00:00.00
cbderrick
Welcome back to comics Roch your brain I'm Chris Derek and Mike and we are your hosts of this podcast that talks about comics from the 80 s um.

00:05.14
Steven
And I'm Stephen baggtorian.

00:34.72
cbderrick
You know and we're both screenwriters ah professional screenwriters. Um, and we are just going to talk about some books that we love that have kind of not fought out a favor or anything like that but books that have that that they're just obscure and or their personal favorites of ours. And that's kind of what the ah theme mandate mission is of this podcast and today we're going to talk about a book by Don Mcgregor and Paul Galese called Saber you might not do this book.

01:39.40
Steven
Um, yeah.

01:52.46
cbderrick
Ah, but you should know this book. It's It's a really fascinating thing that came out in the ah was like this book was the for what did they say was ah so okay, so the thing but is book.

02:04.89
Steven
Ah, first for the like direct market like it was the None graphic album I think published for the direct market in comics in America think Mcgregor talked about it. Yeah.

02:34.58
cbderrick
Yeah, yeah, it came up was was not. It was None yeah or are you look? So so so so let's talk to the people about on what this book is about then we'll talk about the white None anniversary I reprint that they did an image.

02:43.60
Steven
Who.

03:12.60
cbderrick
Because there's interesting. Ah forward by by the writer creator Don Mcgregor that I think bears like a lot of it was fascinating. So ah, saber is created by da mcgregor and art by Paul Goasi is this here in this intro of the the book from the the reprint book from 1982 saber is the consummate hero the ultimate freedom fighter in a world gone mad when the story takes place the country has been devastated by a nuclear holocaust and. And the ruling powers led by the villainist, the villainous um overseer have all but gained control of the world and yet despite their prisons and concentration camps a few intrepid souls have escaped their cause and one has even dared to fight back. In this none issue he'll meet saber and learn why he fights back. You also meet the beautiful and dangerous melissayrem who joined Saber's cause and let's not forget the bad guys. There's the overseer none machine who deicates himself to reading the world of its last hero. And there's black star but a mercenary hired by the overseer to track siber down although a mercenary black star is a man of honor and he jots both physical and verbal with seber which provides an added dimension to ah to the battle as we said the art is by Paul Guasi who best known for his work on master kung fu and many other books. So that's the intro. Oh and this takes place to get this I love this the year 2018 versus is the distant future from 1970. It's what is.

06:39.48
Steven
The distant future.

06:58.84
cbderrick
40 years in the future when this was really written four years ago for us when we're reading this I think was the None thing I want to say is it was really this is it. It was weird just to read that date and and and and to know that we've passed it.

06:59.98
Steven
Yep.

07:26.10
Steven
Move.

07:35.54
cbderrick
But it reminds me of like when 2019 came along and that was the year that the playrunner was predicting was envisioning the future like these None people were they were creating these these books about the future like forty some years in the future and they just had the bleakest point of view. Of what was gonna happen. What I think is fascinating so that's the inch of the book and you know that is in the that that's in this book by um, the thing that came out by eclipse of volume None issue one in August of of 82 just oh just to be be clear. The book was lettered by Annette ah coeckki in colors by gnna a wine and and the and the logo was by Tom or Zahowski who's pretty famous. Ah this this is by I be some of his is earlier work. Um.

09:10.24
Steven
Yes, yeah.

09:32.96
cbderrick
So Steve before we get into the actual comic. Let's talk about Don Mcgregor's intro to the ah to the to the book. The the reprint thing that that the image put out.

09:49.56
Steven
Yeah, okay, that's a really great place to start because ah the intro is really something. It's a hell of a little essay written by Mr. Mcgregor here and also just to be clear. Ah so we're talking about the first 2 issues that. Eclipse put out of Saber which were published in 82 which were published in color. However, those None issues constitute a reprinting of the Saber graphic album which was published in black and white and came out in 78 also published by Eclipse. And that graphic album was the thing we were we were referring to previously as the none graphic novel really um or the direct market in America and I think I think it's Dean Mulaney or maybe it's Mcgregor I think he was in Dean Mulaney's piece in the comic where they talk about how.

11:16.80
cbderrick
Right? right? Did you.

11:38.38
Steven
They were happy that Marvel comics was taking inspiration from what they were doing and like I think it was like four years later that Marvel launched their line of graphic novels with the death of Captain Marvel Etc Etc so eclipse really were pioneers in the world of comics on so many levels in America. And Saber is actually a historical book of great importance in the american direct market. So that's just for the record. That's the graphic album those None issues in black and white and not for nothing but the paul galace art just looks especially stunning in black and white looking over that version of it like. The coloring's fine and looks good, but like the level of detailed and just nuance in the the ink work in black and white is like it's pretty breathtaking and I'm ah I'm a big galacy fan and his work of course looks unique and just one of a kind to say the least. Ah. Clearly with his sturanko inspiration and and there's like ah there's like a stiffness and an awkwardness to galese's work and like everyone kind of looks like they're made of plastic almost like there's just there's a real like deep weirdness to the way that galese draws but I love it and I find it really immersive. And like if you just kind of give in to galace's weird way of of drawing and designing characters and building a world. It's actually very consistent in what he's doing. But anyways I know we're supposed to be talking about the mcgregor essay but I'm just kind of like flipping through these pages and yeah I can't we talk.

14:39.58
cbderrick
No no, this is yeah I mean look and we'll talk about Paul's work surely I mean the the thing about Don's essay is he's writing this. Obviously this is what twenty two years ago he's writing this but he's got he's so up.

14:41.58
Steven
Lacey stuff is amazing. I'm excited to talk about all of it.

15:11.00
Steven
Um.

15:17.74
cbderrick
Set about the mark the way the comic market was when they first did saveor in 78 and he's got an argument about how the siuss don't know a god damn thing which is the refrain of every creative like like anywhere trying to do something that is not.

15:20.24
Steven
Um, yes.

15:57.12
cbderrick
So easily digestible. Um I mean and he's outraged. He's outraged and he and here is his book is being being being reprinted I think there's some ah I I don't know if there was additional saber work done by image like I'm not sure about that.

15:54.86
Steven
Um, it's true. He's he's outraged. He's very outraged.

16:24.40
Steven
I Don't think so we should double check that. But I don't think he mentions that maybe it might happen. But I don't think it ever did.

16:33.62
cbderrick
Um, different.

16:41.66
cbderrick
Yeah, so to to me though, let's me know that that maybe that reprint thing didn't sell as well as as he thought ah but that and there's an end and I some thoughts on that which we'll get to later but I think the most fascinating thing about Mcgregor's essay is his talk about how you have to really roll the dice as a creator if you want to make something that like means something that stands out and I mean to take ah to take a big swing.

17:34.94
Steven
Yeah.

17:50.54
cbderrick
You have I mean it's is there's financial ramifications that he talks about I mean I mean like I mean like like there's a sense you get that like you know him and his wife and daughter were skating on thin ice for a while I mean you I mean he's that yeah which I wish I think it's kind of fascinating.

18:05.86
Steven
Yes, yeah, talks about it. He talks about the sacrifices that his family had make.

18:29.64
cbderrick
Um, considering I mean look we've talked to us before you know nobody will gets paid a lot in comics unless you're like a Rob Lyeld and you kind of like hit the jackpot in some weird ways. A few people like that. Yeah maybe a burn or ah or ah, um, who's guy. Ah so other writer of ah. Mark Wade maybe somebody like that who's but they but they do a lot of work and and you and you have we have to realize that when this saber came out in 78 direct market was direct. Mark was nothing then you know because is he's talking about how this book is not goingnna it's it's I mean like he knew.

19:03.22
Steven
Sure.

19:47.42
cbderrick
That it was going to break ground and but the people who were bankrolling. It didn't I feel. Also there's a like when we did when we read that stuff about Dick Giardano in but back when he was like you know that that addendum we did to thriller.

20:12.46
Steven
Right? right.

20:22.82
cbderrick
And he was talking about how they were really trying to push up the direct market. It wasn't strong yet and that was like but that's 85 but he think so it was still like 6 years later they still don't have the direct market like is not is there but it's not maybe not it's not competing it's not

20:22.68
Steven
Um, yes.

20:35.72
Steven
Um, yeah.

20:49.14
Steven
It was it would though new it was so fresh know it was so fresh. You know like the direct market had just still been born in like the 70 s and was really kind of just just blooming in the 80 s but you're right about Mcgregor here in this essay. It's kind of funny.

21:01.40
cbderrick
Yeah.

21:22.54
Steven
When he talks about here at the beginning of the essay he says ah twenty years ago here was the common mantra you heard in the establishment halls of comic book companies comic book stores could not support a comic book period end of story. Those comic book shops were a small negligible percentage of the company's sales certainly not of consequence positively insignificant in terms of the successful sales of a title if you believed anything else. You were naive and so he's saying all this because they were. Selling this initial saber graphic novel exclusively through this market and so you know he's saying that all the suits basically thought this was like a suicide mission and foolish what eclipse was doing and like doomed to failure and Mcgregor. Clearly is like you know one of these creative types Chris like you're saying who's like got like an ornery kind of a spirit to him and he's like oh what I can't do this. You know fuck you I'm doing it. You know I'm really going to do it. We're going to make it work.

23:31.96
cbderrick
Well, what? Which yeah well here's the thing I can I mean so just so people who haven't read this. Don't know so saber is ah is a is a black man and the woman named a Melissa Cyen is he's not just a white woman. She's alonde woman and they have ah you know as a sexual affair like like like in the book I can guarantee you that when he's pitching this in 78. He's getting a lot of pushback. He's getting a lot of pushback.

24:29.72
Steven
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

24:45.76
cbderrick
Yeah, we got I push back in in in in in ah to like twenty years later too and in 98 you know? um, but it it was way more pronounced when the but so I feel like you know just I feel like he's setting himself up for a lot more. Ah ah, a lot more like roblox.

24:47.28
Steven
Um, we went.

25:23.60
cbderrick
But the way he's designed the character you know he's like what am I god I mean I'm um, it's interesting that he I just want to be so because most people might know this but they might not know this. But it's like ah you know the wahowskis had wanted will smith to be to be Neo you know and it feels interesting that sometimes people view.

25:19.20
Steven
Um, yeah.

26:01.16
cbderrick
Future stories someone who's fighting for the revolution. They want someone black to be like you know the tip of the spear for that I think it's kind of like like interesting. Um i' would say a trope but it's something that people are like considering you know is as if to say there's a.

26:09.82
Steven
Um.

26:33.98
cbderrick
Ah, and particularly in saber in this book when you you learn about his background like oh like ah his background his origin when he's a kid is priming him to be so like fuck you to authority. But I think it's kind of fascinating but I but I bet yeah but I think I think that Mcgregor.

26:56.78
Steven
Yes.

27:13.54
cbderrick
Like he's like I mean it's like like he's fighting a battle that must there must have been so hard and and and I don't know like how this book did saleswise it. It mean it obviously did strong enough saleswise for them to decide to to tear it down and then launch it. To start the series because because they wouldn't have done a series unless that graphic novel you know, like actually did well.

27:59.52
Steven
Right? No absolutely and Eclipse published the series for a number of issues. We should probably look that up so we can mention how many issues were published. Of course we're just going to be covering the none issues as we said today because these are some. Dense motherfuckers these two issues took some time to read. Ah.

28:46.68
cbderrick
So ah so I'm checking this thing and there's there's at least 14 issues. So this ran this ran the same I mean I'm also seeing same amount of issues as aztec ace which about I think we said ran 16 or something like that. Um, yeah, so yeah, so so.

28:51.22
Steven
Um, yes.

29:08.26
Steven
Something like that. Yeah.

29:23.82
cbderrick
So That's I guess kind of the setup for the book. Now we can get into the book and we can get into the graphic novel or the first two issues of um, the the series. So The actual kind of floppies that are sold I'm gonna say this off to rip This book is crazy. This book does. Like storytelling stuff that I don't I don't know if people I think's going to be hard for people but it's well worth it because of what this of what the story ultimately does. But it's so it it does what like I've seen you offline. Like it throws you into a story and it throws you into like um like if like if this is a movie. You'd be starting at at you be starting at the halfway point.

30:57.44
Steven
Oh yeah, easily easily you're in media rez as they say and he is not stopping to explain things like you're just kind of in it I mean I will say that he does allow for an awful lot of expository sort of lengthy dialogue. Between Saber and Melissa in that None issue where they're kind of talking out some stuff that you know feels a bit clunky in a lot of ways by today's sort of storytelling norms because it's so dense and it's these very long discussions about stuff but you know it's. Because we're already in the middle of ah of a story where clearly a ton of shit has happened and like you got to somehow communicate something about what's going on but it's an interesting decision because like I'm just looking here with Saber and Melissa walking in this none issue and. They just start having these this these very chunky conversations. Um, you know? Ah I see you want me to reflect the grimness of our situation. The overseer has decimated that little rub that little group of rebels near the ocean and brought the survivors here. It's grim all right. Don't try to hide the fact that their deaths touched you but this is all a ploy the overseer getting the fly to come to him. You shouldn't feel smug about this little harassment for a no harassment this time I'm going to free those people they do not deserve to have all their spontaneity all their lusts and quirks cut away under the overseer's psychosurgery. Yeah, well if I can get close to you with a solar condenser. They can get to you with weapons that are a lot less merciful so that gives you an idea of the dialogue. It's it's dense. It's not exactly naturalistic. Ah, but it's like.

34:14.60
cbderrick
Um, yeah, that's a lot. Yeah.

34:28.32
Steven
It's in a melodramatic form that like if you kind of give yourself over to it as a reader it ultimately kind of casts a spell and it does become rather immersive the more you get into it but I definitely don't want anyone to go into reading Saber thinking it's going to be like a Brian Michael bendis avengers comic full of snappy banter.

35:06.60
cbderrick
No, no, no, no, no like absolutely not I mean and and I think that's what's um yeah, you're right is I mean I would say maybe well here's a thing I let everyone know the None 2 pages is a splash is a splash page.

35:07.60
Steven
It is not that.

35:37.22
Steven
Um, yes.

35:45.92
cbderrick
This got that this got these. there's this there's 3 level 3 tiers and the on the dual paye spread and it kind of explains how the world collapsed and it's this weird thing where it's like where the panel the panels have like those. Um, ah, there's the equation symbol like there's the plus in the minus.

35:56.84
Steven
Um, yes.

36:12.50
Steven
Um, it's really clever. Yeah.

36:24.36
cbderrick
And the it's it's it's really wild and the division symbol which people don't use when they're trying you know it's really interesting. Um, it's really interesting like design of ah, it's kind of like the you know the preamble you get in any of these movies. Do you know like the thing in Mad Max where they show you about the world blowing up everything like that I mean they did. There's interesting job that he doesn't set this up but then he brings you in to Saber and you're right? and it's like I mean it's like like like like when they're walking and talking is definitely not like a movie it's it's it's more like a play. It's in in terms of like it's it's trying to like. Convey a lot of backstory and set mood and tell them what they're feeling they're they're like soliloquies you know, like like I used to used to try to wonder you know like what was the purpose of sayliloquees in Shakespeare you know and I and I just came to the rousation 1 time I was like oh.

38:02.16
Steven
M.

38:18.90
cbderrick
That's the thought balloons right? The so so siliququiyes are the thought balloons and it's like how do you get inside. Somebody's head to know what you're thinking because it's like oh you do a sililoquy and that's how it works on at least in the Shakespeare stuff now we've gotten away from that. But I feel like that's what he's doing like here in this book.

38:17.80
Steven
Um.

38:53.20
cbderrick
That's why it's interesting when you read it because you learn about people's because because because he mixes like you know, ah like plot and backstory and for momentum and like you know as well as someone's emotional state will all kind of happen in like. You know the same kind of like I I couple balloons ah like like in a few panels so he's doing a lot that's like he's jumped through a lot of hoops as a storyteller to get you to get to get you into what's happening and and they're talking about things that that happened off panel that you know that you didn't see that you're never going to See. And I think that's kind of like it's it's daring in a way and I think about like what what comics were like in 78 when this was coming out and I'm kind of like comics weren't this like um they weren't challenging to the reader like that then I thought that challenge something like that now. But they want that then either and I think that's kind of like a um I think is is testament into believing the audience is very smart and I think that's always kind of a battle that creators have that they're financiers or editors or have you like a battle was like. They're like the audience isn't smart so you got to dumb it down and the readers like no, no, no, the audience is smart. Audience is smart and there's that battle that you're always gonna have and you see it here and I feel like feel like if this book let's just say this was was is a 82 in his book comes out this book.

41:24.64
Steven
Um.

41:59.36
cbderrick
Could have come out through epic comics you know, but I feel like the guys at epic are still. There's kind of old heads some Marvel like Archie Goodwin and stuff like that. You know he's a great editor but he knows like look you gotta serve it up in a way.

41:57.80
Steven
Yeah, totally.

42:31.38
cbderrick
That people don't have to think too much. You know they just want able to read and get in and watch the art and be sucked in and I think that what he does a lot of this is is that he doesn't subordinate his storytelling to the art and I feel like he's lucky that he's got Paul Galace doing the art because because gallrichi's art is.

42:57.80
Steven
Yes.

43:10.24
cbderrick
There's something he does throughout the book and he I've noticed this in like in like a lot of his art is he'll do these kind of like like these panel tiers where where people where there'll be a background and it' be be divided into 4 framed 4 panels and the characters like move through each panel. But the background doesn't move so it kind of feels like it's the same image with your movie. It's like it's a really interesting way of showing a walk and talk and he does this in so much of his work. Um, like it's in master of kung fus and almost everything that his that I've read that it's just his style and and other people do it.

43:43.36
Steven
Um I.

44:12.58
Steven
Oh yeah I see I see a page right here where he's doing this with a saber and melitsa walking. And yeah, exactly what you're saying 3 panels with the same background. Yeah yeah, that is that is definitely ah a cool technique that i.

44:21.64
cbderrick
But not as much as he does you know with that statement. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, a.

44:45.64
Steven
Have seen other artists do for sure. But that's interesting that that's like a signature of Galacs I hadn't realized that. Yeah.

45:01.24
cbderrick
It's it's toe singer because because he like he's done this back in 78 you know and I've seen it in other books you know, ah you see every once in a while but but he uses I mean because he he must use it like 6 or 7 times in this little graphic novel.

45:22.44
Steven
Yeah, yeah.

45:30.80
cbderrick
You knows it's it's it's like it's like it's his. It's his signature of his and I kind of love it because it's like like again you talk about it's immersive or like he's not someone who's ever fucking around with the background. This is the background is kind of this tableau that he uses to like design what the scenes going to do and and it allows.

45:45.64
Steven
Um, right.

46:07.50
cbderrick
like like Mcgregor's like like story to be a little more a little more laconic at times you know, um, and ah yeah, it's it's it's it's crazy. It's crazy. You know, um, but so that's just talking about the so story is so Saber.

46:09.26
Steven
Um, good word. Yes, yeah, totally.

46:47.78
cbderrick
He's like he was part of like a rebel group at the coast and his camp got wholesale slaughtered by the overseer and those who happened to be survived were you know were taken into slavery captivity. And brought to the overseers compound which is a defunct amusement park I think I want to say.

47:36.60
Steven
It's an amusement park. Yeah, no, that's what it is and it's a very surreal aspect of the None issue is you realize that you're in this post apocalyptic world with these rebels Saber and Melissa wandering through this sort of like dead. You know ghost of an amusement park. And they're being watched on like closed circuit cameras by the overseer and like some bad guys were in a control room somewhere who are like able to view them and are kind of fucking with them and you know trying to figure out how to capture them It's a very surreal and strange first issue and. You know one of the bad guys. Um is like a None animal. Um, his name is ah grouse yeah grouse and it says here grouse resembles a rap scalion refugee from an old animated cartoon.

49:14.20
cbderrick
Grouse his name is grouse. Yeah.

49:24.60
Steven
The kind saber would view on dimensional cassettes in his younger days. Um, and grouse looks like a giant like like a Rat combined with like a maybe a rat in a cat. Um, and he's but he's wearing like an Ss uniform like he looks like. Some kind of like stormtrooper kind of military dude and he's smoking a cigar and and he's very violent. Ah so this is just part of the surreal spectacle that is saber Saber feels like pure comics to me in the sense that it's It's not something you can easily imagine existing in another medium.

50:37.90
cbderrick
Absolutely not absolutely not.

50:36.42
Steven
Like you know what? I mean like there's so much weirdness here that like this just feels like this is the kind of story that comic books are built to tell and like can do it so well particularly in the hands of just an extraordinary visual stylist like Paul Galacy who's just handling everything with a plum. And my god like his visuals are are they're fighting a battle for space on the page against Mcgregor's words because ah I think Mcgregor is somewhat legendary for being like a real purple prose kind of a writer and you see that in full bloom here like Mcgregor I think is a real. Like predecessor to someone like Alan Moore in the sense like that Mcgregor is doing so much in the prose that it really feels like a novel in places here and I think out of like american writers like he sort of feels like he's in a similar school in a way to Doug Mensch who we also read Aztec Ace from recently and there were similarly similarly wordy constructions on the page where you know again like you said these were guys who were not dumbing it down for the readers but they were mainstream writers mention Mcgregor who wrote. Primarily for the big 2 but then when they went off to do their indie shit like Aztec ace and Saber here. It was like the shackles were off and they were just going to go insane which is very much you know what these books feel like Saber I will say for me was a lot easier to follow. Than Aztec ace was I was not confused by Saber I was at times overwhelmed by the the crazy psychedelic spectacle of what was happening but I actually quite enjoyed Saber and although it was a dense and at times slow read. It was ultimately I agree with you quite rewarding I really. Enjoyed these two issues and I think it's one of those things about comics being as dense as they were and this is like a very extreme example and you can see some of the pages in our show notes but part of comics being as dense as they were back then it's like you might love it or hate it. But it did give the writer an opportunity and and the artist as well. To like really create this immersive environment that was casting a spell I would say because like you're just being forced to give the book so much more attention and time that like you kind of can't help but get sucked into this thing so much more than like the average comic today. Perhaps. Where you're just like flipping through it and it's just you know some snappy banter or whatever and not a lot of dense dialogue and you know I'm not saying this book would be for everyone but there is something really substantial about it in the sense that like both Mcgregor and galacy like they're leaving it all on the floor.

56:10.56
Steven
You know like they're not like they're not only they're not owning it it No, they're fucking pulling for it.

56:18.58
cbderrick
They' fucking like they're not playing around. They're not playing around. They're not you I mean look I mean like I said they're challenging the use. This isn't way fascinating what you said that Tet Tt Mcgregor's words are battling. Paul Lui's art for space on the page because that is absolutely true' absolutely I mean it's I mean I mean it's you know, reminded me of some of those pages we saw in like the ah the panner birds with the panner brothers thing with Grendel you know the Matt Wagner we just so much text and I feel like.

56:45.98
Steven
Yeah, yeah, look at some of these ages I mean it's just crazy thing.

57:12.38
Steven
Um, oh yeah, yeah, totally.

57:29.82
cbderrick
You know thing about comics now. Is you read them and the and they just kind of use there never is a joyable to me now because there's never I think about this now there's not enough story you know like I honestly like I I think a great. Ah ah ah I think the high point of this like.

57:40.40
Steven
Um, yeah, it's true.

58:08.80
cbderrick
You know this dense kind of comic structure. Ah that this of books that we've gone over is probably Alien legion. You know there's a lot of great. There's ah, there's ah like the balance they got of arts and the amount of text on the page you know and how much storys being told because they were telling so much story in Alien legion.

58:13.66
Steven
Yes.

58:47.78
cbderrick
Just like the guys doing here but it you also see this like it' psychedelic like like I'm gonna go back to this thing about the amusement park just think about this now so this is in 78 and and to get and this is why you're right about? How comics is only they can handle this because if you did this as a novel you couldn't get the. The bonker shit that goes on in this like ah you could describe it but it wouldn't be the same and this interesting about Paul Galicio so he's drawing like these these mercenaries out in like you know the wasteland kind of this mad max type of thing and they get into this thing.

59:20.32
Steven
Um, exactly.

01:00:00.90
cbderrick
But then when they get into the amusement park they're doing that see you't a part where they're like dancing in like None century dress and it's like dude but a thing is he drawing all that stuff. It's so like it's so um, it's so it's the detail is so high in that you're like oh he's not skimping.

01:00:06.24
Steven
Um.

01:00:39.86
cbderrick
Absolutely anywhere and when they and when they get to that pirate ship later on again like he's not skipping and today's artists I think would skip with that or they would shoot it. They'd frame it in ways that it was more close ups you know and everything like that if it's almost relate to way television is now where it's like. And movies are just so many clips. So many cu ups and not enough like wide shots that are showing you so much of the world and why shots are harder on artists to do because they got to draw you know this shit us team but with with the with the goisey panel thing like like those backgrounds are so expertly done like they could be still lifes.

01:01:14.96
Steven
Um, yup.

01:01:45.12
Steven
Not not.

01:01:53.60
cbderrick
There's so there's so much work in there in detail and that he's doing up art on it and fights and people moving and all this text. It's set. It's yeah, you're right about like like how much that do you sort of bring you in to the road and put that storyteller spell on you in a way. That I don't think comics do today anymore and and I feel like maybe it's just like the way that movies are on Tv is that people don't like density you know and and and density is is not a bad word in in entertainment.

01:02:41.50
Steven
Right.

01:03:02.92
cbderrick
Because it's like hey get into the story and but see and the the reason why I feel like most people who are in charge of of so of say giving somebody The green light is is they who don't like density not the audience because as a show like game of thrones.

01:03:22.94
Steven
For whom right. Over.

01:03:41.12
cbderrick
Was super dense and and with popular shit and a show like the expanse is super dense and was popular as shit you know and it's and and the upcoming thing with the lord of the rings is gonna be like super dense and I mean look I could. Couldn't say this on on a whole bunch of previous episodes but like on star trek like like star trek is a super dense universe you know I mean we're up acard you know and we had characters from Voyager and from d space nine so we had to be able to deal with. All None seasons of next generation None or None seasons of of voyager None or None seasons of of deep space None all that was at our disposal and that we had to respect so that's like you know so none episodes of television that are possible for us to have to kind of navigate.

01:05:10.80
Steven
When. Wow.

01:05:34.84
cbderrick
To tell our story and that and and I remember part of what I was doing when I was writing like some of the outlines or for for when we were doing the third season which has't air yet is that my boss was like can you give him? can you write a paragraph at the top of the document. That summarizes. What's happening and to sort bring the executives up to speed as to where we are because they'll be fucking lost if they start reading this outline and they don't know and and they have no who these characters are because because we're bringing back people from before they're like who are these people and um and so.

01:06:13.16
Steven
Sure it.

01:06:49.10
cbderrick
And but but that I again I feel like is to be your comics because you can do these little catchups. You can do these little recaps. You know like there's no shortage of doing a flashback in comics like comics love doing flashbacks and people hate that in movies and Tv but it's so integral to. How you can tell a story in comics because particularly like when they do like the origin of Saber like in issue 2 of this the second half of the graphic novel when it's like you you I mean he's getting his memory wiped out and just going back and seeing stuff from his life and you're just like oh that's kind of fascinating like how like how he grew up. You know. But think I want to say about the the that's not say about the um, um, the music park stillness is 78 it's like Vegas it's it's like Caesar's palace like you know, just like this. It's this massive kind of like this. You can just comes like if you go to seees this palace and go to like the to the form shop area.

01:08:34.92
Steven
And.

01:08:44.10
cbderrick
Like the you know learning has got like ah it changes like daytime and night and there's clouds and shit it so all kind of programmed in the lighting thing and um I was like that's what he they doing that in this book and is predating what they? what? they even thought about doing and in Vegas about None or probably 1520 years you know um and that fifteen years. But at least None ears and ah I thought that was kind of fascinating because it's it's for a comic guy to do this and this is a dead in music park I mean I don't remember what westor was like.

01:09:26.54
Steven
Um, yeah.

01:09:52.84
cbderrick
Maybe like roller ballll I didn't think rollball do that it's it's it's interesting. It's really interesting. What what these guys were creating on that level of like here's my world here's how fucking crazy it is I'm not going to flinch with anything and and Paul guasi I mean fuck like.

01:10:21.66
Steven
I Think he's like pretty young I think he's I think he's still fairly a fairly young man and this is like this feels like the work of a young artist who just has a ton of fucking energy and devotion to what he's doing because yeah, this is extremely time intensive look and work.

01:10:27.20
cbderrick
Um, but how odious when he's doing this book. Do you know.

01:11:00.42
Steven
Um, Galacy in 78 let's see how old he would have been Paul lacy. Um, yeah, he's boy he was born in 53 so he was what so that's what 25

01:11:26.76
cbderrick
It's funny. He'd be like 50 now his here. 25 wow Wow

01:11:39.44
Steven
But yeah, he was a young man I mean it's is really extraordinary, impressive work for a 25 year old artist I mean yeah, this is like it's amazing. I mean it's very much kind of steeped in the Strano influence but the way that Glacie draws has this like really just. Bizarre rigidity to it and all the characters feel very like just very uniquely posed and I want to say stiff. But I don't mean it as like ah as a pejorative term. It's just part of the way galesi draws people and they they have like very odd poses.

01:12:23.70
cbderrick
Contribut to it and all the characters to get there.

01:12:39.96
cbderrick
Leave claim and I want to say stiff gonna be next like that as the join term. It's just hard points to draw people.

01:12:56.90
Steven
And just interesting ways of moving. But it's very consistent like his universe and the way he draws is just consistently odd looking. But I actually love it I'm a big fan of Glae's work.

01:13:20.42
cbderrick
well well it well yeah I mean I mean you know I like ah we I might we might say this before but another podcast but it's like None thing I saw him do was on master kung fu and and and for his.

01:13:38.50
Steven
Sure.

01:13:52.80
cbderrick
You know, like you said like that stiff style of drawing that he does and fighting and like the snapshot of action that he gets is almost like like like you don't want that for a Kung fu book you know because it feels but he made it work. You know it was really fascinating the way he made it work I mean is I mean think about his work.

01:14:07.26
Steven
Um, yeah.

01:14:31.88
cbderrick
That it's ah you know you say sturico infos but I remember there's a book called like how to draw cover like how to draw a comics of the Marvel way was looking at the way that ah Jack Kirby drew

01:14:43.82
Steven
Right? yep.

01:15:02.90
cbderrick
and Jack Kirby and I think like is it maybe saab busema or Jabu Samma like did the art in that like like how some yeah and it's like but he's talking about there's certain kind of like if you go to do action and someone's like like you know like if someone's throwing a punch right? There's the full cockback.

01:15:03.70
Steven
I think boost them. Ah John John boost emma

01:15:42.54
cbderrick
And there's this you know and you can go all the way through the moment to to the punch you know and it's like in Kirby's and besimmer and the Marvel way is hey like get that arm all the way cog back in the 1 panel and the next panel is like the complete follow through and the guy's head is all night by stage. You can kind of feel that movement.

01:16:16.24
Steven
Right.

01:16:22.12
cbderrick
From panel to panel and there's and and gal doesn't do any of that like he totally like has like he's never read that book. It's almost like he's not read a moral comic except for like Dr Strange and and and and fucking nick fury because he's the damn like you said is that there's just a rank influence because it's so much like what.

01:16:30.88
Steven
Um, ah.

01:16:58.68
cbderrick
Starrano was doing in the in those Nick Fery books it's it's um, um and I mean it feels like that I think that pound design thing where you walk across the background I think starrano did that too now that I think about it but not nearly as much as as what kuwai does.

01:17:23.58
Steven
Right.

01:17:32.14
cbderrick
And you write I mean there's that really famous shot like in here. He's like it's a low angle shot and he's putting the pistol up in the air. It's like ah I mean I mean that's like so quintessential Paul gallei art that because I've seen him do that front that pose on on like I think that's the I think this the it's like that's that's a nick feary cover. Something like that in ah or reprint of nick fury that I remember and um, um, I'm like oh this guy is like assistant of shit like his art like it's interesting that his art really hasn't evolved in maybe like 3040 years but not that's not a bad thing is but but but he's like.

01:18:10.74
Steven
Um, and.

01:18:43.88
Steven
Um, yeah.

01:18:49.22
cbderrick
He's pared it down like he doesn't do the same amount of detail. He doesn't need to because he knows I think one of the things happens when you when you get better as an artist is you go? Oh I can do with 1 line what I used to do with 10 you know and and you realize at the more oh like there's that 1 perfect line I got.

01:19:06.82
Steven
Yeah, yeah, totally.

01:19:26.24
cbderrick
Just the you know this I'm gonna put down the ink it. It's gonna be this and that's what happens with like just practice and practice and practice and and gal gla. He does that fantastic and I mean he showed it here now put the but business work. Even I I cost some I remember screen some bit of his like I don't know the lasting me 10 years and it's still.

01:19:58.12
Steven
Oh I think you were reading didn't you say you were reading 6 from sirius a while ago. Yeah, okay yeah I remember that's more more classic. The lazy.

01:20:04.20
cbderrick
The same quality. You know. Yeah, I'm still reading it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it's its it's the this around the same time period. Well but that's like like 84 So it's yeah so but I 30 then but his artist still the same. You know like that this.

01:20:29.34
Steven
Um, yeah, a little little later. Um, yeah.

01:20:51.82
cbderrick
This dick these weird facial constructions like he's someone who I feel like um, he does reference for background but not for people.

01:21:02.60
Steven
Um, yeah I don't think he does for people either. You're right? They look very distinctly just kind of of a galaccy mold and I would be very surprised if he used photo ref for people I don't think he does um I will say that Don Mcgregor does not make things easy for Paul golacy here like some of the stuff that's being described here particularly at the climax of issue 2 just seems like a nightmare for an artist if you get this script and there's a ton of characters who are on horseback and like suddenly like you know. I think it's well- known that horses are one of like the most difficult things for artists to be asked to draw in motion. They're just a huge bitch to draw credibly and then you've got like a a train you've got like yeah a monorail like you've got a giant train crash crashing with like some horses and like.

01:22:34.12
cbderrick
Take expect to drink. Oh yeah, oh yeah I mean I mean but like.

01:22:50.92
Steven
You know a huge gun battle and and like a bunch of characters like just there's so much crazy shit going on here at the end and as this wild battle you know with none of characters plays out I'm looking at a panel here where where it looks like there's like None or 20 people fighting our main characters on horseback here. I mean galace is working hard for his money here and he's selling this stuff credibly, but it just looks like an enormous amount of work and time and effort went into these pages and yeah and they're terrific when you're right that his style was super fully formed like you know, of course it gets you know, refined over the years but this is clearly identifiable. As the work of uniquely Paul Paul Galace and he's only 25 years old and that's pretty remarkable to have such a fully formed signature style that is you know this accomplished at such a relatively young age. Yeah, it's really really stunning work.

01:24:43.64
cbderrick
Yeah, yeah I mean the the thing about his work is that um I mean but tell about the Climax I Think what's interesting about you look. There's a guy I Forget his name with some artist these some German guys. It's like clay not not clay but it's it's clear. Maybe. I don't know but like but he was drawing horses and centaurs and you're right that it like it is the hardest thing to draw because because their muscles are like they're always on display. You know with horses you know like the the chest muscle the lay.

01:25:32.60
Steven
Um, yeah, um, yep.

01:26:01.30
cbderrick
The big as ths you know if you if if if you make a move. They're going to look wrong and the bone structure in the leg like with the ah like the ankle like all that is so hard to do to sell it and there's not a frame in there where or drawing or where the horses don't look real.

01:26:22.54
Steven
Yep.

01:26:29.40
Steven
Um, right.

01:26:38.22
cbderrick
And you right I mean there's there's a cup like on that there's that 1 thing right before they fall onto the train track where I feel like that page where he's like hanging and he pulls over seeer off like feel like there's like 2 panels missing in there like you didn't have enough space to tell all that story like on that because he's.

01:26:43.30
Steven
Um. Um, yes, um.

01:27:14.80
cbderrick
Because because you see how he's like knocked down this you know he's hanging from the he's hanging off the wedge you know, but I'm kind of like kind of like how did that happen like what did he he was like when they get on the wedge like that. But just that little moment till they fall off the thing falling down like I felt like he I felt like he he didn't know how to do that page.

01:27:17.60
Steven
Um, yeah, yeah.

01:27:47.94
Steven
This is in an issue in issue 2 Okay I'm I'm looking for it.

01:27:53.74
cbderrick
Just that page in terms of issue 2 maybe like maybe like page None or None or something like that. It's right near at the end. Maybe it's fifteen because it's closerer but you but you but you see where it's like and see if I can find it and the thing I was looking at but you see where you but you but you see but in some. 1 of those things where you're like oh what ahs see's not page. Ah I think it's page None me I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, okay, yeah, page None issue to you right.

01:28:43.38
Steven
Page 14 of issue 2 Okay cool I'm gonna I'm gonna look at okay.

01:29:04.20
cbderrick
So at the top. It's like the overseering him or fighting an oversteer is like slicing him across the chest like with his sword. Oh by the way that's something I think is fascinating about this and it's something that makes sense right? like there's nuclear holocaust. So so the weapons are either some energy weapons or they're swords.

01:29:32.16
Steven
In.

01:29:41.68
cbderrick
And because you're like oh yeah, they're not going to have guns because guns but there are guns like a few bullet guns but Bullets would be so rare because there's no company to make them you know and gun and there's no one's going to refine gunpowder that is kind of like what the fuck is going on here. You know it's.

01:29:46.10
Steven
By. Um, right.

01:30:15.98
cbderrick
It's pretty. It's interesting. So right? So so so if you look here like on page 14 Ah you know like they're fighting. He's he's going up those stairs. He's hearing me to go outside. You know like you know, like like their blades like clash together then then overseer foot sweeps them right in in the next panel.

01:30:43.68
Steven
Um, oh yeah, yeah.

01:30:55.72
cbderrick
And next panel he's just on the ground reason for a sword. It's being so is being stepped on right then the next panel he's hanging off a ledge you know? yeah and I'm I'm kind of like oh like lost like you missed a panel where his like jaw got kicked maybe and he rolled off the edge.

01:30:56.58
Steven
Um, right? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, oh you're right? Yeah, that is weird.

01:31:25.80
Steven
Um, yeah.

01:31:34.96
cbderrick
It feels like just that because then it's like you know because any he grabs is you know like like he's trying to get his footstep down by the overseer. He hiss hand stepped on. He grabs his foot and then they fall and then but that page and they're falling is a great panel like those next week panel like you I'm saying if somebody just 1 thing's missing there.

01:31:55.12
Steven
Yeah, yeah, you're right right? It does look like there's a missing moment there between like ah what is that panel five and six yeah because when he when it suddenly says he hangs from the edge of the rampart. Yeah, you're like wait. What like that's not at all what was happening in the previous panel. So you're right? that is weird that is a. Ah, weird little skip Well you know things where you think to be me with headlines.

01:32:45.14
cbderrick
Yeah, but I but I think but but I but well no but I but but but but I bring that up not not because I'm um I might trying to point out a mistake it is but I feel like it goes back to what we were saying before but like how much story how much story is is Mcgregor telling.

01:33:13.38
Steven
Yeah.

01:33:20.52
cbderrick
And I feel like okay I got to tell this in like 44 pages because that's all I can do and because ah eventually we we might split up into being actual comic. You know like like floppies and it's like I feel like that he thought me with like I don't know how to tell the like how do we tell this story. We We have to find way to condense some action somewhere in a way there just keep over some action isn then the rest of it all becomes like like you said this wild stuff with the horses and the monorail and just like it just it. It becomes one of these it becomes like this like it becomes like like a 90 s action film.

01:33:55.44
Steven
Um, yeah. Um, that.

01:34:28.64
cbderrick
Type of end. You know we're just really off the chain you know? um, but I but but you know what? especially the as much of the action is is is is really interesting. Um, does you know what? there's that sex scene in issue one you know.

01:34:51.16
Steven
Um, who.

01:35:02.54
cbderrick
Think what's fascinating but that sex scene is you know these are you know these are 2 adults and and Melissa Syron who's like a test 2 baby. She said there's like that mo again, they're having this soliloquy where they're talking about.

01:35:07.84
Steven
Right.

01:35:36.74
cbderrick
They're both a little nervous about what it means to be naked in front of each other and I thought that was kind of interesting kind of take for that for him to take like in this book you know like oh like this becomes such a ah quiet story for.

01:35:39.00
Steven
Right.

01:36:15.88
cbderrick
When they're like like walking across the amusement park and it gets so much into their this intimate type of detail this intimate kind of like fear they might both have of like you know I don't really get to like hang out with you and flirt with you. It's just like. I Mean like you know I'm saying like like like the relationship is kind of is. It's kind of ah shotgun together because of the because of the violence that happens and then she finds a way to make it feel like you know I'm like it's it's tender is what it is and I found that to be very.

01:37:12.34
Steven
Um, yeah, yeah, you're right.

01:37:26.20
cbderrick
Um, it was unexpected to you know, like like in this book you know because the book because the book is so rough in terms of like the way it treats humanity throughout. You know, just like God Damn you know like I mean like the scene where where they're raping her later in issue two where it's like or is it's It's not.

01:37:32.64
Steven
From that.

01:37:47.68
Steven
Oh my god oh Jesus yeah, yeah, it's it's ah it's a really brutal scene. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's actually a.

01:38:02.86
cbderrick
Well, they're about to rape her. They don't get there but they're about to rape her. Um I think the craziest thing about that is there that like walking Skeleton I was like what the hell this like what what is that.

01:38:21.76
Steven
Elleton tried to take trying to take advantage of her and like yeah it's um, it's some pretty pretty bizarre and disturbing stuff going on in that sequence for sure that is not a sequence. You would be likely to see in ah in a comic book these days.

01:38:52.94
cbderrick
You probably wouldn't sit in a comic book back then either it was so rare to but then again you know like they would use sexual violence I think um, ah just like they would do in everything else at the time of the eight seventy s eighty s particularly the 70 s like like all those horror films like I spit on your grave and shit like that I think that the sexual violence was used a lot more in storytelling. Um, yeah, and and then now like now people like complain about it.

01:39:38.32
Steven
Yeah, it was definitely more of a trope for sure that point.

01:40:04.40
cbderrick
Because it's like it's triggering to people but I feel like you know I mean is it a trope is it Not I mean it's such a. It's such an integral part of our ah existence you know our so our like like our sexual interactions that you can't help but not. Is not being used like in some exploitive way you know like I'm watching that show took your vice on Spiel max right now and just got a second season renewed So that's why I'm watching the rest of it because I I didn't want to watch the rest of it when I felt there wasn't gonna be There wasn't gonna be None season. But.

01:40:45.94
Steven
15

01:41:19.76
cbderrick
There's this, there's this moment where this woman is being sexually blackmailed and you know this guy just wants to like I mean he's come to find her like she's like a a criminal. She stole some money and all this kind of stuff and she just and and he tries to pay and she's like here's the money I'm paying you twice where they paid you to find me.

01:41:32.62
Steven
Um, man.

01:41:56.94
cbderrick
Back off and he's like I don't want your money he and she's like what do you want and he is like I want you to come over here tomorrow you know shower and in a nice dress and it's like she's like get the fuck out of here. You're like oh he's trying to like you know it's like again, there's sexualized violence and I'm like it's not.

01:41:55.18
Steven
Well m.

01:42:36.38
cbderrick
Ah, in your face but you know that's what's happening like and I just it's interesting to see the way that Mcgregor is able to mix it in this with this really great tender moment in issue one and then like some of because the the None person to attack her but Melissa Siren in issue 2

01:42:40.80
Steven
Right.

01:43:13.44
cbderrick
Is the guy grouse. You know the the the ah um, ah yeah, yeah, yeah, he's like looking at her neck and like sreezing her. It's just like you know what? the fuck is this man. It's it's pretty crazy like you said it' psychedelic is how you got to describe this.

01:43:09.84
Steven
Um, yeah enough animal hybrid.

01:43:33.76
Steven
Um, yeah yeah I mean yeah when you've got ah skeletons like like Skele evil evil skeleton men sexually attacking people and None cat rat hybrids. Also.

01:43:51.64
cbderrick
How you gonna describe this.

01:44:13.68
Steven
Like it's um, there's a lot going on. We haven't even mentioned the fact that the the main villain the overseer spends the whole damn story dressed like ah in a roman gladiatorial sort of a outfit like is that how you would describe that Chris yeah, yeah and he also happens to have a face that is like.

01:44:44.20
cbderrick
See it like yes for sure for sure. Yeah, see.

01:44:53.62
Steven
Half skull. It looks like behind his mask and atop his golden head. He's got some kind of like ah like a I don't know like a little sculpture of an iguana or like some sort of like lizard creature on top of his helmet I mean. There's a lot going on a lot of visual interest here. Um, and there's like you know people with like cybernetic sort of like machine robot parts running around. It's a wild future in the in the crazy world of 2018 Chris.

01:45:57.88
cbderrick
Yeah, well well I So the overseer this I know what I didn't read I didn't reread this panel or but it's said okay never one his true of his face right? his face. The part of his face is that's covered by the helmet is supposedly a computer right? This is like a computer brain right? They said that earlier on but then then someone said later on he's already Dead. He's like a zombie they were. They were saying some um, let me see what it was It was somewhere in like.

01:46:32.82
Steven
Um, what that is okay I might have missed that.

01:47:12.98
cbderrick
Issue one there was so me see where this is I couldn't understand this and I was like I was like what are you talking about? this man is None dead um see he can be new individuals of pos or red tape programming once well capture man.

01:47:21.64
Steven
Um.

01:47:48.42
cbderrick
Fixing my life. How's you little porto but this so best paged 11 I think he might be on that's I mean like all the 7 they're walking into the little garden where like when when Saber and and and and ah and Melissa like that's such a.

01:48:11.66
Steven
Yeah.

01:48:22.62
cbderrick
It's such a. It's such a a weird kind of like like interlude. Oh yeah, okay here it here is it's on page 13 right page 13 yeah pace it says okay, okay, you know like they get the screen from ah the overseer and this guy says and 1 of his technician says.

01:48:21.74
Steven
Um, and it's like right? let's near the beginning. Yeah.

01:48:59.10
cbderrick
That guy wears me out. He let his body die right? But then he keep but then the medics keep his mind alive so he can feel what it's like when your body decays and so ah, you know because because because when you see the oversee like his face.

01:49:12.16
Steven
Um, oh that's right? Yes, yeah, that is really creepy.

01:49:37.40
cbderrick
Like he's looking like his face looks like it's like you can see part of his jaw eye like his nose and is like is you know it's It's almost like a skull beneath there. You know it's It's really it's this crazy like ah you know this reminds you have now I'm looking at this? um.

01:49:45.40
Steven
Um, death.

01:50:09.50
Steven
Oh yeah.

01:50:15.44
cbderrick
The warriors I don't don't know why this remind you the maybe it's the way that he's drawing like the way he's drawing savor at the bottom of this page on page None with him and melisa are walking across climbing down I mean what I love about this is just like the the like the world decay. But there's nothing more interesting to me than like the decayed world. Um, and and then they draw it with such detail because he like really draws the detail and then they go and like meet those mermaids and I can't I mean again is is is that like it's so why? because like again he has that kind of like.

01:51:09.50
Steven
Ah, this is just so wild.

01:51:30.10
cbderrick
Um, doing that they're in this future where they've like learned how to create you know like when they call him animatronics right? like he says that because because later on when when like when grouse is about to rape. Um, or he's in the middle of sexually assaulting like Melissa.

01:51:41.30
Steven
Um, yeah, yeah.

01:52:04.32
cbderrick
She grabs that whip from him and like smacks him across the neck and his head pops off. He's just a robot you know and I was just like I was like what is going on here.

01:52:09.24
Steven
Right? That surprised a fuck out of me. Yeah I was like wait a second The the cat Rat is a robot like that shocked me I was like what is what is happening in this world. Yeah, very very bizarre and we have you know Mermaids as well.

01:52:42.72
cbderrick
Um, yeah.

01:52:43.78
Steven
Ah, as part of ah, you know what? these what these bad guys have done like here. They talk about the mermaids here when they come across them and I think Saber says look at them aren't they beautiful ill I'll wager those original animatronics specialists who devised mermaids for merriment never realized. That their scion would animate creatures like grouse. It must make black star sick to have to work with conscienceless sadists like grouse. They must pay him pretty goddamn well to put up with it. Saber reflects see this is so much like reading a novel in places that like. These these word balloons I mean like the text boxes are just they're just jammed from top to bottom with this text. Ah yeah, it's it's it's a lot.

01:54:14.36
cbderrick
Yeah, it's a lot It's it's mean it's it something that they you know you know I I think about it. It's like this right? It's it's like these I want to say I want to say it's ah ah, it's a. It's a reaction to image comics those early image comics when Liefeld and Macfarlane and Jim Lee these artists were you know I guess as Brandon Choi was doing the work for Jim Wee's work. They were you know like those guys were finding they were writing and drawing their books.

01:54:47.58
Steven
The.

01:55:27.60
cbderrick
And their comics were so overly wordy like Spawn was such an overly wordy book in the first I don't know first year right? and all that stuff was that savage Dragon I Think what happened in a response to that was they just started saying less text less. Like like less dialogue less dialogue because I kind of remember.

01:56:02.34
Steven
You're you're saying you're saying the image stuff. The image stuff was responding to to saber saber and stuff books like this and writing like this which had come before.

01:56:22.20
cbderrick
No, but no, no what I'm saying is it' shows them now like the reason why now books are so like they're so scant with text said maybe like you know you know like Bri Michael Bide and and but the style of this kind of like this novelvoous accept type of storytelling. You wouldn't.

01:56:34.66
Steven
Yeah.

01:56:58.66
cbderrick
See it and in in the Marvel book or dc book. but I but I but I saw remember so reading some of those early spawns and savage dragons and and either the pit and the max and it was like so much text you know it was just like god damn me like you just won't stop talking.

01:56:55.30
Steven
No, no nap.

01:57:33.64
cbderrick
And I feel like the industry like said you know what these books are selling. Let's have a there's a backlash to that you know I think that's not to be why the saber book when they did the reprint in 70 in in Ninety Eight I think those artists fucking love that work and what it was. But the audience was like oh no, no, no, no, we've had enough of this kind of like this like this overly wordy like stuff that becomes not cynical to us you know and our our attention are when this is this is 78 There's no video games. You know there's there's There's 3 television Channels. There's no cable.

01:58:16.20
Steven
Um, yeah, yeah.

01:58:36.34
Steven
Um, right.

01:58:45.64
cbderrick
So you know everyone's a Ti span like like allows for more ah dissity in the comic because won you know how much less you got, but okay, okay, do what next you know you gonna go outside and and play.

01:58:58.20
Steven
That's a great point. That's totally true. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, right? Now. It's so true Man. It's so true and it's really just genuinely so Interesting. How the amount of entertainment options and just distractions in life that we have now it it really does.

01:59:23.68
cbderrick
Mostly because you know I mean I mean you could you know.

01:59:50.56
Steven
Have a huge effect on the way that we have time and attention and desire to take in any kind of media and something like Saber I mean if if image put out a comic that was as dense as saber today I mean it just it just wouldn't it wouldn't happen. You know it's like it's inconceivable that they would put out something. Where the story was this wordy and the verbiage was this dense on the page. It's just it does not exist today.

02:00:46.64
cbderrick
No, no, but interesting enough just like aztag ace my I bet my theory holds true with this I bet you if somebody was to reboot saber today some artist some writer artist team or some whatever it was said.

02:01:04.38
Steven
Um, right.

02:01:25.82
cbderrick
Let's start off and do saber as if saber had never existed. How do we tell this story for the modern audience. You know I think that it's It's such a strong idea and it's such a bizarre world that I feel like that somebody.

02:01:35.66
Steven
Yeah.

02:01:54.48
Steven
Yep.

02:02:04.88
cbderrick
Could do that now. Granted these guys you know like Don Mcgregor and and and Doug Mench probably wouldn't want that to happen because it would be such a ah, it's like a slap in the face of their original work. But that's usually what happens with like like with like with with any remake or.

02:02:25.92
Steven
Um, right.

02:02:43.84
cbderrick
Or something like that. You know where like how do we reimagine it for today's audience um yeah you know I feel like you know what's a remake of something oh you were a classic example was like top gun the top gun the new top gun movie right.

02:03:09.68
Steven
Um, for.

02:03:18.20
cbderrick
Like like it's arguably better than the original. Um, which which I find difficult to say because I love Tony Scott as I've told you so many times and that was a movie that like totally changed his career but it's better than the original one because it's able to. It's not that it's.

02:03:23.56
Steven
Um, yes, of course.

02:03:55.78
cbderrick
It's technically better sure. But that's not why it's better. It's better because it it's it tells that kind of you know, ah fluid but dense storytelling with with with like with modern pacing. Yeah because I.

02:04:12.34
Steven
M. Right? right.

02:04:32.74
cbderrick
Yeah I feel like this book and Atec a's work if somebody like could pace it up. You know like I'm not not saying like removing his storytelling anything like that I've give me look like obviously you like these first 2 issues of Saber would probably be like you know like 5 issues today or 6 Um.

02:04:37.98
Steven
Um, yeah.

02:04:59.46
Steven
Yeah I think they actually would yeah.

02:05:12.10
cbderrick
Just just that the amount of story you're telling you know I mean I mean what that' scene like that moment when saberg gets captured and they're like you know, ah torturing him and they they're burning out his brain I mean that's like 2 pages maybe 3 pages of of I bumy is ah maybe it's 5 right.

02:05:30.42
Steven
Yep.

02:05:47.50
cbderrick
But but but in but today that'll be half the book you know because you because he's being captured. You'd come back to him like you know like like there in the you you get these panels where it's like there's no balloon. No balloon. No balloon the negro wakes up.

02:05:47.52
Steven
Um, oh yeah.

02:06:19.54
cbderrick
You know and it's like it's like the repeat repeat. You know like like they do things None to like you said to to deconstruct the the pacing today and in doing that you know it would be longer in terms of like actual page count. Um, but but not more story and I think that's where this book. Um, I think this would happen with the day I mean honestly be because somebody did that today I don't know if what his name would do I don't know if Mcgregor would allow someone to come and write this like.

02:07:07.40
Steven
Yeah, yeah, well Mcgregor Mcgregor is credited as the sole creator on on Saber which is not not a credit that I love particularly because it always makes me feel weird when ah when a writer is credited as the sole creator of a comic. When you know that obviously he's not the one drawing it. So um I don't know what the what the business is behind that. But you know when I look at the ah indcia here. Okay well to be fair on the indc. It says that all the characters and their likenesses are copyright. Ah, Don Mcgregor and Paul Galacy which is nice to see. Um so I don't know exactly what the ownership deal is maybe there is something of a split between Mcgregor and galacy. But the actual credits on the book read creator and writer Don Mcgregor artist Paul Galacy so

02:08:46.40
cbderrick
Exactly exactly what the owners 50 maybe get something that splits the cook ground.

02:09:02.52
Steven
To me that's always just like a ah little bit. You know a little bit kind of wonky to see the artist know.

02:09:19.50
cbderrick
It's kind of yeah I mean it's kind of it's kind of a snow but I I want but I wonder what was the status of creator rights and all that division of labor in 1978 or 1977

02:09:34.72
Steven
Well, it was bad I mean it was bad everywhere except for eclipse and you know Mcgregor makes makes a point I think in one of his essays about really singing the praises of ah Dean Mulaney the ah the cofounder and publisher of Eclipse. And how Dean was giving creators full ownership of their books because Eclipse Cat Cat Ironwood and Dean Mulaney they did that which was amazing and groundbreaking for comics but they were giving creators rights and so but in this case for whatever reason Mcgregor is the only one being ah being given that. That name that that title so I don't know I'm sure there's a story behind that hopefully you know it's not like the walking dead kind of story where that you know wound up.

02:11:06.76
cbderrick
Well, what was was interesting. Is you I mean look you know like in reading it, you know like Galace just did the graphic novel and he and did the first 2 issues when they get the issue 3 It's a different artist. You know.

02:11:20.72
Steven
Um, up right up right? You can Billy grant the Billy Graham who comes in. Yeah.

02:11:43.18
cbderrick
Um, yeah, so it's possible that you know there was some some um, some consternation between the two of them after that the original graphic novel because obviously you know like goi was not trying to do the rest of the the next twelve issues. Um, um.

02:11:50.96
Steven
The.

02:12:04.68
Steven
Right? right? right? right? You know I I wish there's there are some say them some big interviews online with Don Mcgregor talking about Saber and I wish I had ah taken the time to read. Some of those before we recorded today but I'm sure there's some good stories behind all of this. Um, this is interesting. Saber Saber was almost brought back. This is interesting. This is a listing from 9 years ago Chris um, saber was almost brought back. It looks like by Don Mcgregor

02:12:48.24
cbderrick
Yeah, yeah, but well I mean but I.

02:13:10.74
Steven
Writer of the original series and it was to be illustrated by Trevor Von eden nine years ago. Yeah, and they were trying to get funding on kickstarter I'm just seeing this here. That's crazy. That's ah, that's wild Trevor was doing it with dawn on kickstarter I don't know if this ever got funded but there's a whole interview.

02:13:21.42
cbderrick
Um, but.

02:13:49.54
Steven
With Mcgregor from nine years ago talking about this here. Let me let me click now let me click on the campaign here it. Oh yeah, it fell short. It felt they were asking for 17000 and they only got eleven thousand six eighteen oh man, that's shame. That's a real tragedy. It was supposed to be called saber.

02:14:01.76
cbderrick
There's no way I funded because yeah, because because I never heard of it. But.

02:14:27.96
Steven
The early future years graphic novel by Don Mcgregor trevor von eden sabber the most explosive hero in comics returns in a thrilling science fantasy adventure by Mcgregor and Van Eden funding unsuccessful man that is that is really that's a shame. It's a tragedy.

02:15:02.42
cbderrick
Not is nine years ago. It's a shame because that's but you but you know what I feel that it is like of like why that probably failed Trevor's not a hot artist and dance not a hot. Um, ah.

02:15:28.42
Steven
Yeah, writer.

02:15:41.98
cbderrick
Ah, writer and I feel Also again I feel I feel the book is harmed I think the book is harm financially because the lead is black I feel that if you know like the people who could finance and get behind it.

02:16:01.82
Steven
Earth.

02:16:19.60
cbderrick
You know like they're not enough black, not not not enough blacky but with disposal money who are comic fans you know to to really get that's that's my theory. Um I could be wrong, but I feel like that I mean that's it's $70000 is not a lot of money when you think I mean look the other day I put money down on this. This like this ah kickstarter thing for Bernie Resan where they were like they were doing a book where they're they were printing. You know like I guess he did like some monster trading cards or some horror trading cards like twenty years ago

02:17:01.60
Steven
Sure.

02:17:20.40
Steven
Um, yeah.

02:17:29.68
cbderrick
And and and so there's a book that's just reprinting those all that like full size orever the the original art size was you know and there's sort of's just no, even comic. There was just reprint of his art and the thing was like oh we're looking for like $40000 and it was already like funded with like None 28

02:17:33.64
Steven
Um.

02:18:05.16
cbderrick
You know I mean was at least two weeks left to ago maybe three weeks up to go but like like like or is possible for the saber thing because maybe it's like Aztec Ace you know a similar type of um time period. Um, maybe that do mcgregor just didn't know how to do the kickstarter thing right.

02:18:03.22
Steven
Here.

02:18:34.70
Steven
Um, yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah, that's very possible and obviously anytime that ah a Trevor Von eden comic does not get published. It's ah it's a huge loss for all of comics.

02:18:42.52
cbderrick
You know because there's there's a way to you have to do that right to get that money. You know.

02:19:10.54
Steven
Because as faithful listeners of this show know we are massive fans of Trevor Vaughn Eaton here yeah so um, that's what's.

02:19:21.12
cbderrick
He was fans as it his you know I mean I mean I mean it's interesting though. Those guys didn't try it again like they didn't try to again like you know, maybe three or four years later or or somebody could have like somebody could have said hey man let me run your campaign. You know.

02:19:35.94
Steven
Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally it looks like they had a guy running it for them somebody named Jason Sachs who looks like he was trying to run it for them and you know who knows um, you know I don't want to blame him for it. But for whatever reason they fell short. They had a variant cover by Brian Del freeze for this proposed ah Saber relaunch which is pretty dope. It's actually really cool to con cover. Um I think they probably should have gotten more probably should have got more artists to to kick in stuff like that. Maybe they just needed a little bit more of a groundswell of support. Um, but yeah i. I hope that we do get to see more saber at some point like I I definitely want to go back and read the rest of this run. You know I'm I'm sufficiently intrigued by these first two issues I want to see when Billy Graham comes in as artist and and just the the madness that mcgregors got in store for the next dozen issues i'm. I'm sure it's I'm sure it's not going to get safe and normal.

02:21:24.60
cbderrick
We'll get wait here the thing right? So at at the end of issue 2 there's like a little house ad for hey you know ah subscribe. You know, whatever send money in to get the next more next Whatever administration was a saber art by Billy Graham we're starting up soon and the and the art by Billy Graham like his art reminded me. It's not like it's not Michael Kaluta but it's that style of art you know ah gets.

02:22:12.48
Steven
Um, um, it lost out of illustrative.

02:22:26.86
cbderrick
It's very illust. Yeah, it's not at all like Galaccy's work at all and I look at it I mean it looks like some it looks like some you know, remember a comic called Prince valiant that that old comic from the new Supertscripts you know like like it felt like that yeah was like ah that kind of like detail and.

02:22:25.20
Steven
Um.

02:22:40.68
Steven
Ah, the old strip of course. Yeah.

02:23:03.56
cbderrick
Just you know it's like it's it's saber holdingen like like mosts of Siren and some like kind of you know like piratey pose obviously because they he loves aerol Flynn so you know she's got like a cape on or somethingm like that I mean it looked pretty fascinating I was like oh I want to read this too because I because like I'd be curious to read it if if I was.

02:23:22.78
Steven
Um, feeling.

02:23:42.72
cbderrick
Buying this book eighty two I definitely be getting at least issue 3 just to see what the storys because it is is it ends in a way where it's so like um, it's such an open ended ending. You know like I mean look I mean like he he defeats the overseer and then it customized what like two months later or six months later whatever it is like.

02:23:42.20
Steven
Um, right? Oh yeah.

02:23:58.42
Steven
Um, yep.

02:24:22.18
cbderrick
The last page and it and it and he's like a you know people have found me in their day away. You know from there day's ride away so you have to go away and I'm going to go out to these people and she's pregnant with this child. So maybe only two months you know to like two months from when they when they left. And he just walks walks off on the beach. He's no, you know it's like that's the end of the story. It feels like ah um, it feels like a very 70 s movie ending. You know, like ah like ah you know um it's fascinating you know I mean I'd be curious.

02:25:10.56
Steven
Yes, it does it does have that vibe.

02:25:31.58
cbderrick
Because you know to see what coming after him, you know because he's destroyed the overseer He you know he's embarrassed the overseer in front of these people who are trying to show like his synchronation is secret his synchronization technique which makes everybody the whole story is about conformity.

02:25:48.68
Steven
Right.

02:26:07.24
cbderrick
You know which I kind of love and it's like this. The main thing that he's talking about in that opening essay and the imagery print like he see it.

02:26:08.12
Steven
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a great point. There's like a real kind of a holographic unity between what the stories about what saber the character's dealing with and what Mcgregor the writer in real life is railing against that's a great point.

02:26:35.00
cbderrick
Yeah, yeah, because he's just like I can't deal with the bullshit and I want this different and I would and and you know and I mean ah I mean you know it's like I mean like honestly like could you even do sayber as a Tv series or a movie.

02:27:04.44
Steven
Maybe like a Netflix tv series I don't know pretty well. It's a wild Tv series too I mean they did squid game.

02:27:13.74
cbderrick
Know you? Well you I mean you could if mean if they did that if they did if they did not no, but if they did Cowboy Bebop which was like this which I'm not wish I'm not endorsing on any level.

02:27:42.38
Steven
And.

02:27:51.40
cbderrick
Just saying they did like a really weird like whoa kind of world with cowboy bebop then but then maybe that because that is I didn't do well for them. Um, they wouldn't do anything crazy. But I've heard that Netflix is super conservative like super conservative like I mean now grantite.

02:27:55.82
Steven
1

02:28:15.76
Steven
Me.

02:28:30.86
cbderrick
This is you know David Kronenberg saying it so so you take that with a grain of salt. But what he was saying that but he was real. It was reading an article about his ah new movie crimes in the future and he just constantly kept saying that they're super conservative at Netflix it it made me think sure and he thought was.

02:28:29.84
Steven
Right? right.

02:29:09.86
cbderrick
I think I can yeah um, um, um, sorry about the what why to edit that out. Um, ah yeah, so I'm watching crown to the future with David Kenberg and the interview with a variety music. Khan is you keep saying how.

02:29:17.56
Steven
Yeah, yeah, it's okay.

02:29:47.14
cbderrick
Conservative Netflix is but say like 4 4 times the article and it made me think oh yeah, they don't do very risky material. They don't I always wish they would have been like to fill the vacuum that mirmaxs used to do you know and fine line and stuff like that but they didn't they're just like.

02:29:57.98
Steven
Who. Right.

02:30:26.16
cbderrick
You know they're the most conservative like like films to do you know they only do because the the only is of ah they they'll only do stuff if the algorithm tells them to do it. You know.

02:30:37.62
Steven
Yeah, it's really sad. It's really really sad. We ah we wouldn't have gotten most of our favorite movies if that was the ah the dictum that everyone was listening to back then back many years ago that's that's really part.

02:31:05.46
cbderrick
yeah yeah I mean ah but I mean it's it's part of what stuff is bad now. But again, this's part of why I think the top gun like Maverick worked really well because those guys are like let's make a movie that's got no agenda that's got this literally has no agenda.

02:31:18.62
Steven
Look up.

02:31:37.60
Steven
Yeah.

02:31:42.42
cbderrick
Just makes something that's gonna be fun and it goes back to what I what what I remember remember course Mccrarie was saying on his interview on the moment podcast he kept saying my mantra is total audience engagement that it's just because he's he he's like it doesn't matter he he's like if i.

02:32:01.18
Steven
Um, well it'

02:32:21.52
cbderrick
Have you like from moment to moment I want you in the story to the point that you're not thinking about what you just saw and and and you're notic anticipating. What's going to happen in the next like 30 seconds too mention like I need you right there and that means that yeah yeah I want you present.

02:32:21.32
Steven
Um, the.

02:32:41.92
Steven
Um, he wants you pregnant.

02:32:58.54
cbderrick
That means if he doesn't necessarily follow a lot of like the the structural rule I mean yes, he's got this beginning middle end but all these other you know, storytelling tricks and ups and downs bla blah he't he doesn't follow any of that because he knows that and actually that really really good writers know this and it's like. Ah, just follow and be in where I am right now to worry about what happened like 5 minutes ago I mean look because because he needst forgotten about it. So it's still in the story. It's not like he's just like saying oh forget, it. Forget it. Forget it. But it's like hey just stay stay with me now stay with me and now stay with me now stay with me now and.

02:33:39.62
Steven
Um, yeah.

02:34:08.18
cbderrick
That's something that he did really really well in that movie and I think that's sort of something that Mcgregor was doing in this book because you have to like it's so much text and I'm not saying that in the pejorative way. But it's like he's like throwing volumes at you to keep you interested like you can't really like flip a head.

02:34:35.26
Steven
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, no he he totally is and I can't help but think that you know some of the writers that we'll see later from like the the British invasion in comics later in the eighty s.

02:34:46.26
cbderrick
Is if you flip the head to page you believe with the fuck Why where are we.

02:35:10.54
Steven
Can't help but think a lot of those guys did grow up reading Mcgregor as well because when you get to somebody like Pete Milligan writing screamer you know which we covered on an earlier episode. You know one of the things that we were kind of oohing and awing over was like the incredible sometimes florid but really poetic. And you know judicious use of like prose and like captions for Milligan where he was writing these really evocative sort of text pieces and and you know text boxes and whatnot ah for for screamer and I can't help but think that the Dna of that kind of writing. It is in this Don Mcgregor work from the 70 s and early eighty s where mcgregor mcgreor is going to town on this stuff and of course he was a well-known writer who wrote for Marvel had lengthy runs on you know, black panther and ah. Think he co-created the character kill Raven if I'm not mistaken with pe cra peak Cra Russell in the 70 s and you know Mcgregor went on to also have some more indie work. Um like he did a thing called detectives inc with Gene Colon which and think was which was also through eclipse and then over at Dc. He had another detective book Nathaniel Dusk

02:36:57.00
cbderrick
Yeah, but you get.

02:37:28.56
cbderrick
Yeah, to.

02:37:26.84
Steven
Which had 2 volumes also with Gene Colon and those were books where Mcgregor was still kind of pushing the boundaries too and you know with detective fiction in a couple different books there you know a genre that comics obviously does not hardly ever tackle and I think in those ah Gene Colon nathaniel dusk books they were published from the original pencils.

02:38:10.26
cbderrick
Yeah.

02:38:06.60
Steven
By gene coen which was I think was pretty revolutionary at the time and Collin of course had his penciling style which was so elaborate and so full of gray and notoriously hard to ink like he would give fucking ink.

02:38:32.86
cbderrick
For sure for sure.

02:38:36.20
Steven
Conn connection fits you know or he would be really unhappy with the results because so few ins could ink gene colon ah, but yeah, so that was like just you see that Mcgregor was always at the center of some kind of kind of like experimentation and like pushing against the boundaries or. The boxes of the industry and I think it it really it marks him as like a ah very notable creator that you know you probably don't hear people talk about as much these days as they should but Don Mcgregor was a really significant figure in comics and I think he's exactly the kind of person that is just ideal for us to be spotlighting on comics rot your brain here. I mean like that's I think like you were saying earlier about our mandate. It's part of the reason we wanted to do this show is to to shine a light on these creators who were so substantial and significant and you just don't hear about them and their work being kind of put under a magnifying glass or you know discussed and and reckoned with seriously so I think that's. You know it's a dope thing about being able to have these conversations with Euchris is just to actually really consider all this work and I'm I'm looking at this last ah text piece in the saber number 2 which is kind of interesting and it gives you a little insight into what Mcgregor was thinking at the time and this is a little note for the readers here. Which also touches on some of the provocative subject matter quote unquote in the story and Mcgregor says here with the advent of our None issue I wanted to have the opportunity to address you readers directly It's amazing. Typical comic book hyperbole that the printing of Saber as a color comic has brought a whole new audience. To his adventures who weren't aware that Saber was originally published in 78 as a black and white graphic album. We have already received a couple letters from readers who think that he's new on the scene and here I thought our original ad coverage for saber reached everybody who was even remotely interested in comics we have had some initial feedback from a few dealers who are suddenly concerned. There is a sexual element in Saber so that's interesting here. He's talking about the sexual element being what's causing concern not either. He's not explicitly saying the racial element but that might be the subtext here because as you said Chris it's a sexual relationship between a black man and a white woman so there.

02:42:29.24
cbderrick
I Told you okay.

02:42:48.86
cbderrick
That is that is it. It totally is good.

02:42:52.60
Steven
When the dealers are complaining about the sexual element There's probably something of a dog whistle maybe or's some kind of a a coded complaint there? um and then Mcgregor's response here is also interesting. He says in the four years since Saber was first published. We have not received None negative reaction. To the romantic and sexual union of Melissa and saber yet now four years later it seems to be creating a controversy. No one seems concerned that there are some violent happenings in the book. A little spilled blood. Not None raised voice an image of a man and woman making love and not in an exploitational sense. And already the cries have begun frankly folks. It confuses me and saddens me and in the letters page I'd like to hear your views on the subject should the characters in saber be the neuters who are so prevalent in the comics world or would you rather that we explore all facets of their personalities. I've always enjoyed a running dialogue with the readers that response for many of you years ago made the tensions and frustrations of creating comics easier. It made me aware that many of you cared many of you were paying attention to what happened on these pages that comics were not throw away art to you and me. It was the enthusiasm and passion expressed from the readers along with working with some very talented artists that were the most pleasurable memories I have of working in a medium that often would rather have writers work as whores or mechanics.

02:45:59.20
cbderrick
Well so again that goes back to his being a Maverick I think that's why he's not I think that's why he's not heard of ah now today because I think at a certain point you know the editors become these kind of like.

02:46:03.42
Steven
Um.

02:46:34.68
cbderrick
You know custodians of the IP you know and I think that when and when you to that stage the way that Marvel and DC became in the late 90 s and beyond they don't want to have Mavericks right in shit you know like I feel like.

02:46:31.44
Steven
Um, that's yeah, um.

02:46:54.60
Steven
Right.

02:47:09.28
cbderrick
You know I feel like that that I I hate to bring his name up but I feel like that Warren Ellis after he did transmistropolitan probably couldn't do like a mainstream book anymore you know I I feel like though that they wouldn't he's he became too much of a lightning rod definitely now. but I but I think in the in the wake of trans metropolitan that's that's why he was doing stuff like you know, um, the authority and ah the other book who everyone were what's the one. We love the the not the authority. But um, the planetary like he's doing those books and it's.

02:48:03.30
Steven
Ah, planetary planetary.

02:48:21.96
cbderrick
As much as he's probably never going to tell you well I don't want to do kindiral stuff anyway, I'm sure you do want to write an x-men book the way you know that Garth or I ah that Grant Morrison did because you get the money you get ah the money in a way that you're not going to get on an indie book.

02:48:36.42
Steven
Now Graham Orson

02:48:56.60
cbderrick
And I feel like someone like Don Mcgregor he's forgotten about because I mean it's interesting that he wrote on black panther about a white guy writing about a black hero and then he's writing saber there's a white guy and a black hero I also feel that in listening to what his response is this sexual moment. Is that I bet you look if you look at the book when that book is black and white. It's not in your face that it's a black man having sex with a white woman that become the it may I mean yes, is there because of the way he's drawn but you look at his face. He kind of looks a little bit like.

02:49:44.52
Steven
Um, yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, right.

02:50:13.68
cbderrick
Um, he looks a little bit like um Charles Bronson in the face like a Charles Bronson yeah

02:50:16.96
Steven
Oh that's an interesting comparison but I could see that especially in black and white. It is kind of like a so like a skinny version of a Charles Bronson bronson facial structure um but that's yeah, that's interesting.

02:50:44.14
cbderrick
Yeah, like yeah yeah, like the way is ah I mean like he he reminds you of Charles Bronson in in um, the first image of him. He's wearing a hat like a a cowboy hat so he rise of Charles Bronson from like once of a time of the west and then it's like later on you get to chance. Okay, he's.

02:51:02.86
Steven
Um, right.

02:51:19.58
cbderrick
You know he's gonna be black the way his hair is with bla then obviously the way he's but then when you see him as a kid growing up ma bla I mean it's not like in your face in your face. He's not number one. He's not talking the way that they made black people talk in the 70 s in comic like if you go and look at like.

02:51:39.84
Steven
No, not at all.

02:51:54.78
cbderrick
The way power man talked or the way falcon talked you know it's like like they talked like jive street brothers and and saber doesn't talk that way. So I feel like when you're reading that book in black and white. You don't it's not It's not hammered home on every page. This is the black man this is the black man this is the black man and it's not also amber at home day. He's not just having sex with a white woman. He's having sex with a blonde white woman and I think that when you see that in color it is like is causing causing people's heads to explode you know because they they just weren't down with that. You know, like particularly in any kind of fucking like you know and comics for what we know it's like it's a pretty it's a pretty um specific audience. You know it's not particularly at this time. It's not so mainstream. It's not so liberal. You know I think it's ah it's ah it's ah it's a bad thing to assume that audiences for for anything is very liberal. Um, and I think that when these guys are like I think that I honest think that part of these people would get pushback for doing things that that are like Saber that are pushing the boundaries that are expressing things. Ah, that are progressive in a way is because they because the the the retailers and the se people know these books don't sell the most in like New York and in Los Angeles they got to sell all over the country. So. It's like everything else like at that time period where it's like.

02:54:39.94
Steven
My.

02:54:55.44
cbderrick
Gotta to be we to be ginger. We go to Ginger we tread when we do about Race relations because this's like and that can be why he had to sell the book to the direct market because if he's saying hey this is like a black hero who's goingnna do this? You know there's pushback. We can't sell this in the south. We can't sell this in the Midwest you know I mean like we could.

02:55:23.58
Steven
Um, yeah, that's that's a good point.

02:55:35.42
cbderrick
If the people you know if the thing is if you sell a direct market those those retailers who are buying it are seeing what the cover art looks like and they're making the decision I can buy like I can order None issues of this I can order 20 issues of this. But when you do the whole thing with the the supermarkets and the drugstores and the spinner racks those message just buying stuff like oh what's the next ekus comic we're gonna buy like you know 20 of those month There's not There's hard there the oversight in the the design of like what's the economics. Have to be different at the Greg Margaret because they know it's more niche. They just can't hope some kid's going to run by and grab it. You know so I I I would have to ah assume that and you know I mean look I mean we've talked a lot about race in like on this on various episodes. You know, like of this podcast. But I feel. It's like more so with this because look this is predating you know like you know like Dennis Cowen's work on the question and and yet Dennis Cowen is ah what he is a ah he is a black guy but he's drawing a white hero you know and same through trevon needon you know what he's doing through or he's not drawing black characters.

02:57:34.82
Steven
Um, yeah.

02:58:07.94
cbderrick
But this is a guy who's drawing a black character and and neith of these guys are are black and they're doing at a time when your heroes who are black are what it's Jon Stewart's is black lightning. It's falcon. It's black panther and.

02:58:34.14
Steven
Yeah Luke cage.

02:58:48.50
cbderrick
Luke cage and and maybe you know like rodie rose but he's an ironman yet. That's about all you have for black characters. You know I mean that's that's less than 10 and and and and that he's doing such a ah I mean look.

02:59:02.38
Steven
Yeah.

02:59:23.60
cbderrick
Even if this character like wasn't black. It is sort of sexually sexually explicit and I think has to go with what I was saying to you before. It's not great. It's not um, you know. Movies in Tv that did show sexuality didn't show the tenderness that this book is showing you I think that that that's you know the way they talk about what sex means to them and even after the fact when they're like when they're escaping or before they get caught.

03:00:08.98
Steven
Yeah.

03:00:37.84
cbderrick
Ever conversation about what's like what the you know like he says Don like you know, maybe he's at the end he's like you know I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna miss the touch of you or someone some great great line. Let me see if I could find it I thought it was such a great line. Um for somebody to say. Ah, you know, let me just see if I could find it because it was really fascinating to me armies haunt touch. Yeah, yeah, yeah, ah, yeah, he yeah, it's which it's okay this what Saber says to Melissa.

03:01:19.40
Steven
Earth.

03:01:47.76
cbderrick
On the last page of of of issue 2 It's the second second second row he goes and I wish I could stay I am already haunted by our memories and the thought that I won't touch you for endless nights for endless indeed for endless empty nights.

03:02:11.70
Steven
Um, um.

03:02:27.00
cbderrick
Like that's the kind of language that is not what you get in. Um I mean like it's very poetic. It's It's very intimate. It's It's not what you get in movies Tv or other comics. You know, um.

03:02:49.26
Steven
Um, yeah.

03:02:59.78
cbderrick
Then there's this great panel that let's say in the last panel of the whole book is a silhouette of them about to kiss. You know, like in the frame by the moon with some great kind of half-tonne art and shit and you know I mean and oh here's something else I love I'm actually going to steal this somewhere. Ah, it put it in ah in a description in the script it it says ah says Saber's voice is like a lost whisper I don't know how much you know he he's responding ah to a questions to ask I was like that's kind of beautiful. You know this.

03:03:31.56
Steven
Who.

03:03:59.64
Steven
Who gela.

03:04:10.44
cbderrick
Actually kind of beautiful I mean it. It sets up this kind of like this relationship that I also think at the time it's like you know like a lot of times black men are portrayed as like being like you know, like sort of like sexual machines. You know, like like like the. The softer nature of of men and women when they have intimate relationships. You don't see that with black men on Tv or movies particularly at this time you know and it's like you know like this is still black exploitation time in cinema with like shaft and superfly and. You know shit like that you know and I mean and and and Bill D Williams is not allowed to do anything you know, really sexual when he's like the big star of the time and it's like but da Mcgregor and galiy are like they're so pushing the envelope and they're so like making this guy so human like in a way. That you were not seeing in any other kind of like medium because even in like some of those you know like some of the stuff with Jim Brown you know the or the isaac hay stuff or all that back exploitation the way and those things are very sexual like Pam Gur and stuff like that. There's like a there's a there's a hard edge to the sexuality and the way that they behave like John Shaft like like yeah like he's the sex machine like it says like like in a thing but he's never like tender with his women. You know like.

03:07:09.52
Steven
Right? right.

03:07:20.40
cbderrick
Like in the book or in the movies and stuff like that You know I mean he's so kind of like they're disposable to him you know and that's not the case here and that it happens to be with a white woman and I think that's like and you know fascinating and she's going to have his child so it's like.

03:07:45.34
Steven
Um, yeah, yeah.

03:07:57.34
cbderrick
I mean there's like a lot to this at the end where I could see where the readers would be like what the fuck are you doing Don I don't know's gonna I mean I like I could just see like the hate mail coming in and it.

03:08:03.30
Steven
Um, yeah, well and I think I didn't read it and I haven't read the rest of the run. But I know that one of the later issues of saber in this run is quite famous and it's like it's known as the birth issue. Where um, you know? Ah I think she gives she gives birth to Saber's child and I think it's a fairly explicit for comics depiction of the birth of the child and sabers like literally pulling out the baby with the umbel, the umbilical cord and like holding it holding it in the air like I've seen the page from the book. And I think that was considered a really risky sort of thing in comics to show the birth of a child you know from this mixed couple in the comic and you know again, the book is just it's pushing boundaries and I think it's one of the really admirable things about Saber. It was a was a comic well ahead of its time and you can tell that Don Mcgregor had to fight hard to get this book out. There.

03:10:01.80
cbderrick
Oh yeah, but ah oh yeah, I mean it's evident in everything he said about it I mean look I haven't heard about that page or that panel that sequence but it's like you know, um, this is early None s so this book only ran what None issues so of ran from August. From 82 to what's that to just to october of 83 you know I mean so it was done so I mean that kind of to show ah a birth in comics probably doesn't really show up until you do.

03:10:47.28
Steven
Yep.

03:11:13.20
cbderrick
Like a actual birth birthing type of scene isys until you in the Vertigo. You know, like probably that's so that's that's ten years later you know? So he's like a whole full generation of comic like comic stuff. He's doing something that people are not able to do.

03:11:13.14
Steven
Um, yeah, right.

03:11:50.18
cbderrick
You know I'm sure people wanted to do it other stuff but I'm sure it was edited out. Sure people read than in this. The editors are like you're not gonna you're not goingnna write this. You're not gonna you know we attempt to draw this. Yeah this wild that's parking wild.

03:12:01.78
Steven
Um, yeah, no for sure. yeah yeah I mean this is ah is a very noteworthy book for a lot of reasons historically and and also just the actual content of it. It's ah. Fascinating piece of work and you know it's something everyone should check out. Saber is a challenging read. But you know nowhere near as challenging as aztec ace for example, is just on the spectrum of eighty s comics and you know like like everything we've been talking about here today. It's It's a hell of an example of what you can do in the comics medium and just it's a bizarre wild futuristic story that ah you know today. It seems charming that it's set in 2018 but you know back then this was some some wild speculative fiction about the future and and by the way I just want to note that I love that when they're talking about 2018 in the comic Chris um, it's the the actual year is written with a comma after the two. So. It's like the the arc one future of 2018.

03:14:09.92
cbderrick
Yeah I know I know I thought that was wild that was ah.

03:14:17.78
Steven
But with a comma after the two because they thought that's how the date was going to be written. Yeah, that was pretty funny.

03:14:28.10
cbderrick
I thought that was why I I mean but but I mean I think what's interesting is you know it's always funny when you see stuff from like the late 70 s or early eighty s of how they envision the future. No I just like nobody in envisioned digital. Nobody did it like it was just beyond anybody because it's he's still using cassette tapes the the the you you look at a something like um.

03:15:06.74
Steven
Right? right.

03:15:19.80
Steven
And.

03:15:38.96
cbderrick
Yeah, like even Alien you know it's you look you I'm saying like there's always a senses of like analogness was like that was our world and that's all we knew and no one even could we could could conceive of the digital the way that it is now I mean yeah, a little bit of stuff even like you know like even. 2001 but still, it's still pretty analog you know it's um, yeah, it's pretty crazy that the transistor and all that was like so not really considered like it was just a thing like it wasn't going to just like I consume us in such a level. Um.

03:16:15.20
Steven
Um, yeah.

03:16:50.56
cbderrick
But you know I mean look it's look this book is you I was thinking about it now. It's like this book is not new. He is challenging as like Mr Monster I like like I don't think yeah.

03:17:00.60
Steven
Yeah, oh that's interesting. Yeah I guess Mr Monster jumped around a lot more in timeframes so you're right? You're right, did Mr Monster like you and you had a lot of characters and kind of mysteries like going back and forth across generations and in that origin story. We read. So yeah, no, you're you're right? You're right? This is actually a fairly straightforward story. It's just a very dense straight and completely batshit insane but very linear and straightforward story and yeah, they tell you about the past but it's in clearly delineated flashbacks like there's never.

03:18:07.64
cbderrick
Click the complex. Yeah, typically.

03:18:08.10
Steven
There really aren't that any moments that are confusing in this work. It's just it's just a lot to take in.

03:18:23.20
cbderrick
Yes, it's hell odd to take in. It is a hell art to take in and I almost feel like everybody is doing this themselves a disservice. Not not reading this book I mean look it's probably hard to get the clips. It's probably hard to get the eclipse. Issues. Maybe I don't know if the how however they are ebay I'm sure that the image reprint is so be a lot more available I'm sure that theyre that original 78 graphic novel that be almost impossible to find um I don't know I've I haven't been ebay to look.

03:19:16.88
Steven
Yeah I think I mean I think they're out there like I bought the 78 graphic novel um on ebay. Not that long ago. But I don't I don't know if there's a ton of amount there I'm sure the image the image reprints probably easier to come by and you get the benefit of the the fiery Don Mcgregor essay from twenty years later but the. The actual eclipse comics I think are not that tough to find online at this point and they won't they won't run you that much money and you'll get the the letter columns and all that. So. So as always, you know I would recommend getting the original issues wherever you can folks? Um, although the nice thing about the graphic um album graphic novel collection. Whether it's the original one or the image reprint is you get to see that glorious Paul Galazi art in black and white which is which is kind of ah a different experience and really lets you appreciate galace's line work on another level. so so yeah whatever format you check it out in I think you won't be disappointed. Saber has up.

03:20:48.64
cbderrick
Your point. Yeah, which is.

03:21:10.82
Steven
A ton of heart and love and madness contained in its pages and just a whole lot of passion from 2 creators who really clearly gave a shit about what they were doing and were trying to push the medium of comics forward and I would say they succeeded.

03:21:41.98
cbderrick
Yeah, they totally did they totally totally did. Um so I guess I guess that that wraps up this episode of comics rods your brain. Ah, you know. I don't have any last words I think it just said my last words you know, just just you should rule a book find the book you you can get it. Um, ah, they're available on Ebay. So yeah, is there any final thoughts Steve get you any final thoughts or or or you know.

03:22:15.30
Steven
Um, yeah.

03:22:38.64
Steven
no no I think I think I'm good. Thanks for thanks for listening to ah another ah another discussion of old comics folks. We'll ah we'll see you next week

03:23:04.30
cbderrick
Yeah, so we'll be back next week with another book that you probably haven't heard of don't know that is yet. We'll know a little bit but ah because you know because we have a whole list of things that we want to discuss so it's not like we're just trying to be obscure but we just don't know we're gonna read next. Ah, or just actually something It's usually said that we're revisiting I do want to get our grim Jack episode done soon as we can, but but but but but but but yeah, we special guest for that. So so so that's coming soon for for fans of what kind of stuff that we're gonna look at is grim Jack. Um, yeah.

03:23:46.96
Steven
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, we got we got to get that done. We've we've got a special guest for that one. So yeah I got to read that to him.

03:24:22.96
cbderrick
And maybe some more Timothy Truman who we talked about before so original work. Um, will you know there might there might find it be a Marvel book. We'll see see. Yeah, we did yeah but that's not that's not like like a Marvel superior that we might.

03:24:20.22
Steven
Yes.

03:24:32.54
Steven
Ah, hey we've done we've done epic. we've done we've done epic we did alien legion yeah with an actual Marvel book. Yeah yeah, we talked about doing the what the falcon mini series. Um.

03:25:01.32
cbderrick
Yeah, yeah, yeah, the fal committee series in the Hawkeye Minis seriesies and few of the things. But ah, but yeah, but that's it folks. Thank you again. We appreciate it. Ah and we will see you. So.

03:25:06.40
Steven
Right.

03:25:22.58
Steven
Yeah, thanks everybody.