part where where what's his name where dumbbar hits out Scott with a tree and that's it for him. You know he's done.

02:04:38.32

Steven Bagatourian

Oh yeah, that's right, you were you were talking about the wood. Um, yeah.

02:04:43.40

cbderrick

Yeah, he's Done. He's basically out of the fight because he's been like I mean he it with a tree like he has no powers and then what's really cool is that you know I Love this little moment where star man shows up and the little so and the Cosmic Rod gets broken and then. And and dumbbar thinks he's got everyone beat because he actually does every he does have everybody beat.

02:05:00.94

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah, I Love how the Cosmic Rod gets broken by like tes throwing a wheel like or a tire off of a truck off of a bus he threw like Star Man's Star Man's doing like some heavy superhero shit.

02:05:10.94

cbderrick

Yeah, um, yeah.

02:05:20.53

Steven Bagatourian

You know, prepare for cosmic retribution and he's holding the staff and text just breaks it with with like a tire. Yeah.

02:05:26.90

cbderrick

Yeah, it's awesome. It's just it's awesome. Kind of fight I mean you know and then right when that that new guy who never gets a name and he's just a yeah I know he's got some sort of superpower right? when he gets kicked in the nuts. Ah, with with a super kick and obviously out of it. Ah, that's when ah Liberty Bell stabs dunbar through the chest with the pieces of the cosmic rod and that's it.

02:05:57.10

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, that's great.

02:06:01.20

cbderrick

That's the that's the end of Hitler and and the whole the whole fight the whole kind of mystery men thing and then we jump ahead another five years six years and you know Johnny Quick is back with ah with ah he's.

02:06:19.52

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, he's got a. He's got a nice house looks like maybe a nice little place in Burbank with a pool.

02:06:19.62

cbderrick

I guess they're out in California they're in Los Angeles with like with Liberty Bell some place like that. Yeah I pull the back and he's up here. He's a writer. He's obviously doing like his documentaries and just the way this kind of like these last few pages of like.

02:06:37.22

Steven Bagatourian

Um, and love.

02:06:37.83

cbderrick

Trying to like um ah just to to recap it all is a really fun if not fun, but it's like a really smart way to wrap this up and it goes back to Johnny Quick like giving us the this the it's like he's doing a documentary again. You know what I love is this is this little.

02:06:42.15

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah, yeah, it is.

02:06:53.40

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

02:06:57.33

cbderrick

Page where the guy played Johnny Thunder he's like being a dick to some woman at a like as some Christmas thing is because he doesn't have the damn thunderball anymore and he's like now probably like the most morose person there was um.

02:07:03.41

Steven Bagatourian

Ah, yes, yeah, yeah.

02:07:13.54

Steven Bagatourian

Yep.

02:07:15.79

cbderrick

You know and then the final page is the introduction is the introduction of the silver range characters.

02:07:19.71

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, and that's like that's a nice little kind of way that everything sort of wraps up here with this story of the golden age is the full-page shot beautiful Paul Smith shot of all these classic silver age dc comics heroes and. Got captain comet and the challengers of the unknown the doom patrol adam strange and you know the flash aquaman silver age green lantern silver edge adam and over that you hear Johnnyqui's final voiceover and he says other heroes are coming forth. Leaping into the headlines with an almost monotonous regularity young heroes young faces, young powers and it's their turn their time for them a new age as fresh and clear and bright as sterling silver and boom. Yeah, we're out.

02:08:07.70

cbderrick

Yeah, that's a great yeah out. Ah um um I mean the the thing about the thing about um Johnny Quick's voiceover throughout the whole series is. There's kind of like a lyricism to it.

02:08:11.86

Steven Bagatourian

That's the silver age I mean.

02:08:19.50

Steven Bagatourian

Who.

02:08:26.32

cbderrick

That Paul Smith gives I mean that drop shit James Robinson gives that that character which kind of feels like it's kind of like his voice and his reverence for these these heroes these characters and stuff like that and it's a really? ah.

02:08:31.30

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah.

02:08:43.82

cbderrick

I kind of love the way he just like ah you like like like you can feel how much he loves this time period and these characters by the way that he talks about them in like that sense of like loss and and the yearning that the Johnny quit character has for There are times of Triumph and now this little coda at the end. Um, it's I mean that to me is like it's kind of a shame that he didn't get the like the nomination that year. Um, it's just kind of I mean it's kind of shame because it's so good.

02:09:11.59

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah I mean it it is and maybe if he did maybe he would have gone on to write the silver age as like his next. Ah his follow up. It seems almost like it's perfectly set up for the sequel here. You know.

02:09:24.74

cbderrick

Yeah, it totally is I mean I mean you know but I think I think that I think that there was a you know they stopped doing else worlds for a minute.

02:09:36.12

Steven Bagatourian

Her.

02:09:38.95

cbderrick

Think the next thing they did was I kind of liked this series too. They did um they did um, remember this little series one summer called tangent tangent publics. Yeah.

02:09:48.73

Steven Bagatourian

Oh yeah, like the tangent universe. Yeah yeah, yeah, wait and that there's tant wait there was tangent and there was also the amalgam universe was was that with those two separate initiatives I'm trying to remember.

02:09:55.71

cbderrick

Right? There's both. They did both um like okay, no, no okay yes so tangent was the Dc thing that was like.

02:10:03.36

Steven Bagatourian

Because like amalgam yeah I don't I so that was like the 2 companies crossing over characters and whatnot.

02:10:15.22

cbderrick

Like elsew worlds but that because I remember there's that 1 tangent green lantern that James Robinson did with Jace Williams and the amalgam was they did something with Marvel because I've I've never there was like.

02:10:26.79

Steven Bagatourian

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah because I remember actually there was an amalgam book that was drawn by Paul Smith and Paul Smith Drew an amalgam it was iron lantern and it was iron man meets green lantern and it was like a 1 you know 1 issue? Whatever but um, that's interesting.

02:10:35.59

cbderrick

yeah yeah yeah I mean the book I wrote the motion that was um I don't know who was the writer but carrieer nord did a book called Bruce Wayne agent of shield and I thought.

02:10:51.30

Steven Bagatourian

Oh okay.

02:10:54.77

cbderrick

And and and and I thought oh that would have been a cools ongoing series that would have been really cool. Um, but.

02:10:56.52

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no I could totally see that and oh well I'm sorry 1 other thing I just want to call out just looking at this very last page here I just noticed as we were talking. Did you see who the character is in the very top right. Who you can't quite see. You can't see his face but you can clearly see his body right? above adam strange there um it's the creeper Steve Steve did goes the creeper you just see his chest.

02:11:20.71

cbderrick

Oh yeah, it is. Yeah.

02:11:28.33

Steven Bagatourian

And a little bit of his tights and a little bit of like his creeper hair but he's clearly yellow skinned the creeper and and then on the other corner also not quite pictured animal man. Yeah animal man on the other side. So it's kind of funny, Nice little Easter eggs here on this last page. Um, yeah.

02:11:34.29

cbderrick

Animal man. Yeah.

02:11:42.56

cbderrick

Yeah, it's great. It's got John Jones like as the detective with the with the man Hunter Martian man the martian man hunter is like the yeah is the guy some doom patrol. yeah yeah I know it's pretty awesome.

02:11:47.50

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, oh yeah, that's that's his detective version underneath him. Yes, that's a great That's a great Martian Manton Martian Man Hunter looks awesome.

02:12:02.26

cbderrick

Supposedly like a really cool martian man hunter appearance in this month or the latest issue of the human target this month yeah I want to get that too. So everyone that is the golden age Paul Smith

02:12:09.13

Steven Bagatourian

Oh cool I got to catch up on that. Yeah.

02:12:20.50

cbderrick

James Robinson Richard Ori and John Costanza um I mean you know it's I ah, you know this final pay. This final book is cool I mean the final issue was cool because it's got that it's a gold cover. You know was file as the same kind of designed it a gold cover with like gold leaf. They used to do on stuff back then.

02:12:31.77

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah. Yeah.

02:12:40.12

cbderrick

Um, is you know you know it's I don't I still love this book I don't how many times I've read it probably like 5 or 6 times you know like over the the last twenty years it did

02:12:49.43

Steven Bagatourian

I Could see why you love it Man I could see why you love it. I'm going to go back and read this again myself in the future because it was a lot lot better than I remembered I think I just genuinely didn't appreciate this book as a kid when it came out and looking at it now I'm really glad that we kind of we did take a look at this because it's yeah, it's a really. Worthwhile book and God Damn is it beautiful. Just gorgeous.

02:13:12.42

cbderrick

It's beautiful. The storytelling's amazing. The the characterizations are cool I mean it. It. It kind of feels because it's so much like what they're not in their Hero Uniforms. It feels like a um. Like a pulp book of that era you like a doc savage or like a shadow or something like that or the spider it. You know what have he would have been cool doing a a doc savage. Yeah, he would have been.

02:13:28.78

Steven Bagatourian

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, it does like it feels like a doc like a doc savage or yep, yep.

02:13:40.81

Steven Bagatourian

Oh totally Paul Smith oh yeah he'd be perfect. Yeah, you know I'd be surprised if he hadn't done something like that because his style is so perfectly suited to that kind of a character I mean it's so perfectly suited to this book like just really clearly in his pocket like yeah it's amazing really really amazing um yeah I wouldn't mind looking at more paul smithth stuff too like some of the off the beaten path Paul Smith like if we ever do like a look at just some of his like Dr Strange or some of his other books that you know he's well known for aside from x-men.

02:14:13.22

cbderrick

His doctor his Dr. strange run is is one of the best Dr Strange Runs it's one of the best Mr Strange Runs

02:14:18.15

Steven Bagatourian

It's gorgeous, right? Yeah yeah, man like every time Paul Smith drew anybody it's just like every time it's like those became you know iconic versions of those characters.

02:14:26.54

cbderrick

Yeah, because I'm trying to think is you know I remember I told you I have that book that have that that the little the art book of people. You know im pretty sure that he did a ah Alice Scott for me in that little little little pinup sketch. Um.

02:14:36.90

Steven Bagatourian

Um, I'll cool.

02:14:46.80

cbderrick

You know he did a Dr Strange who did that Alan Scott maybe he did Alice Scott later on because I used to have the I remember I had somebody draw. Yeah, it was Alan Scott it was post Smith I had someone draw me art because I had ran out of I didn't have my sketchbook one time down there and I had them draw on like comic.

02:15:05.77

Steven Bagatourian

Um, yeah.

02:15:06.70

cbderrick

The backing boards had like 5 or sixty those is oh can you sketching this can you sketch on this and he like at Alan Scott from me but I don't know where that is and it might just be lost at this point. Um, yeah, yeah, it's yeah I mean you know I don't know I love to see.

02:15:14.94

Steven Bagatourian

Um, hope not.

02:15:23.52

cbderrick

The X minute run. He did the strange run is obviously his nexus stuff I You know what is I can't think of much else he did after this I know did leave with the chance. But I don't know why he's not working no art now.

02:15:35.23

Steven Bagatourian

I don't know either. There's guys like him and you know also like ah Michael Golden like guys from that era who are just some of the all-time greats and you know they just they haven't put out as much work as I would like you know, but honestly like the more that. You know you work in in kind of being a freelance person in in the creative world like you know I get it. It's like it's hard. It's hard to fucking balance balance your life with these massive projects sometimes and now I'm just more like appreciative for the work that we have gotten from these.

02:16:01.45

cbderrick

Is we are.

02:16:11.61

Steven Bagatourian

All time you know world-class talents people like your Paul Smiths your Michael Goldens like I'm just appreciative now for the the work we have gotten. But yeah, there's there's some more great work from you know, a lot of cats like that that I'm looking forward to us talking about.

02:16:22.55

cbderrick

Yeah, yeah, Michael Goldest he's Christ. What's the book. We want to talk about the novel did he did he do the number. Yeah.

02:16:27.18

Steven Bagatourian

Oh yeah, we dude we got to talk about the nom for sure. We should totally talk about the nom because that is just some of the most extraordinary work ever published by Marvel comics like golden's work on that is just like out of this world. Yeah, it's it's amazing.

02:16:37.70

cbderrick

Again, let's Marvel in the 80 s when they had money or they had freedom or freedom labor this yeah um, okay everyone thanks for listening to this week's episode of comics Roger brain. Um.

02:16:44.90

Steven Bagatourian

Amazing And maybe we will definitely talk about that. Yeah.

02:16:56.35

cbderrick

You can look at the show notes for some art that we talked about some of the pages in this try to do some links to some other Paul Smith stuff in case, you're too lazy to look him up on Google and ah.

02:17:06.67

Steven Bagatourian

Yes, absolutely and hey everybody out there if ah if you got ideas for books that Chris and I should be talking about from the 80 s or any other era please feel free to drop us an email. You know. We may or may not agree with you but we'd love to hear what y'all think we should talk about.

02:17:23.70

cbderrick

And there'll be email although we're not telling you what it is now because we haven't set it up yet. But but it'll be in the show notes. So check the show notes or check the website which will be which be linked in the show notes and we will definitely. You know we definitely look at all the reader mail.

02:17:39.66

Steven Bagatourian

Absolutely absolutely and the website the website will be up sooner rather than later by the time you hear this. It'll be up comics rot your brain Comicsrot your brain dot com all right. Thanks.

02:17:42.11

cbderrick

Or or the listener mail ormate read or me.

02:17:48.26

cbderrick

It'll be up. Yep everyone Ah good night.